Diversity Equity and Inclusion

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Call me crazy, but I think the goal might be increased diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Yeah, kinda hard to believe that when we just had Fairfax County go on a crusade to target Thomas Jefferson HS on "diversity, equity, and inclusion" grounds for having too many Asians.

It is one thing to say "nobody should be excluded," which is an idea pretty much everyone would support.

When you insist the system has to be gamed to make sure certain groups are advanced, regardless of the actual merit of the individuals in question is when you get into trouble.... and that is what the entire modern D&I effort is about.

I'm confused. Some are arguing that the movement is designed, somehow, to only "target" white people. But you appear to be arguing that is not true. That in fact....it is being used to increase representation of all demographics. That is exactly the point.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/thomas-jefferson-high-diversity-admissions/2021/06/23/26bb7960-d44b-11eb-ae54-515e2f63d37d_story.html
"Prestigious magnet school Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology will welcome the most diverse class of students in recent school history next fall, according to data released Wednesday by Fairfax County Public Schools.

The class will include more Black and Hispanic students than any class admitted in the past four years. It will include fewer Asian students, who have historically made up the vast majority of admitted students, and a larger percentage of female students.

But the biggest jump came in admission offers to economically disadvantaged students, meaning students who qualify for free or reduced-price school meals. In previous years, these students accounted for 2 percent or fewer of all children offered spots at Thomas Jefferson, known as TJ. This year, 25 percent of all students receiving offers are economically disadvantaged, according to Fairfax data."

Holy verbal gymnastics.

If you lump all Asians together as one group then you can claim successfully excluding qualified Asians in favor of less qualified students of other races results in more "diversity," but Asians are 60% of the world's population and represent hundreds of distinct cultures, languages, etc.

I agree with you on the fundamental point that treating all Asians as a homogenous group is not ideal.

But there is a reason the concept has evolved beyond diversity to include equity and inclusion. I think the point is that other populations are "less qualified" for a reason that has nothing to do with their skill or aptitude. Including them in the school and the opportunities it provides helps to remedy that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Call me crazy, but I think the goal might be increased diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Yeah, kinda hard to believe that when we just had Fairfax County go on a crusade to target Thomas Jefferson HS on "diversity, equity, and inclusion" grounds for having too many Asians.

It is one thing to say "nobody should be excluded," which is an idea pretty much everyone would support.

When you insist the system has to be gamed to make sure certain groups are advanced, regardless of the actual merit of the individuals in question is when you get into trouble.... and that is what the entire modern D&I effort is about.

Yea, it’s interesting that the effort to improve diversity at TJ didn’t focus on improving stem education at the younger grades for disadvantaged kids. It’s admittedly harder to do than gaming the admissions process, but that would have been a truly equitable solution.

Shoot, if they were really worried that there were a bunch of qualified students who weren't getting admitted, they could always have created another magnet HS.

Think about how much the population in this region has grown since the creation of TJ, why not make another? Why not make two more?

Because of course getting more qualified kids in wasn't the problem.

If they went from one school to three they would just have gone from one problem to three. Three problems where the race of the students doesn't match the answer they have determined to be correct.

Do you really not see the difficulties in just "making another." And what do you think is "the answer they have determined to be correct"?

You realize NoVA is the richest (by median income) region of the country, right?

Are you actually suggesting that creating another HS is too much of a challenge?


As for the answer they have determined to be correct, obviously one where the races line up the way they think they should.

[Anonymous]

There are many white elites who think that blacks and certain browns (Latinos, but not Indian kids with the long and funny last names) are incapable of succeeding based upon their own merit. These elites also want the PAC votes that supposedly represent those folks. So they create DEI efforts. Many of these elites also sit on Boards (county, corporate, school) and push their agenda by putting in place executive performance metrics based on DEI goals. The greedy execs follow suit. Hence you have what you have which is a general quota system vs. a merit based system that simultaneously creates resentment and does not push all to work as hard to succeed. This lowers standards overall and dilutes the best of the best. What DEI should really focus on is increasing the quality of instruction for those that are truly disadvantaged and should focus on those practicing unfairly. It is harder than a quota system however and doesn’t achieve the elites’ goals as easily. Hence it will never change. It will simply become worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Call me crazy, but I think the goal might be increased diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Yeah, kinda hard to believe that when we just had Fairfax County go on a crusade to target Thomas Jefferson HS on "diversity, equity, and inclusion" grounds for having too many Asians.

