Can we have an honest, good faith conversation about fat acceptance and body positivity?

[Anonymous]

I'm a thin, middle class person of color with rather left leaning politics. I've been grappling with a lot of friends online and IRL over body positivity and fatphobia, fat acceptance, and body positivity as a kind of identity.

I know this conversation usually gets derailed, or it just goes back and forth between people saying that body positivity is glorifying obesity, promoting unhealthy lifestyles, and making the obesity epidemic worse vs people saying that fatshaming does not work, it's not other people's business, and that fat-shamers don't *actually* care about health.

My own take on this is that I find that body positivity, which was once oriented to people of ALL body types trying to be healthy and love themselves, is now primarily led by people who are actually shaming obese people for LOSING weight and getting healthier, because it's "diet culture" and "the patriarchy." From a social justice and health perspective, what concerns me the most is how obesity is being handled with respect to Covid, and the politics of it. With the pandemic, the social justice, progressive position has been to mask up, social distance, and take maximal precaution - even unnecessary, symbolic precautions, like pulling up a mask when you cross someone's path - to show solidarity. If we are that vigilant about Covid, why aren't we as vigilant and obsessive about obesity, which kills a lot more people, especially low income POC? I know you can't "catch" obesity from a passerby, but the socioeconomic and cultural conditions that lead to obesity are indeed contagious. What bothers me as a progressive, social justice-oriented person is that instead of applying the hypervigilance and health-aware measures from the pandemic onto the obesity epidemic, we've instead addressed obesity or "size diversity" or "Fat acceptance" as a social identity.

As a person of color, I initially resented the idea of equating "size discrimination" with racism. Racism in this country has a long and violent history. Race is an immutable characteristic and to equate it with obesity is to assume that being POC is inherently negative characteristic.

However, someone else made a VERY GOOD POINT: Ableism. If ableism/discrimination against people with physical handicaps is bad (it is), then is "size discrimination" along those same lines? Is discrimination against the obese - like requiring obese people to purchase the two seats - the same as not being wheelchair accessible?

I think body positivity in its original form is good and can also be applied against ableism. People with disabilities should love themselves as they are and should live their best lives regardless of beauty standards. Likewise, with obesity, I think economic and societal conditions should be considered before judgments are made, and medical discrimination (doctors dismissing and reducing all health concerns of overweight people to just being fat) is as real as medical racism. So body positivity has a role. But somewhere along the line, it seems like body positivity is being used as a message to say that we've given up trying to address the obesity epidemic, and even shamed others for trying to lose weight, saying it's "the patriarchy" or "white supremacy" or whatever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a thin, middle class person of color with rather left leaning politics. I've been grappling with a lot of friends online and IRL over body positivity and fatphobia, fat acceptance, and body positivity as a kind of identity.

I know this conversation usually gets derailed, or it just goes back and forth between people saying that body positivity is glorifying obesity, promoting unhealthy lifestyles, and making the obesity epidemic worse vs people saying that fatshaming does not work, it's not other people's business, and that fat-shamers don't *actually* care about health.

My own take on this is that I find that body positivity, which was once oriented to people of ALL body types trying to be healthy and love themselves, is now primarily led by people who are actually shaming obese people for LOSING weight and getting healthier, because it's "diet culture" and "the patriarchy." From a social justice and health perspective, what concerns me the most is how obesity is being handled with respect to Covid, and the politics of it. With the pandemic, the social justice, progressive position has been to mask up, social distance, and take maximal precaution - even unnecessary, symbolic precautions, like pulling up a mask when you cross someone's path - to show solidarity. If we are that vigilant about Covid, why aren't we as vigilant and obsessive about obesity, which kills a lot more people, especially low income POC? I know you can't "catch" obesity from a passerby, but the socioeconomic and cultural conditions that lead to obesity are indeed contagious. What bothers me as a progressive, social justice-oriented person is that instead of applying the hypervigilance and health-aware measures from the pandemic onto the obesity epidemic, we've instead addressed obesity or "size diversity" or "Fat acceptance" as a social identity.

As a person of color, I initially resented the idea of equating "size discrimination" with racism. Racism in this country has a long and violent history. Race is an immutable characteristic and to equate it with obesity is to assume that being POC is inherently negative characteristic.

