Squandered elite education

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well Yes in that I made similar choices and came from a similar background and think salaries larger than $200K sound made up. No regrets from me though. I’ve been very happy with my life and I love having time and bandwidth and stability to spend time with my kids while still making a huge (to me) salary of $120K. It’s not squandering if you lived a happy and intellectually stimulating life.

You can have that and still make over $400k per year. I do. Spouse makes double that. We're both home for the kids, take them to sports, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Sorry, I was trying to be somewhat anonymous -- I mean how many Ivy league grads work for Fed contractors But I did miss the question about age, but I graduated 95-99 timeframe. For reference, Glassdoor founded in 2007, and LinkedIn in 2002. My first jobs I mailed in my applications!

PP. Thanks, OP, and I owe you an apology. Thanks for coming back and clarifying. I respect your concerns.

I'm also going to post a thread like this that popped up a while ago. One poster included an analogy that I think may soothe your soul - she does a great job of balancing compassion and accountability. This related to a woman who went into the arts and didn't figure out until middle age that all her peers were trust funders - she was MC. The thread also broadly discusses why some people have more savvy than others in figuring this stuff out (a point also raised here).

Here's how this happens. It's not ultra common, but it does happen, and it's not so simple as "make better choices". Because many of the choices are made before the person has the necessary info, and often they are working on information that is bad or very misleading:

- Larla grows up in rural or remote part of the country. Low cost of living, middle or working class parents who don't struggle a ton to make ends meet because low COL. Larla has pleasant childhood without a lot of class strife thanks to this.

- Larla is very good at school, and opportunities in this area are limited. It's not near a larger city. The area doesn't have a ton of arts, culture, or commerce. Larla very quickly develops interest in leaving area because of these limitations and because they are very successful academically, this starts to feel like a real possibility.

- Larla goes to college far away, a "good school" likely with some or a lot of merit aid. Larla's grades and test scores qualified her for school, but her admission probably has a lot to do with her - background too -- these schools like diversity and being from some remote place stands out.

- Maybe the school is in a big city, but maybe in little college town, but either way, winds up in a student population with people from much more cosmopolitan backgrounds. Some are wealthy, some are UMC, some might be MC or WC but from places with greater diversity (of people and experiences). This means everyone understands a lot more about how the world works than Larla, even the other kids on financial aid and who have to work. Larla is straight up naive.

- Larla makes friends, and her friends educate her a bit about the world. The problem is, they are naive too, because they don't even understand what they know. They explain stuff to Larla, but it overemphasizes the fairness of the system. They gloss over stuff like the value of family connections or the fact that they are from families that really, really support and emphasize higher education (something Larla's family probably doesn't value to the same degree because of very different environments and circumstances). Larla starts to think she's figuring things out, but she's only getting a very small part of the picture.

- Larla makes career choices, decides where to move after school, based on her naive assumptions coupled with a pretty incomplete explanation of the world gleaned from young people who are really still just figuring it out. What Larla could really use at this point is a parent or relative who can say "Whoa, wait -- some of these kids have trust funds. Some of them can live in their aunt's apartment while they intern. Some of them have parents who will will do anything to cover the cost of a graduate degree because it's important to them. You need to make different choices based on your specific situation. How about Philly instead of NYC? How about marketing instead of publishing? Maybe what you really want is to write -- get an ed degree, teach high school English, and write! Or pursue an academic degree but get used to living in midwestern college towns, which are at least cheap."

- So instead, Larla figures this out on her own over the course of a decade or so. It's revealed in fits and starts, and often she only learns a key piece of information after it's too late to do much with it (like that an MFA is treated as required in publishing, but has no actual value in terms of earning, something that should actually be a required release of info before anyone enrolls in an MFA program). She also gets deeper into a career and social circle that will simply reinforce her value system, making it harder and harder to pull herself out. She might contemplate moving to Chicago or Portland or Denver, but her NY friends will say "OMG no, I could never" and she's only 28 and her family doesn't understand her anymore either, so she holds onto those values even though they don't serve her.

