Can we have an honest, good faith conversation about fat acceptance and body positivity?

[Anonymous]

I can no longer accept obesity as something normal and desirable. I am seeing people die in my home country of COVID and we need to recognize that obesity is a co-morbidity.

Just like extreme thinness of anorexia is a life threatening condition so is obesity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure in any scenario body positivity or negativity is the right approach.

Body neutrality seems to me to be the goal.

_Negates the need to be be positive about things that are not, but rather, just accepts them as they are without any neg or pos feedback. At a personal level, this neutrality will lead to more personal change than self hate or forced positivity could.

_Discrimination. If we stop looking at bodies as bad or good, we can better examine/eliminate our own biases.

__Public Health. Being neutral about body image can lead to better health outcomes as the message about health versus looks really sinks in.

I agree with this. I would love a world that was neutral towards bodies, except for the natural preferences people have regarding sexual attraction and aesthetics. But all bodies should be accepted in the public sphere, in schools, in workplaces. You can address public health issues without shaming or celebrating any particular body type. We would still have lots of variety in body types even if everyone was getting proper nutrition and regular exercise. Fit and healthy doesn't mean size 0. Bodies really do come in all shapes and sizes.

I actually find body positivity oppresses because it insists you "celebrate" your body. I am grateful to my body. Sometimes I want to show it off, sometimes I want to cover it up. What I do with my body is my business. I don't like other people telling me how to feel about my body, whether they are telling me to be ashamed or telling me to be proud. It's not up to you.

That's why I like fat acceptance. You don't have to celebrate fat bodies. You don't have to like them. But you have to accept that they exist, and you can't deny people rights or happiness because they are fat.The end.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a thin, middle class person of color with rather left leaning politics. I've been grappling with a lot of friends online and IRL over body positivity and fatphobia, fat acceptance, and body positivity as a kind of identity.

I know this conversation usually gets derailed, or it just goes back and forth between people saying that body positivity is glorifying obesity, promoting unhealthy lifestyles, and making the obesity epidemic worse vs people saying that fatshaming does not work, it's not other people's business, and that fat-shamers don't *actually* care about health.

My own take on this is that I find that body positivity, which was once oriented to people of ALL body types trying to be healthy and love themselves, is now primarily led by people who are actually shaming obese people for LOSING weight and getting healthier, because it's "diet culture" and "the patriarchy." From a social justice and health perspective, what concerns me the most is how obesity is being handled with respect to Covid, and the politics of it. With the pandemic, the social justice, progressive position has been to mask up, social distance, and take maximal precaution - even unnecessary, symbolic precautions, like pulling up a mask when you cross someone's path - to show solidarity. If we are that vigilant about Covid, why aren't we as vigilant and obsessive about obesity, which kills a lot more people, especially low income POC? I know you can't "catch" obesity from a passerby, but the socioeconomic and cultural conditions that lead to obesity are indeed contagious. What bothers me as a progressive, social justice-oriented person is that instead of applying the hypervigilance and health-aware measures from the pandemic onto the obesity epidemic, we've instead addressed obesity or "size diversity" or "Fat acceptance" as a social identity.

As a person of color, I initially resented the idea of equating "size discrimination" with racism. Racism in this country has a long and violent history. Race is an immutable characteristic and to equate it with obesity is to assume that being POC is inherently negative characteristic.

However, someone else made a VERY GOOD POINT: Ableism. If ableism/discrimination against people with physical handicaps is bad (it is), then is "size discrimination" along those same lines? Is discrimination against the obese - like requiring obese people to purchase the two seats - the same as not being wheelchair accessible?

I think body positivity in its original form is good and can also be applied against ableism. People with disabilities should love themselves as they are and should live their best lives regardless of beauty standards. Likewise, with obesity, I think economic and societal conditions should be considered before judgments are made, and medical discrimination (doctors dismissing and reducing all health concerns of overweight people to just being fat) is as real as medical racism. So body positivity has a role. But somewhere along the line, it seems like body positivity is being used as a message to say that we've given up trying to address the obesity epidemic, and even shamed others for trying to lose weight, saying it's "the patriarchy" or "white supremacy" or whatever.

Hmm..