However, someone else made a VERY GOOD POINT: Ableism. If ableism/discrimination against people with physical handicaps is bad (it is), then is "size discrimination" along those same lines? Is discrimination against the obese - like requiring obese people to purchase the two seats - the same as not being wheelchair accessible?

I think body positivity in its original form is good and can also be applied against ableism. People with disabilities should love themselves as they are and should live their best lives regardless of beauty standards. Likewise, with obesity, I think economic and societal conditions should be considered before judgments are made, and medical discrimination (doctors dismissing and reducing all health concerns of overweight people to just being fat) is as real as medical racism. So body positivity has a role. But somewhere along the line, it seems like body positivity is being used as a message to say that we've given up trying to address the obesity epidemic, and even shamed others for trying to lose weight, saying it's "the patriarchy" or "white supremacy" or whatever.

Hmm..

I think body positivity should be about accepting all shapes (small and large breasts, apple and pear shape), but not accepting obesity. That shouldn't be "acceptable." It doesn't mean be rude or shun obese people, but it should be looked at the same as someone who smokes, has drug addiction, drinks too much. It is self-imposed health problem rooted from consuming too much. There are medical conditions that slow metabolism and mobility, but these don't make someone overweight- eating more than you burn is what does. Inability to control food intake/impulses is real and have medical consequences. But I don't think it is fair to charge for a double airline ticket or discriminate. People with kids get to check a stroller for free and carry kid on lap for no charge. Having kids is a choice. People with a wheelchair are accommodated. No one asks if they are in a wheelchair because of lifestyle choices, nor does it matter. Same for obesity. It is an epidemic and a reality of our society. Airlines need to make seats bigger. Businesses need to find ways to accommodate. It just is what it is.

[Anonymous]

I agree with OP and PP except for the charging of airline seats. Strollers can be folded and stored up front or in cargo. Kids on laps don’t take up more space. A person too wide for one seat will cost the airline the price of another seat. It’s not discriminatory to make them pay for something they are using that prevents airline from selling that seat. If I fly with my cello, I need to buy a seat for it. Is that discrimination against musicians?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a thin, middle class person of color with rather left leaning politics. I've been grappling with a lot of friends online and IRL over body positivity and fatphobia, fat acceptance, and body positivity as a kind of identity.

I know this conversation usually gets derailed, or it just goes back and forth between people saying that body positivity is glorifying obesity, promoting unhealthy lifestyles, and making the obesity epidemic worse vs people saying that fatshaming does not work, it's not other people's business, and that fat-shamers don't *actually* care about health.

My own take on this is that I find that body positivity, which was once oriented to people of ALL body types trying to be healthy and love themselves, is now primarily led by people who are actually shaming obese people for LOSING weight and getting healthier, because it's "diet culture" and "the patriarchy." From a social justice and health perspective, what concerns me the most is how obesity is being handled with respect to Covid, and the politics of it. With the pandemic, the social justice, progressive position has been to mask up, social distance, and take maximal precaution - even unnecessary, symbolic precautions, like pulling up a mask when you cross someone's path - to show solidarity. If we are that vigilant about Covid, why aren't we as vigilant and obsessive about obesity, which kills a lot more people, especially low income POC? I know you can't "catch" obesity from a passerby, but the socioeconomic and cultural conditions that lead to obesity are indeed contagious. What bothers me as a progressive, social justice-oriented person is that instead of applying the hypervigilance and health-aware measures from the pandemic onto the obesity epidemic, we've instead addressed obesity or "size diversity" or "Fat acceptance" as a social identity.

As a person of color, I initially resented the idea of equating "size discrimination" with racism. Racism in this country has a long and violent history. Race is an immutable characteristic and to equate it with obesity is to assume that being POC is inherently negative characteristic.

However, someone else made a VERY GOOD POINT: Ableism. If ableism/discrimination against people with physical handicaps is bad (it is), then is "size discrimination" along those same lines? Is discrimination against the obese - like requiring obese people to purchase the two seats - the same as not being wheelchair accessible?