It's a sucky thing. Yes, she was naive and stupid and made bad choices. But it's also kind of hard to blame her because she's kind of been thrown to the wolves. Her university probably should have offered her some kind of practical economic education, but that would require being honest about their student body and their funding and the value of their degree, so: no. Same with the MFA. Her friends are self-interested in believing that they earned their way (to a degree they may have, in other ways not). Also, Larla doesn't have a stereotypical hard luck upbringing. She's not from poverty, her parents have steady jobs, she had a nice childhood. The fact that it in no way prepared her for the life she is now leading doesn't concern anyone because she is a [almost certainly white] middle class lady with a fancy college degree. It's just that none of those things are really helping her right now and she'd have to go back in time, or totally upend her entire values system, to change it. It's what she should do, but it's understandable that she is struggling.

I feel really bad for people in this situation. This is why it helps to have savvy parents who get how the world works, why you are lucky to find mentors or honest friends who tell it like it is. It can save you. Some people never get that and they get stuck.

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/210/791426.page

Wow, damn, I am Larla! Replace publishing with museum work, and NY with Boston/DC, but that's it.

And I thought I was successful because I have a job in the *high* five figures, even if it's a hefty commute from where I can afford to live to my DC job. That's the sad thing - if it weren't from DCUM, I'd be able to think of my wealthy successful friends as the outliers and me as the norm, but this forum really does have a consistent message that everyone makes six figures with a college degree except morons.

Same here! Does anyone know how to fond others that relate to this is the DC area? Is there like a certain bar they go to or scene/activity or something because I would love to find people that “get it”?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well Yes in that I made similar choices and came from a similar background and think salaries larger than $200K sound made up. No regrets from me though. I’ve been very happy with my life and I love having time and bandwidth and stability to spend time with my kids while still making a huge (to me) salary of $120K. It’s not squandering if you lived a happy and intellectually stimulating life.

You can have that and still make over $400k per year. I do. Spouse makes double that. We're both home for the kids, take them to sports, etc.

Thanks for rubbing it in. Did you read any of this thread before commenting?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow this resonates for me! It feels like shit that people without guidance or role models can often end up making all of the wrong decisions out of pure class ignorance. It sucks because everyone thinks there is something wrong with you.

I don't get it. If you were really working class/middle class, why did you major in English? Pretty much all the non-wealthy students at my Ivy majored in STEM or went to law school or finance.

I’m the pp but not op. I went to trade school so…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow this resonates for me! It feels like shit that people without guidance or role models can often end up making all of the wrong decisions out of pure class ignorance. It sucks because everyone thinks there is something wrong with you.

I don't get it. If you were really working class/middle class, why did you major in English? Pretty much all the non-wealthy students at my Ivy majored in STEM or went to law school or finance.

OP here. I majored in STEM. But a field of STEM famous for low salaries; I loved the science behind it and was prioritized "interesting" and "meaningful" work and an interesting places to live -- without understanding the costs that accompanied such places. A lot of engineering fields outside of CS have higher starting salaries with a BS but plateau very quickly and much lower than the salaries discussed here.

Law/medicine? The prospect of taking out more debt than 4x what parent's house was worth? That was unimaginable. And its a huge risk for LMC students -- what if you get to year 3 of med school and can't complete for whatever reason? It's not like the debt is forgiven...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow this resonates for me! It feels like shit that people without guidance or role models can often end up making all of the wrong decisions out of pure class ignorance. It sucks because everyone thinks there is something wrong with you.

I don't get it. If you were really working class/middle class, why did you major in English? Pretty much all the non-wealthy students at my Ivy majored in STEM or went to law school or finance.

DP: Because the message that many of us got was simply: “Go to college, get a steady job with benefits.” And no one, anywhere, including at our colleges told us anything that went beyond that. I also think you might be wrong about what “pretty much all the non-wealthy students did”. —and/ or the students you went to school with had access to a lot more information than the students that I went to school with, possibly a decade or more before you.