It is one thing to say "nobody should be excluded," which is an idea pretty much everyone would support.

When you insist the system has to be gamed to make sure certain groups are advanced, regardless of the actual merit of the individuals in question is when you get into trouble.... and that is what the entire modern D&I effort is about.

I'm confused. Some are arguing that the movement is designed, somehow, to only "target" white people. But you appear to be arguing that is not true. That in fact....it is being used to increase representation of all demographics. That is exactly the point.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/thomas-jefferson-high-diversity-admissions/2021/06/23/26bb7960-d44b-11eb-ae54-515e2f63d37d_story.html
"Prestigious magnet school Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology will welcome the most diverse class of students in recent school history next fall, according to data released Wednesday by Fairfax County Public Schools.

The class will include more Black and Hispanic students than any class admitted in the past four years. It will include fewer Asian students, who have historically made up the vast majority of admitted students, and a larger percentage of female students.

But the biggest jump came in admission offers to economically disadvantaged students, meaning students who qualify for free or reduced-price school meals. In previous years, these students accounted for 2 percent or fewer of all children offered spots at Thomas Jefferson, known as TJ. This year, 25 percent of all students receiving offers are economically disadvantaged, according to Fairfax data."

Holy verbal gymnastics.

If you lump all Asians together as one group then you can claim successfully excluding qualified Asians in favor of less qualified students of other races results in more "diversity," but Asians are 60% of the world's population and represent hundreds of distinct cultures, languages, etc.

I agree with you on the fundamental point that treating all Asians as a homogenous group is not ideal.

But there is a reason the concept has evolved beyond diversity to include equity and inclusion. I think the point is that other populations are "less qualified" for a reason that has nothing to do with their skill or aptitude. Including them in the school and the opportunities it provides helps to remedy that.

There is nothing equitable about trying to game the system to exclude more qualified students/applicants/candidates in favor of less qualified ones on the basis of race.

[Anonymous]

Basically it is like co-ed ultimate frisbee where you are required to have a certain number of women on the field at any time.

Everyone knows this doesn't result in the team being more competitive, but if you want women on the team you have to carve out a spot for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know the longterm political goal of Diversity Equity and Inclusion initiatives? Is there more a focus on this now because baby boomers are retiring and more younger people are needed in the workplace? It seems like eventually when baby boomers retire, younger more diverse people will fill those roles.

Is this a serious question? It can’t be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Call me crazy, but I think the goal might be increased diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Yeah, kinda hard to believe that when we just had Fairfax County go on a crusade to target Thomas Jefferson HS on "diversity, equity, and inclusion" grounds for having too many Asians.

It is one thing to say "nobody should be excluded," which is an idea pretty much everyone would support.

When you insist the system has to be gamed to make sure certain groups are advanced, regardless of the actual merit of the individuals in question is when you get into trouble.... and that is what the entire modern D&I effort is about.

Yea, it’s interesting that the effort to improve diversity at TJ didn’t focus on improving stem education at the younger grades for disadvantaged kids. It’s admittedly harder to do than gaming the admissions process, but that would have been a truly equitable solution.

Shoot, if they were really worried that there were a bunch of qualified students who weren't getting admitted, they could always have created another magnet HS.

Think about how much the population in this region has grown since the creation of TJ, why not make another? Why not make two more?

Because of course getting more qualified kids in wasn't the problem.

If they went from one school to three they would just have gone from one problem to three. Three problems where the race of the students doesn't match the answer they have determined to be correct.