I think body positivity in its original form is good and can also be applied against ableism. People with disabilities should love themselves as they are and should live their best lives regardless of beauty standards. Likewise, with obesity, I think economic and societal conditions should be considered before judgments are made, and medical discrimination (doctors dismissing and reducing all health concerns of overweight people to just being fat) is as real as medical racism. So body positivity has a role. But somewhere along the line, it seems like body positivity is being used as a message to say that we've given up trying to address the obesity epidemic, and even shamed others for trying to lose weight, saying it's "the patriarchy" or "white supremacy" or whatever.

Not the same. In the case of airlines, if someone is so overweight that they are taking up two seats, why shouldn't they have to pay? Airlines are a profit driven business. Profit margins for airlines are already razor thin when you take into account operating costs and fuel, so they aren't going to be giving seats away for free. And if you're the passenger seated next to an obese person who is spilling over into your seat, why should your flying experience have to be diminished? You paid for your seat just the same as them and you would absolutely be justified in complaining.

Combatting the obesity epidemic in this country has to start with putting more regulations on the big food industry and chain restaurants. Also equity in access to healthy food in low income areas is a huge problem as well.

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure in any scenario body positivity or negativity is the right approach.

Body neutrality seems to me to be the goal.

_Negates the need to be be positive about things that are not, but rather, just accepts them as they are without any neg or pos feedback. At a personal level, this neutrality will lead to more personal change than self hate or forced positivity could.

_Discrimination. If we stop looking at bodies as bad or good, we can better examine/eliminate our own biases.

__Public Health. Being neutral about body image can lead to better health outcomes as the message about health versus looks really sinks in.

[Anonymous]

Very sincerely OP, instead of posing this question to DCUM, I suggest you find a couple of WOC body positivity activists on social media. They are out there engaging in the conversation and will come to the table sharing your perspective on race issues.

[Anonymous]

I'd be happy if we could just decouple weight from morality and see it for the public health issue that it is. We have decided that obese people are moral failures, and therefore the solution is for them to be better -- more disciplined, more virtuous in their food choices, more self-denying. When, in fact, a lot of obesity is the result of systemic issues: cheap highly processed food, corn subsidies, food deserts, people unable to cook healthy food for themselves because they are too busy, sleep deprivation, etc., etc., etc.

If we could just separate those things so that your weight is a matter of personal preference and health, not shame.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a thin, middle class person of color with rather left leaning politics. I've been grappling with a lot of friends online and IRL over body positivity and fatphobia, fat acceptance, and body positivity as a kind of identity.

I know this conversation usually gets derailed, or it just goes back and forth between people saying that body positivity is glorifying obesity, promoting unhealthy lifestyles, and making the obesity epidemic worse vs people saying that fatshaming does not work, it's not other people's business, and that fat-shamers don't *actually* care about health.

My own take on this is that I find that body positivity, which was once oriented to people of ALL body types trying to be healthy and love themselves, is now primarily led by people who are actually shaming obese people for LOSING weight and getting healthier, because it's "diet culture" and "the patriarchy." From a social justice and health perspective, what concerns me the most is how obesity is being handled with respect to Covid, and the politics of it. With the pandemic, the social justice, progressive position has been to mask up, social distance, and take maximal precaution - even unnecessary, symbolic precautions, like pulling up a mask when you cross someone's path - to show solidarity. If we are that vigilant about Covid, why aren't we as vigilant and obsessive about obesity, which kills a lot more people, especially low income POC? I know you can't "catch" obesity from a passerby, but the socioeconomic and cultural conditions that lead to obesity are indeed contagious. What bothers me as a progressive, social justice-oriented person is that instead of applying the hypervigilance and health-aware measures from the pandemic onto the obesity epidemic, we've instead addressed obesity or "size diversity" or "Fat acceptance" as a social identity.

As a person of color, I initially resented the idea of equating "size discrimination" with racism. Racism in this country has a long and violent history. Race is an immutable characteristic and to equate it with obesity is to assume that being POC is inherently negative characteristic.

However, someone else made a VERY GOOD POINT: Ableism. If ableism/discrimination against people with physical handicaps is bad (it is), then is "size discrimination" along those same lines? Is discrimination against the obese - like requiring obese people to purchase the two seats - the same as not being wheelchair accessible?