Let me keep repeating this until you get it: You don’t know what you don’t know.

And if no one goes out of their way to show you, teach, you, and expose you to what you don’t know — you still don’t know.
Nice that all the “non-wealthy “ students that you knew went to law school. That takes time and money and support that many of the “non-wealthy “ students that I went to school with simply did not have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow this resonates for me! It feels like shit that people without guidance or role models can often end up making all of the wrong decisions out of pure class ignorance. It sucks because everyone thinks there is something wrong with you.

I don't get it. If you were really working class/middle class, why did you major in English? Pretty much all the non-wealthy students at my Ivy majored in STEM or went to law school or finance.

DP: Because the message that many of us got was simply: “Go to college, get a steady job with benefits.” And no one, anywhere, including at our colleges told us anything that went beyond that. I also think you might be wrong about what “pretty much all the non-wealthy students did”. —and/ or the students you went to school with had access to a lot more information than the students that I went to school with, possibly a decade or more before you.

Let me keep repeating this until you get it: You don’t know what you don’t know.

And if no one goes out of their way to show you, teach, you, and expose you to what you don’t know — you still don’t know.
Nice that all the “non-wealthy “ students that you knew went to law school. That takes time and money and support that many of the “non-wealthy “ students that I went to school with simply did not have.

My counselors all said “follow your passion” and “do what you love and the money will follow”

Major really doesn’t matter anyway. I know a Russian Lit major whose first job was at Goldman. I know many English majors in corporate roles at Disney and Microsoft. The most important things are really internships and those first jobs — it needs to be the right pedigree/path. And most jobs/internships are obtained through networking, so a random MC student won’t have any connections — I literally did not know any professionals except for my pediatrician and dentist and teachers. How would my factory working parents know even an accountant (does H&R Block seasonal worker count)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think you’re having a midlife crisis. This will pass soon enough.

The fact is that an Ivy League education is not the basis of all success, which you are now realizing too late. You have a good life. Be happy.

OP is making a differ t point. Ivy League education is the basis of success and OP feels that they did not grab it when it was in front of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow this resonates for me! It feels like shit that people without guidance or role models can often end up making all of the wrong decisions out of pure class ignorance. It sucks because everyone thinks there is something wrong with you.

I don't get it. If you were really working class/middle class, why did you major in English? Pretty much all the non-wealthy students at my Ivy majored in STEM or went to law school or finance.

DP: Because the message that many of us got was simply: “Go to college, get a steady job with benefits.” And no one, anywhere, including at our colleges told us anything that went beyond that. I also think you might be wrong about what “pretty much all the non-wealthy students did”. —and/ or the students you went to school with had access to a lot more information than the students that I went to school with, possibly a decade or more before you.

Let me keep repeating this until you get it: You don’t know what you don’t know.

And if no one goes out of their way to show you, teach, you, and expose you to what you don’t know — you still don’t know.
Nice that all the “non-wealthy “ students that you knew went to law school. That takes time and money and support that many of the “non-wealthy “ students that I went to school with simply did not have.

My counselors all said “follow your passion” and “do what you love and the money will follow”

Major really doesn’t matter anyway. I know a Russian Lit major whose first job was at Goldman. I know many English majors in corporate roles at Disney and Microsoft. The most important things are really internships and those first jobs — it needs to be the right pedigree/path. And most jobs/internships are obtained through networking, so a random MC student won’t have any connections — I literally did not know any professionals except for my pediatrician and dentist and teachers. How would my factory working parents know even an accountant (does H&R Block seasonal worker count)?

Your parents would not know any more than my small town lawyer dad knew anyone in big law or how to get there. I like what a pp said: you don’t know what you don’t know. As hard as it is, it is the students job to learn as much as they can. All internships are not based on who you know. You need to collect mentors. No one tells you this. Someone should. But you have to try to do the best you can. In my case I was clueless. But I heard a friend apply for something. When I heard it I just knew that was for me. I had better grades,ect so I got it and the rest flows from that. I would not have figured it out on my own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow this resonates for me! It feels like shit that people without guidance or role models can often end up making all of the wrong decisions out of pure class ignorance. It sucks because everyone thinks there is something wrong with you.