Do you really not see the difficulties in just "making another." And what do you think is "the answer they have determined to be correct"?

You realize NoVA is the richest (by median income) region of the country, right?

Are you actually suggesting that creating another HS is too much of a challenge?


As for the answer they have determined to be correct, obviously one where the races line up the way they think they should.

You answer is circular. What I was asking is what you think "they" have determined the line up should be?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Call me crazy, but I think the goal might be increased diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Yeah, kinda hard to believe that when we just had Fairfax County go on a crusade to target Thomas Jefferson HS on "diversity, equity, and inclusion" grounds for having too many Asians.

It is one thing to say "nobody should be excluded," which is an idea pretty much everyone would support.

When you insist the system has to be gamed to make sure certain groups are advanced, regardless of the actual merit of the individuals in question is when you get into trouble.... and that is what the entire modern D&I effort is about.

I'm confused. Some are arguing that the movement is designed, somehow, to only "target" white people. But you appear to be arguing that is not true. That in fact....it is being used to increase representation of all demographics. That is exactly the point.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/thomas-jefferson-high-diversity-admissions/2021/06/23/26bb7960-d44b-11eb-ae54-515e2f63d37d_story.html
"Prestigious magnet school Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology will welcome the most diverse class of students in recent school history next fall, according to data released Wednesday by Fairfax County Public Schools.

The class will include more Black and Hispanic students than any class admitted in the past four years. It will include fewer Asian students, who have historically made up the vast majority of admitted students, and a larger percentage of female students.

But the biggest jump came in admission offers to economically disadvantaged students, meaning students who qualify for free or reduced-price school meals. In previous years, these students accounted for 2 percent or fewer of all children offered spots at Thomas Jefferson, known as TJ. This year, 25 percent of all students receiving offers are economically disadvantaged, according to Fairfax data."

Holy verbal gymnastics.

If you lump all Asians together as one group then you can claim successfully excluding qualified Asians in favor of less qualified students of other races results in more "diversity," but Asians are 60% of the world's population and represent hundreds of distinct cultures, languages, etc.

I agree with you on the fundamental point that treating all Asians as a homogenous group is not ideal.

But there is a reason the concept has evolved beyond diversity to include equity and inclusion. I think the point is that other populations are "less qualified" for a reason that has nothing to do with their skill or aptitude. Including them in the school and the opportunities it provides helps to remedy that.

There is nothing equitable about trying to game the system to exclude more qualified students/applicants/candidates in favor of less qualified ones on the basis of race.

Actually that is what equity means and it is what makes it distinct from equality. You may not agree that equity should be a goal, but it is exactly what you describe.

https://www.naceweb.org/about-us/equity-definition/
The term “equity” refers to fairness and justice and is distinguished from equality: Whereas equality means providing the same to all, equity means recognizing that we do not all start from the same place and must acknowledge and make adjustments to imbalances. The process is ongoing, requiring us to identify and overcome intentional and unintentional barriers arising from bias or systemic structures.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are many white elites who think that blacks and certain browns (Latinos, but not Indian kids with the long and funny last names) are incapable of succeeding based upon their own merit. These elites also want the PAC votes that supposedly represent those folks. So they create DEI efforts. Many of these elites also sit on Boards (county, corporate, school) and push their agenda by putting in place executive performance metrics based on DEI goals. The greedy execs follow suit. Hence you have what you have which is a general quota system vs. a merit based system that simultaneously creates resentment and does not push all to work as hard to succeed. This lowers standards overall and dilutes the best of the best. What DEI should really focus on is increasing the quality of instruction for those that are truly disadvantaged and should focus on those practicing unfairly. It is harder than a quota system however and doesn’t achieve the elites’ goals as easily. Hence it will never change. It will simply become worse.

Maybe thee are people who believe the bolded. But I think what most people believe is that they are capable, but success based on merit is more difficult due to societal structures and systems.

I agree with you that there should be focus on increasing educational opportunities and quality for the disadvantaged, and there is one.

