When one kid hurts another -- what's reasonable?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it a chronic situation or a one-time event? Is the one you are assuming was aggressive remorseful or unrepentant? How does the injured kid feel about it?

Both kids are pretty intensely competitive, and there is a complicated dynamic with a fair amount of jealousy between them.

The adults who saw it, and who are themselves pretty athletic and competitive and involved in youth sports, are pretty clear that a line was crossed. Honestly, I'm not athletic enough that I think I could make that judgement, but there does seem to be consensus that it was intentional aggression, and not just rough play, perhaps related to the jealousy dynamic.

After it happened, uninjured kid apologized, but also seemed resentful that the other kid was getting attention. Both kids were very focused on figuring out who won the game, which revolved around the question of free throws and who could sub for the injured player. Eventually they negotiated something, which resulted in the injured kid winning. The injured kid seems to think of this as a resolution, that losing the game was the logical consequence and now the score is even. The kids have been separated since then, not as a consequence but because adults are off work for the holiday, so they're home with their respective parents.

The kid who shoved was wrong, no doubt about it. However, the bolded is concerning.

Rivalry and jealousy between kids stems primarily from one thing only - the parent/guardian dynamic and interactions with those kids. If you want to change the way the kids get along then the adults in your environment need to change the way they interact with each other and with the kids. Yes there are factors like personality and birth order, and experiences outside the family and family unit, but by and large sibling rivalries develop because of parental treatment. If you want the kids to change then you adults need to change first.

As you adults get your act together, you also need to do some rebuilding of structure for the kids. This includes baseline and household rules (more "in this household we will..." than "do NOT ...", more independent exercise, adult-supervised play, adult mediation to model appropriate discussion during disagreements, adult modeling of "same team, same side," and helping the kids recognize nonverbal mood signals so that they can become better "readers" of the others mood.

Think about the interactions of the kids, too. Is there one kid who is more aggressive than the other, is one kid a sly instigator, is one kid prone to mood swings, are there triggers? You should be having regular family meetings of the whole household to discuss topics of general and individual concern.

But most of all the adults in the household need to figure out what they're doing that is allowing and perpetuating the rivalry between the kids. Make that your job 1.

OP here. It's not a sibling rivalry, because they aren't siblings. It's complicated because the kids are in very different households with different stressors and family circumstances. Jealousy is one of the outcomes of that, and while we're working on it, it's complicated. I'll admit that I have some bias, because I'm only the parent of one of the kids. I'm not sure the other parents would agree with how I'd characterize both kids and their role in this, if that makes sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The kid that did the shoving needs severe restrictions for a week. Because he needs time to reflect on why he resorted to trying to harm the other boy. Do not sugarcoat it. Do not make excuses for it. He can learn to do better but only if the adults around him make it very clear that his behavior is not OK. Right now he is being shown that the only downside to him trying to hurt his friend to win is he gets less attention.

I would not pick a punishment that revolves around the injured child, as that will cause more resentment and the kid with the temper will likely act again. You make it solely about his actions. Adults viewing it said he crossed the line, make it clear what was seen, why it is not OK, and why he is being punished.

This. I would not punish by taking away exercise, because he needs it for mental health. I might not let him shoot hoops as a small part. He can do other exercises. He needs to write an apology and have video games taken away or something like that. This is concerning behavior even though it did become more common in kid's sports. It's impulsive and problematic and needs to be nipped in the bud.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it a chronic situation or a one-time event? Is the one you are assuming was aggressive remorseful or unrepentant? How does the injured kid feel about it?

Both kids are pretty intensely competitive, and there is a complicated dynamic with a fair amount of jealousy between them.

The adults who saw it, and who are themselves pretty athletic and competitive and involved in youth sports, are pretty clear that a line was crossed. Honestly, I'm not athletic enough that I think I could make that judgement, but there does seem to be consensus that it was intentional aggression, and not just rough play, perhaps related to the jealousy dynamic.

After it happened, uninjured kid apologized, but also seemed resentful that the other kid was getting attention. Both kids were very focused on figuring out who won the game, which revolved around the question of free throws and who could sub for the injured player. Eventually they negotiated something, which resulted in the injured kid winning. The injured kid seems to think of this as a resolution, that losing the game was the logical consequence and now the score is even. The kids have been separated since then, not as a consequence but because adults are off work for the holiday, so they're home with their respective parents.

To me, you answered your own question. If the injured child feels it was resolved, and the injurer feels it was resolved (and apologized sincerely), I would drop it unless the parents of the kid doing the injuring see a pattern and need to address. If that's the case, they should be working with their child on how to deal with jealousy/anger/unnamed emotions outside of this incident.

[Anonymous]

Shared childcare = No supervision

Are both kids 10 years old? Same gender? Are they about the same size?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it a chronic situation or a one-time event? Is the one you are assuming was aggressive remorseful or unrepentant? How does the injured kid feel about it?