I don't get it. If you were really working class/middle class, why did you major in English? Pretty much all the non-wealthy students at my Ivy majored in STEM or went to law school or finance.

DP: Because the message that many of us got was simply: “Go to college, get a steady job with benefits.” And no one, anywhere, including at our colleges told us anything that went beyond that. I also think you might be wrong about what “pretty much all the non-wealthy students did”. —and/ or the students you went to school with had access to a lot more information than the students that I went to school with, possibly a decade or more before you.

Let me keep repeating this until you get it: You don’t know what you don’t know.

And if no one goes out of their way to show you, teach, you, and expose you to what you don’t know — you still don’t know.
Nice that all the “non-wealthy “ students that you knew went to law school. That takes time and money and support that many of the “non-wealthy “ students that I went to school with simply did not have.

My counselors all said “follow your passion” and “do what you love and the money will follow”

Major really doesn’t matter anyway. I know a Russian Lit major whose first job was at Goldman. I know many English majors in corporate roles at Disney and Microsoft. The most important things are really internships and those first jobs — it needs to be the right pedigree/path. And most jobs/internships are obtained through networking, so a random MC student won’t have any connections — I literally did not know any professionals except for my pediatrician and dentist and teachers. How would my factory working parents know even an accountant (does H&R Block seasonal worker count)?

If you were MC at Ivy you use your alumni network. I just had a freshman from my Ivy the other write to me asking me about an internship at my company. Now that is impressive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow this resonates for me! It feels like shit that people without guidance or role models can often end up making all of the wrong decisions out of pure class ignorance. It sucks because everyone thinks there is something wrong with you.

I don't get it. If you were really working class/middle class, why did you major in English? Pretty much all the non-wealthy students at my Ivy majored in STEM or went to law school or finance.

DP: Because the message that many of us got was simply: “Go to college, get a steady job with benefits.” And no one, anywhere, including at our colleges told us anything that went beyond that. I also think you might be wrong about what “pretty much all the non-wealthy students did”. —and/ or the students you went to school with had access to a lot more information than the students that I went to school with, possibly a decade or more before you.

Let me keep repeating this until you get it: You don’t know what you don’t know.

And if no one goes out of their way to show you, teach, you, and expose you to what you don’t know — you still don’t know.
Nice that all the “non-wealthy “ students that you knew went to law school. That takes time and money and support that many of the “non-wealthy “ students that I went to school with simply did not have.

My counselors all said “follow your passion” and “do what you love and the money will follow”

Major really doesn’t matter anyway. I know a Russian Lit major whose first job was at Goldman. I know many English majors in corporate roles at Disney and Microsoft. The most important things are really internships and those first jobs — it needs to be the right pedigree/path. And most jobs/internships are obtained through networking, so a random MC student won’t have any connections — I literally did not know any professionals except for my pediatrician and dentist and teachers. How would my factory working parents know even an accountant (does H&R Block seasonal worker count)?

If you were MC at Ivy you use your alumni network. I just had a freshman from my Ivy the other write to me asking me about an internship at my company. Now that is impressive.

Yes in 2022 with LinkedIn and alumni databases that is totally a thing. I graduated before any of that existed. Maybe there was a printed directory in the career center and I could have mailed them a letter? That would have felt incredibly intrusive...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow this resonates for me! It feels like shit that people without guidance or role models can often end up making all of the wrong decisions out of pure class ignorance. It sucks because everyone thinks there is something wrong with you.

I don't get it. If you were really working class/middle class, why did you major in English? Pretty much all the non-wealthy students at my Ivy majored in STEM or went to law school or finance.