I think body positivity should be about accepting all shapes (small and large breasts, apple and pear shape), but not accepting obesity. That shouldn't be "acceptable." It doesn't mean be rude or shun obese people, but it should be looked at the same as someone who smokes, has drug addiction, drinks too much. It is self-imposed health problem rooted from consuming too much. There are medical conditions that slow metabolism and mobility, but these don't make someone overweight- eating more than you burn is what does. Inability to control food intake/impulses is real and have medical consequences. But I don't think it is fair to charge for a double airline ticket or discriminate. People with kids get to check a stroller for free and carry kid on lap for no charge. Having kids is a choice. People with a wheelchair are accommodated. No one asks if they are in a wheelchair because of lifestyle choices, nor does it matter. Same for obesity. It is an epidemic and a reality of our society. Airlines need to make seats bigger. Businesses need to find ways to accommodate. It just is what it is.

Do you have cites for your medical opinions? Because there are medical conditions that cause obesity no matter how much you try to starve yourself.

Name some conditions that cause someone to be obese no matter what they eat, how much they eat, and how much they move? Then tell me what percent of the population has said condition. You won’t find any. All of the medical conditions that “cause” obesity, don’t really cause it, but contribute by way of increasing appetite, slowing metabolism, decreasing mobility- but all of these things can be counteracted with the right diet. There may be some obscure rare disease that does indeed cause obesity, but that is not vast majority of the 60+ percent overweight people in the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can no longer accept obesity as something normal and desirable. I am seeing people die in my home country of COVID and we need to recognize that obesity is a co-morbidity.

Just like extreme thinness of anorexia is a life threatening condition so is obesity.

And how, pray tell, do you address the anorexics? Do you shame them into dieting, call them names and criticize them for their moral failures?

[Anonymous]

My own take on this is that I find that body positivity, which was once oriented to people of ALL body types trying to be healthy and love themselves, is now primarily led by people who are actually shaming obese people for LOSING weight and getting healthier, because it's "diet culture" and "the patriarchy."

I just don't think this is true. I think that these instances are the most controversial and so they get the most posts and traction online, but I don't think it's in any way primary. 90% of body positivity is still showcasing bigger or different body types in positive ways formally reserved only for very thin bodies. If you're not fat than you probably don't follow body positive Instas or Tumblrs or whatever, and you only see the stuff that goes viral. And while 5-10 years ago "fat woman not stoned for wearing bikini" was shocking enough on its own to go viral, now that's been somewhat mainstreamed so the shocking stuff is when people get pushback for losing weight, so that's the clickbait that gets passed around.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

My own take on this is that I find that body positivity, which was once oriented to people of ALL body types trying to be healthy and love themselves, is now primarily led by people who are actually shaming obese people for LOSING weight and getting healthier, because it's "diet culture" and "the patriarchy."

I just don't think this is true. I think that these instances are the most controversial and so they get the most posts and traction online, but I don't think it's in any way primary. 90% of body positivity is still showcasing bigger or different body types in positive ways formerly* reserved only for very thin bodies. If you're not fat than you probably don't follow body positive Instas or Tumblrs or whatever, and you only see the stuff that goes viral. And while 5-10 years ago "fat woman not stoned for wearing bikini" was shocking enough on its own to go viral, now that's been somewhat mainstreamed so the shocking stuff is when people get pushback for losing weight, so that's the clickbait that gets passed around.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What role does metabolism play into this? What about genes?

Huge. Both of them.

But not nearly as much as our diet and what foods are affordable, available and subsidized.

[Anonymous]

As a scientist working in the medical field, I can’t relate to any of this.

The increased prevalence of obesity-induced diabetes, hypertension, cardiac issues and obesity-linked cancers are costing this country MORE THAN A HUNDRED BILLION A YEAR.

YOU and your children are paying this price through taxes and a deeply unequal, access-challenged and expensive healthcare and pharmaceutical system.

When are Americans going to wake up and realize that talking about feelings is less important than saving lives, increasing quality of life, and providing more access to better and cheaper healthcare?

It’s like debating when is the right time to discuss gun control after a mass shooting. No, the gun control should have happened already.

Or like debating individual liberties in a pandemic. No, just wear the mask.

Here, it’s: just shut up and try not to be so out of control you give yourself diabetes, the treatment for which society has to pay for.

The point is - as usual, you’re not discussing the right thing. Please talk about sustainable healthcare. We all must do our part to stay healthy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can no longer accept obesity as something normal and desirable. I am seeing people die in my home country of COVID and we need to recognize that obesity is a co-morbidity.