Both kids are pretty intensely competitive, and there is a complicated dynamic with a fair amount of jealousy between them.

The adults who saw it, and who are themselves pretty athletic and competitive and involved in youth sports, are pretty clear that a line was crossed. Honestly, I'm not athletic enough that I think I could make that judgement, but there does seem to be consensus that it was intentional aggression, and not just rough play, perhaps related to the jealousy dynamic.

After it happened, uninjured kid apologized, but also seemed resentful that the other kid was getting attention. Both kids were very focused on figuring out who won the game, which revolved around the question of free throws and who could sub for the injured player. Eventually they negotiated something, which resulted in the injured kid winning. The injured kid seems to think of this as a resolution, that losing the game was the logical consequence and now the score is even. The kids have been separated since then, not as a consequence but because adults are off work for the holiday, so they're home with their respective parents.

The kid who shoved was wrong, no doubt about it. However, the bolded is concerning.

Rivalry and jealousy between kids stems primarily from one thing only - the parent/guardian dynamic and interactions with those kids. If you want to change the way the kids get along then the adults in your environment need to change the way they interact with each other and with the kids. Yes there are factors like personality and birth order, and experiences outside the family and family unit, but by and large sibling rivalries develop because of parental treatment. If you want the kids to change then you adults need to change first.

As you adults get your act together, you also need to do some rebuilding of structure for the kids. This includes baseline and household rules (more "in this household we will..." than "do NOT ...", more independent exercise, adult-supervised play, adult mediation to model appropriate discussion during disagreements, adult modeling of "same team, same side," and helping the kids recognize nonverbal mood signals so that they can become better "readers" of the others mood.

Think about the interactions of the kids, too. Is there one kid who is more aggressive than the other, is one kid a sly instigator, is one kid prone to mood swings, are there triggers? You should be having regular family meetings of the whole household to discuss topics of general and individual concern.

But most of all the adults in the household need to figure out what they're doing that is allowing and perpetuating the rivalry between the kids. Make that your job 1.

OP here. It's not a sibling rivalry, because they aren't siblings. It's complicated because the kids are in very different households with different stressors and family circumstances. Jealousy is one of the outcomes of that, and while we're working on it, it's complicated. I'll admit that I have some bias, because I'm only the parent of one of the kids. I'm not sure the other parents would agree with how I'd characterize both kids and their role in this, if that makes sense.

Even more of a reason for all of you to get together and come to some agreement. I am unclear if you are guests in a siblings home or if you all have gathered together under the parents' (grandparents to your kids) roof but it certainly sounds like all of you together are allowing the jealousy to breed and fester.

The more you post the more I'm taking it that your kid is the one who was hurt and that the other kid was the aggressor. I think that you and your spouse need to take a hard look at how you are treating your kid versus how the other kid is being treated by his parents. If the two sets of you continue down the current path this could get a lot worse, and it will happen fast. It is hard to know without a lot more information about the dynamic between the sibling parents and spouses but I am scared for the two kids and their safety.

If you and your spouse are super lenient while the other kid's parents are lay-down-the-law AND if that dichotomy is super visible to the kids et al then it would be tantamount to you and your husband instigating the reaction between the kids. Remember that they are only 10. While they can control their emotions it also is a lot without good modeling. And if you're aiding and abetting by being super soft then this other kid will only become more jealous. Both sets of parents need to come to some sort of agreement about the way you will treat your own kid and other kids, and the rules for the kids. This may mean that you and your spouse toughen up while the other set of parents lighten up.

You should consider doing some tele-therapy with a family therapist who can help you and your spouse get out of this muddle. Your child's pediatrician should be able to make some recommendations. And if your back goes up against the wall then you should consider moving out for a breather.

[Anonymous]

I am not sure what the punishment would be. But one thing I would require is that during injured kid’s recuperation, aggressive boy would not be permitted to engage in athletic activities in injured boy’s presence. This would be out of consideration.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Shared childcare = No supervision

Are both kids 10 years old? Same gender? Are they about the same size?

They are the same age, opposite gender, injured kid is a little bigger and stronger, but not a huge difference.

There is always an adult around when they are together but there are younger siblings so attention is divided. When the injury happened though they were in a 2:2 basketball game with two adults. So they were definitely supervised.

[Anonymous]

The way you've written this is off-putting and confusing. I think you're trying to strip emotion and biases out, but it reads as so impersonal and cold. I mean, WTF, a cousin pushes a cousin, and there's a break, and an adult who was there (and not a parent of either child) says it was more than a simple push, that there was intentionality and purpose.

Under normal circumstances, you'd separate the kids - whether you're the parent of the aggressor or the injured. Clearly they need a break.

and then WTF is the whole story of finishing the game. That makes no sense. There is something wrong in this entire family group.

But ,these are not normal times, and the kids themselves seem to be over it.

If I were the parent of the injured, I'd adjust something to give that child more one on one attention. And if I were the parent of the aggressor, heck I'd do the same.