DP: Because the message that many of us got was simply: “Go to college, get a steady job with benefits.” And no one, anywhere, including at our colleges told us anything that went beyond that. I also think you might be wrong about what “pretty much all the non-wealthy students did”. —and/ or the students you went to school with had access to a lot more information than the students that I went to school with, possibly a decade or more before you.

Let me keep repeating this until you get it: You don’t know what you don’t know.

And if no one goes out of their way to show you, teach, you, and expose you to what you don’t know — you still don’t know.
Nice that all the “non-wealthy “ students that you knew went to law school. That takes time and money and support that many of the “non-wealthy “ students that I went to school with simply did not have.

My counselors all said “follow your passion” and “do what you love and the money will follow”

Major really doesn’t matter anyway. I know a Russian Lit major whose first job was at Goldman. I know many English majors in corporate roles at Disney and Microsoft. The most important things are really internships and those first jobs — it needs to be the right pedigree/path. And most jobs/internships are obtained through networking, so a random MC student won’t have any connections — I literally did not know any professionals except for my pediatrician and dentist and teachers. How would my factory working parents know even an accountant (does H&R Block seasonal worker count)?

Your parents would not know any more than my small town lawyer dad knew anyone in big law or how to get there. I like what a pp said: you don’t know what you don’t know. As hard as it is, it is the students job to learn as much as they can. All internships are not based on who you know. You need to collect mentors. No one tells you this. Someone should. But you have to try to do the best you can. In my case I was clueless. But I heard a friend apply for something. When I heard it I just knew that was for me. I had better grades,ect so I got it and the rest flows from that. I would not have figured it out on my own.

Exactly, you networked with someone in the know and were passed that information. I was mostly friends with other financial aid kids -- they were either going back home to paint houses or maybe staying on campus to work with a professor (because housing was provided). The social scene of our campus was very divided by income -- rich kids had cars and went on ski trips etc; aid students took the city bus and spent a lot of free time working campus jobs (I worked 20 hrs/week in dining hall.on top of my STEM job).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow this resonates for me! It feels like shit that people without guidance or role models can often end up making all of the wrong decisions out of pure class ignorance. It sucks because everyone thinks there is something wrong with you.

I don't get it. If you were really working class/middle class, why did you major in English? Pretty much all the non-wealthy students at my Ivy majored in STEM or went to law school or finance.

DP: Because the message that many of us got was simply: “Go to college, get a steady job with benefits.” And no one, anywhere, including at our colleges told us anything that went beyond that. I also think you might be wrong about what “pretty much all the non-wealthy students did”. —and/ or the students you went to school with had access to a lot more information than the students that I went to school with, possibly a decade or more before you.

Let me keep repeating this until you get it: You don’t know what you don’t know.

And if no one goes out of their way to show you, teach, you, and expose you to what you don’t know — you still don’t know.
Nice that all the “non-wealthy “ students that you knew went to law school. That takes time and money and support that many of the “non-wealthy “ students that I went to school with simply did not have.

My counselors all said “follow your passion” and “do what you love and the money will follow”

Major really doesn’t matter anyway. I know a Russian Lit major whose first job was at Goldman. I know many English majors in corporate roles at Disney and Microsoft. The most important things are really internships and those first jobs — it needs to be the right pedigree/path. And most jobs/internships are obtained through networking, so a random MC student won’t have any connections — I literally did not know any professionals except for my pediatrician and dentist and teachers. How would my factory working parents know even an accountant (does H&R Block seasonal worker count)?

If you were MC at Ivy you use your alumni network. I just had a freshman from my Ivy the other write to me asking me about an internship at my company. Now that is impressive.

Yes in 2022 with LinkedIn and alumni databases that is totally a thing. I graduated before any of that existed. Maybe there was a printed directory in the career center and I could have mailed them a letter? That would have felt incredibly intrusive...

There probably was a directory and yes you could have mailed a letter. People appreciate young people taking the initiative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow this resonates for me! It feels like shit that people without guidance or role models can often end up making all of the wrong decisions out of pure class ignorance. It sucks because everyone thinks there is something wrong with you.