I think body positivity in its original form is good and can also be applied against ableism. People with disabilities should love themselves as they are and should live their best lives regardless of beauty standards. Likewise, with obesity, I think economic and societal conditions should be considered before judgments are made, and medical discrimination (doctors dismissing and reducing all health concerns of overweight people to just being fat) is as real as medical racism. So body positivity has a role. But somewhere along the line, it seems like body positivity is being used as a message to say that we've given up trying to address the obesity epidemic, and even shamed others for trying to lose weight, saying it's "the patriarchy" or "white supremacy" or whatever.

Hmm..

I think body positivity should be about accepting all shapes (small and large breasts, apple and pear shape), but not accepting obesity. That shouldn't be "acceptable." It doesn't mean be rude or shun obese people, but it should be looked at the same as someone who smokes, has drug addiction, drinks too much. It is self-imposed health problem rooted from consuming too much. There are medical conditions that slow metabolism and mobility, but these don't make someone overweight- eating more than you burn is what does. Inability to control food intake/impulses is real and have medical consequences. But I don't think it is fair to charge for a double airline ticket or discriminate. People with kids get to check a stroller for free and carry kid on lap for no charge. Having kids is a choice. People with a wheelchair are accommodated. No one asks if they are in a wheelchair because of lifestyle choices, nor does it matter. Same for obesity. It is an epidemic and a reality of our society. Airlines need to make seats bigger. Businesses need to find ways to accommodate. It just is what it is.

Do you have cites for your medical opinions? Because there are medical conditions that cause obesity no matter how much you try to starve yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'd be happy if we could just decouple weight from morality and see it for the public health issue that it is. We have decided that obese people are moral failures, and therefore the solution is for them to be better -- more disciplined, more virtuous in their food choices, more self-denying. When, in fact, a lot of obesity is the result of systemic issues: cheap highly processed food, corn subsidies, food deserts, people unable to cook healthy food for themselves because they are too busy, sleep deprivation, etc., etc., etc.

If we could just separate those things so that your weight is a matter of personal preference and health, not shame.

Agree 1000000000000%

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'd be happy if we could just decouple weight from morality and see it for the public health issue that it is. We have decided that obese people are moral failures, and therefore the solution is for them to be better -- more disciplined, more virtuous in their food choices, more self-denying. When, in fact, a lot of obesity is the result of systemic issues: cheap highly processed food, corn subsidies, food deserts, people unable to cook healthy food for themselves because they are too busy, sleep deprivation, etc., etc., etc.

If we could just separate those things so that your weight is a matter of personal preference and health, not shame.

Amen to this!!!!

Also, if 99% of people who try diets wind up gaining all the weight back....then that means that solution isn't a solution.

[Anonymous]

First of all, you’ve absolutely got it backwards with body positivity. The modern movement was born in the 60s to specifically champion the rights of fat people and to fight against fat-shaming. It was later co-opted to be more broadly about all bodies being beautiful. What you’re seeing now is fat people trying to reclaim it.

[Anonymous]

Regarding 2 seats devoted to one obese person on a flight, from a practical standpoint something needs to be done. Either require the purchase of 2 seats or disclosure of the need for “2 seats for 1” well in advance. I was once seated next to a morbidly obese woman on a fully booked flight, with the woman taking up half of my seat and everyone pretending it was ok. I literally had to sit sideways with my legs in the aisle in order for all of me and part of her to fit in my seat. This was good for no one, including her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd be happy if we could just decouple weight from morality and see it for the public health issue that it is. We have decided that obese people are moral failures, and therefore the solution is for them to be better -- more disciplined, more virtuous in their food choices, more self-denying. When, in fact, a lot of obesity is the result of systemic issues: cheap highly processed food, corn subsidies, food deserts, people unable to cook healthy food for themselves because they are too busy, sleep deprivation, etc., etc., etc.

If we could just separate those things so that your weight is a matter of personal preference and health, not shame.

Agree 1000000000000%

^^^^

Also trauma.

Most my friend who were rape victims have weight issues in both direction.

It’s not as much of a choice as the moral high ground would like to think.

[Anonymous]

What role does metabolism play into this? What about genes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What role does metabolism play into this? What about genes?

Huge. Both of them.