There is a flaw in this system. From the way you've written it, it's difficult to judge what that flaw is.

[Anonymous]

When my kids started fighting like that they were no longer allowed to participate in the activity that caused the mutual frustration. So in your case, they can’t play games like that if they can’t follow the rules, period. The injury gives a solid timeline, but I wouldn’t punish based on the injury. The situation should be handled based on the aggression, no matter the outcome (whether someone gets hurt or not). When the injured kid is recovered, they can try playing the game again, but zero tolerance for any aggression whatsoever. Shoving like that usually doesn’t come out of nowhere; if the adult in question can’t recognize the signs of an impending outburst and cut off the game before it gets out of control, then that adult needs some coaching on how to diffuse the situation earlier. Kids get amped up and need to know the game will end immediately if they start acting like jerks.

I totally get that this is an impossible time with everyone working and needing to care for their children, but maybe the cousins are sick of each other and it would be healthier to make an adjustment to the child care arrangement. 10 year olds can manage themselves if a parent is working from home. Maybe even one or two days a week of separation would help.

[Anonymous]

Child apologized. Forget it and move on. If one was grabbing the ball from another, these things happen. I would not be thrilled about it on either end but I'd let it go this time. If my child was the one who did it, I'd tell them that if it was a shove on purpose, they better confess or there will be strong consequences. And, if it happens on purpose again, there will be severe consequences. But, these things happen with sports.

[Anonymous]

Stop with all the competitive sports. Both kids sound like they learned some bad behavior from their competitive parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are in a "bubble" with my in laws. Kids are together every day for some homeschool activities, and shared childcare. Due to some high risk family members, all adults are working from home, and the kids are only playing with each other and not seeing anyone outside the house.

Yesterday, during a basketball game, one ten year old pushed the other to the ground, resulting in a fractured wrist, and probably six weeks of activity restrictions. Both kids are super active kids, and my guess is that in the long term the injured one is going to find six weeks of no sports to be more painful than the break.

I didn't see the fall, but the people who did all seem to agree that what happened was a shove, and outside of the general "basketball is a rough game, and sometimes people get hurt". At the same point, I think we all realize that kids can play rough, and accidents happen.

Several adults involved have expressed concern about a dynamic where one child can't do the things they love, and has to watch the kid who caused the injury doing them. On the other hand six weeks of activity restrictions don't seem like a fair consequence for a single shove.

I should add that both kids are under significant stress due to family issues, and both kids typically manage their stress with high levels of movement and exercise.

Any suggestion on how to manage this dynamic? Better yet, any suggestions on ways that both kids can be active together, given covid restrictions?

Why are “several” adults offering input on what the consequences should be for this kid? That’s a decision for the kid’s parents to make, not the extended family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are in a "bubble" with my in laws. Kids are together every day for some homeschool activities, and shared childcare. Due to some high risk family members, all adults are working from home, and the kids are only playing with each other and not seeing anyone outside the house.

Yesterday, during a basketball game, one ten year old pushed the other to the ground, resulting in a fractured wrist, and probably six weeks of activity restrictions. Both kids are super active kids, and my guess is that in the long term the injured one is going to find six weeks of no sports to be more painful than the break.

I didn't see the fall, but the people who did all seem to agree that what happened was a shove, and outside of the general "basketball is a rough game, and sometimes people get hurt". At the same point, I think we all realize that kids can play rough, and accidents happen.

Several adults involved have expressed concern about a dynamic where one child can't do the things they love, and has to watch the kid who caused the injury doing them. On the other hand six weeks of activity restrictions don't seem like a fair consequence for a single shove.

I should add that both kids are under significant stress due to family issues, and both kids typically manage their stress with high levels of movement and exercise.

Any suggestion on how to manage this dynamic? Better yet, any suggestions on ways that both kids can be active together, given covid restrictions?

Why are “several” adults offering input on what the consequences should be for this kid? That’s a decision for the kid’s parents to make, not the extended family.

Exactly. And if the kid already apologized just how long are they put him under the thumb. Enough already. The kid made a big mistake. He apologized. He probably had a consequence. It is over. Repeatedly dragging him over hot coals for the next few months is not the right answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If the kid who did the pushing has aggression issues beyond this one incident, then the focus here needs to be getting the kid help with those aggressions issues. Simply punishing him isn’t going to effect any meaningful change.

If this is two kids who play off each other in an intensive and competitive way and it could have just as easily been the other child who did the pushing, it’s time to look at the broader family dynamic to figure out where this is coming from.

I think this is a natural consequence of the adults not handling this situation. Why are they allowed to be so intensely competitive? And boo to the adult who said it was last a regular shove. If y’all really think this kind thought “I will shove her, she will fall, and she will break her wrist...” then...why are they still playing together? If you guys don’t think this, why the punishment?

[Anonymous]

This post is extremely weird. Just how many people are in this “bubble?” It sounds like you’re living on some type of creep commune.

Anyway, this set up isn’t working anymore. Clearly.