Just like extreme thinness of anorexia is a life threatening condition so is obesity.

Yes, I mean people have got to stop ripping out magazine photos of 250-pound models and thinking, "please let me look like them!"


PP absolutely ZERO people think obesity is desirable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a scientist working in the medical field, I can’t relate to any of this.

The increased prevalence of obesity-induced diabetes, hypertension, cardiac issues and obesity-linked cancers are costing this country MORE THAN A HUNDRED BILLION A YEAR.

YOU and your children are paying this price through taxes and a deeply unequal, access-challenged and expensive healthcare and pharmaceutical system.

When are Americans going to wake up and realize that talking about feelings is less important than saving lives, increasing quality of life, and providing more access to better and cheaper healthcare?

It’s like debating when is the right time to discuss gun control after a mass shooting. No, the gun control should have happened already.

Or like debating individual liberties in a pandemic. No, just wear the mask.

Here, it’s: just shut up and try not to be so out of control you give yourself diabetes, the treatment for which society has to pay for.

The point is - as usual, you’re not discussing the right thing. Please talk about sustainable healthcare. We all must do our part to stay healthy.

Ok, so evidence-based friend, how do you think we should be talking about it. Because, again, we have thousands upon thousands of data points showing that fat shaming and dieting don't work. So, what's your solution?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What role does metabolism play into this? What about genes?

Huge. Both of them.

But not nearly as much as our diet and what foods are affordable, available and subsidized.

Not that fast. Genetics (and hormones) definitely play role in how our diet affect our body. Some people are genetically predisposed to metabolic issues.
You can have 2 people with same diet, and yet different weight.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What role does metabolism play into this? What about genes?

Huge. Both of them.

But not nearly as much as our diet and what foods are affordable, available and subsidized.

Not that fast. Genetics (and hormones) definitely play role in how our diet affect our body. Some people are genetically predisposed to metabolic issues.
You can have 2 people with same diet, and yet different weight.

Clearly, the heavier one is the lazier one./s

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can no longer accept obesity as something normal and desirable. I am seeing people die in my home country of COVID and we need to recognize that obesity is a co-morbidity.

Just like extreme thinness of anorexia is a life threatening condition so is obesity.

And how, pray tell, do you address the anorexics? Do you shame them into dieting, call them names and criticize them for their moral failures?

No one shames anyone in the entire world unless the people are being inconvenienced in some way (sitting next to an obese person in the airplane and being squished).

Do I find pictures of obese or skeletal people in bikinis appealing in ads? No. In a documentary, maybe.

Do I have a right to judge them? No. I feel pity for their health condition. If the unhealthy person is my child and us not an adult then I will try and make them eat in a healthy manner and get them professional health. As a parent, that isn't responsibility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can no longer accept obesity as something normal and desirable. I am seeing people die in my home country of COVID and we need to recognize that obesity is a co-morbidity.

Just like extreme thinness of anorexia is a life threatening condition so is obesity.

And how, pray tell, do you address the anorexics? Do you shame them into dieting, call them names and criticize them for their moral failures?

No one shames anyone in the entire world unless the people are being inconvenienced in some way (sitting next to an obese person in the airplane and being squished).

Do I find pictures of obese or skeletal people in bikinis appealing in ads? No. In a documentary, maybe.

Do I have a right to judge them? No. I feel pity for their health condition. If the unhealthy person is my child and is not an adult then I will try and make them eat in a healthy manner and get them professional help. As a parent, that is my responsibility.

Ugh phone autocorrect. Fixed now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd be happy if we could just decouple weight from morality and see it for the public health issue that it is. We have decided that obese people are moral failures, and therefore the solution is for them to be better -- more disciplined, more virtuous in their food choices, more self-denying. When, in fact, a lot of obesity is the result of systemic issues: cheap highly processed food, corn subsidies, food deserts, people unable to cook healthy food for themselves because they are too busy, sleep deprivation, etc., etc., etc.

If we could just separate those things so that your weight is a matter of personal preference and health, not shame.

Agree 1000000000000%

^^^^

Also trauma.

Most my friend who were rape victims have weight issues in both direction.

It’s not as much of a choice as the moral high ground would like to think.

And genetics, hormone imbalances, changes from cancer/ chemo (some of the largest people I know are pituitary or thyroid cancer survivors).