I don't get it. If you were really working class/middle class, why did you major in English? Pretty much all the non-wealthy students at my Ivy majored in STEM or went to law school or finance.

DP: Because the message that many of us got was simply: “Go to college, get a steady job with benefits.” And no one, anywhere, including at our colleges told us anything that went beyond that. I also think you might be wrong about what “pretty much all the non-wealthy students did”. —and/ or the students you went to school with had access to a lot more information than the students that I went to school with, possibly a decade or more before you.

Let me keep repeating this until you get it: You don’t know what you don’t know.

And if no one goes out of their way to show you, teach, you, and expose you to what you don’t know — you still don’t know.
Nice that all the “non-wealthy “ students that you knew went to law school. That takes time and money and support that many of the “non-wealthy “ students that I went to school with simply did not have.

My counselors all said “follow your passion” and “do what you love and the money will follow”

Major really doesn’t matter anyway. I know a Russian Lit major whose first job was at Goldman. I know many English majors in corporate roles at Disney and Microsoft. The most important things are really internships and those first jobs — it needs to be the right pedigree/path. And most jobs/internships are obtained through networking, so a random MC student won’t have any connections — I literally did not know any professionals except for my pediatrician and dentist and teachers. How would my factory working parents know even an accountant (does H&R Block seasonal worker count)?

If you were MC at Ivy you use your alumni network. I just had a freshman from my Ivy the other write to me asking me about an internship at my company. Now that is impressive.

Yes in 2022 with LinkedIn and alumni databases that is totally a thing. I graduated before any of that existed. Maybe there was a printed directory in the career center and I could have mailed them a letter? That would have felt incredibly intrusive...

There probably was a directory and yes you could have mailed a letter. People appreciate young people taking the initiative.

You could also have sought out networking events on the campus. They existed in the 2000s while I was there and I am sure recruiting happened when you were there too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow this resonates for me! It feels like shit that people without guidance or role models can often end up making all of the wrong decisions out of pure class ignorance. It sucks because everyone thinks there is something wrong with you.

I don't get it. If you were really working class/middle class, why did you major in English? Pretty much all the non-wealthy students at my Ivy majored in STEM or went to law school or finance.

DP: Because the message that many of us got was simply: “Go to college, get a steady job with benefits.” And no one, anywhere, including at our colleges told us anything that went beyond that. I also think you might be wrong about what “pretty much all the non-wealthy students did”. —and/ or the students you went to school with had access to a lot more information than the students that I went to school with, possibly a decade or more before you.

Let me keep repeating this until you get it: You don’t know what you don’t know.

And if no one goes out of their way to show you, teach, you, and expose you to what you don’t know — you still don’t know.
Nice that all the “non-wealthy “ students that you knew went to law school. That takes time and money and support that many of the “non-wealthy “ students that I went to school with simply did not have.

My counselors all said “follow your passion” and “do what you love and the money will follow”

Major really doesn’t matter anyway. I know a Russian Lit major whose first job was at Goldman. I know many English majors in corporate roles at Disney and Microsoft. The most important things are really internships and those first jobs — it needs to be the right pedigree/path. And most jobs/internships are obtained through networking, so a random MC student won’t have any connections — I literally did not know any professionals except for my pediatrician and dentist and teachers. How would my factory working parents know even an accountant (does H&R Block seasonal worker count)?

If you were MC at Ivy you use your alumni network. I just had a freshman from my Ivy the other write to me asking me about an internship at my company. Now that is impressive.

Yes in 2022 with LinkedIn and alumni databases that is totally a thing. I graduated before any of that existed. Maybe there was a printed directory in the career center and I could have mailed them a letter? That would have felt incredibly intrusive...

There probably was a directory and yes you could have mailed a letter. People appreciate young people taking the initiative.

You could also have sought out networking events on the campus. They existed in the 2000s while I was there and I am sure recruiting happened when you were there too.

I definitely did. But I had no way to really evaluate one company vs another, and its not like they talk about salary or potential long term career path in concrete income terms.