[Anonymous]

I am interested in merit and if this goes too far I am out of here- not going to raise my kids as second glass citizens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am interested in merit and if this goes too far I am out of here- not going to raise my kids as second glass citizens.

Bye!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Call me crazy, but I think the goal might be increased diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Yeah, kinda hard to believe that when we just had Fairfax County go on a crusade to target Thomas Jefferson HS on "diversity, equity, and inclusion" grounds for having too many Asians.

It is one thing to say "nobody should be excluded," which is an idea pretty much everyone would support.

When you insist the system has to be gamed to make sure certain groups are advanced, regardless of the actual merit of the individuals in question is when you get into trouble.... and that is what the entire modern D&I effort is about.

I'm confused. Some are arguing that the movement is designed, somehow, to only "target" white people. But you appear to be arguing that is not true. That in fact....it is being used to increase representation of all demographics. That is exactly the point.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/thomas-jefferson-high-diversity-admissions/2021/06/23/26bb7960-d44b-11eb-ae54-515e2f63d37d_story.html
"Prestigious magnet school Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology will welcome the most diverse class of students in recent school history next fall, according to data released Wednesday by Fairfax County Public Schools.

The class will include more Black and Hispanic students than any class admitted in the past four years. It will include fewer Asian students, who have historically made up the vast majority of admitted students, and a larger percentage of female students.

But the biggest jump came in admission offers to economically disadvantaged students, meaning students who qualify for free or reduced-price school meals. In previous years, these students accounted for 2 percent or fewer of all children offered spots at Thomas Jefferson, known as TJ. This year, 25 percent of all students receiving offers are economically disadvantaged, according to Fairfax data."

Holy verbal gymnastics.

If you lump all Asians together as one group then you can claim successfully excluding qualified Asians in favor of less qualified students of other races results in more "diversity," but Asians are 60% of the world's population and represent hundreds of distinct cultures, languages, etc.

I agree with you on the fundamental point that treating all Asians as a homogenous group is not ideal.

But there is a reason the concept has evolved beyond diversity to include equity and inclusion. I think the point is that other populations are "less qualified" for a reason that has nothing to do with their skill or aptitude. Including them in the school and the opportunities it provides helps to remedy that.

There is nothing equitable about trying to game the system to exclude more qualified students/applicants/candidates in favor of less qualified ones on the basis of race.

Actually that is what equity means and it is what makes it distinct from equality. You may not agree that equity should be a goal, but it is exactly what you describe.

https://www.naceweb.org/about-us/equity-definition/
The term “equity” refers to fairness and justice and is distinguished from equality: Whereas equality means providing the same to all, equity means recognizing that we do not all start from the same place and must acknowledge and make adjustments to imbalances. The process is ongoing, requiring us to identify and overcome intentional and unintentional barriers arising from bias or systemic structures.

...and of course we get to decide who needs which "adjustment" based on their race. If their skin is dark they must be disadvantaged. If their skin is white (or Asian) they must be advantaged.

The whole thing is designed to sound reasonable to a child.

If the system were based on parental income, education level, etc etc, few would complain. Of course any kind of a color-blind solution is anathema to the diversity crowd.

[Anonymous]

One problem is that concepts like equity, merit, and justice are all very subjective. if you've raised kids, you've inevitably heard them complain about fairness.

[Anonymous]

Questions of "privilege" are also very subjective. Everyone is inclined to look at the rung above them and complain about that group's privilege while ignoring their own. Everyone in the 21st century United States is privileged.

[Anonymous]

All I know is the idea that we have had a meritocracy anywhere in this country is laughable.

I mean come on. Raise your hand if you've ever worked somewhere where the most capable people (usually women in my experience) were overlooked for promotions in favor of inexperienced, incompetent candidates (usually men in my experience, yours might be different).

So many uninspiring incompetent upper management / admin staff pulling the big bucks while the sharper worker bees who know what they’re doing get nothing. Meritocracy has nothing to do with it.