Harrison Bergeron: The Ruling in the Caster Semenya Case Shows Us Where We are Going

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's a very simple question with a very complicated answer: For the purposes of athletic competition, you have to determine where the line is between men and women. (This is a very different question than in most areas, where I believe anyone should be able to decided whether they are a man or woman.) I don't know the answer. From what I've read, the science is very unsure about what exact biological characteristics contributes to the male advantage (which is very consistently about 10 percent faster for all running and endurance sports), and the recent decision very well may be premature.

However, this article gets into more detail:

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

One interesting fact: " the rate of intersex births is just .018% — less than two out of every 10,000 people. ... [but] it’s believed that all three of the medallists in the 2016 Olympic women’s 800 – Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui — are intersex."

No, that's not what they determined. What they determined is that she's a woman whose testosterone levels are higher than they will allow for women competing at distances between 400 m and 1 mile.

You can't ignore the fact she's intersex. It matters.

You can't ignore the fact that Michael Phelps has [whatever medical condition that gives him long arms, big floppy feet, and a weird metabolism]. It matters.

Right, so let's say in the future we can test and it's determined that Michael Phelps has alien DNA, and we have overwhelming evidence that aliens athletically outperform human men, and that requiring human men to compete against aliens in athletic competitions unfairly limits human men and will generally mean human men have no opportunities for participation in competitive athletics. Then we have these conversations about how to both protect aliens access to athletic competition, and human men's access to athletic competition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's a very simple question with a very complicated answer: For the purposes of athletic competition, you have to determine where the line is between men and women. (This is a very different question than in most areas, where I believe anyone should be able to decided whether they are a man or woman.) I don't know the answer. From what I've read, the science is very unsure about what exact biological characteristics contributes to the male advantage (which is very consistently about 10 percent faster for all running and endurance sports), and the recent decision very well may be premature.

However, this article gets into more detail:

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

One interesting fact: " the rate of intersex births is just .018% — less than two out of every 10,000 people. ... [but] it’s believed that all three of the medallists in the 2016 Olympic women’s 800 – Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui — are intersex."

No, that's not what they determined. What they determined is that she's a woman whose testosterone levels are higher than they will allow for women competing at distances between 400 m and 1 mile.

You can't ignore the fact she's intersex. It matters.

You can't ignore the fact that Michael Phelps has [whatever medical condition that gives him long arms, big floppy feet, and a weird metabolism]. It matters.

Right, so let's say in the future we can test and it's determined that Michael Phelps has alien DNA, and we have overwhelming evidence that aliens athletically outperform human men, and that requiring human men to compete against aliens in athletic competitions unfairly limits human men and will generally mean human men have no opportunities for participation in competitive athletics. Then we have these conversations about how to both protect aliens access to athletic competition, and human men's access to athletic competition.

This would be applicable if the IAAF were making decisions based on people's genes. But they're not.

And then, of course, there's the implication that Caster Semenya isn't *really* a woman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should men be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

Disorders of sexual development can be devastating. Especially since they're often hidden and many societies are very uncomfortable with it, leaving people without an understanding of what's going on. I understand that often people with DSDs don't even find out until something goes wrong later in life (such as trying to figure out why puberty isn't going as expected, or they aren't able to have children).

There is no easy answer here. Reasonable people can see harm happening no matter what the decision is.

How is that relevant? Caster Semenya is a woman. Should women be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

We don't actually know that. From the information available, it is likely that Caster Semenya is intersex. This is only being discussed because Caster Semenya competes at the highest level of athletics, and is exceptional. It is unfortunate that women are at such a physical disadvantage generally, that whenever someone is phenomenal there is a suspicion that they may not be a biological woman. There are some unfortunate facts of biological life, and women generally being at an athletic disadvantage is one of them.

"A biological woman"? Seriously?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should men be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

Disorders of sexual development can be devastating. Especially since they're often hidden and many societies are very uncomfortable with it, leaving people without an understanding of what's going on. I understand that often people with DSDs don't even find out until something goes wrong later in life (such as trying to figure out why puberty isn't going as expected, or they aren't able to have children).

There is no easy answer here. Reasonable people can see harm happening no matter what the decision is.

How is that relevant? Caster Semenya is a woman. Should women be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

We don't actually know that. From the information available, it is likely that Caster Semenya is intersex. This is only being discussed because Caster Semenya competes at the highest level of athletics, and is exceptional. It is unfortunate that women are at such a physical disadvantage generally, that whenever someone is phenomenal there is a suspicion that they may not be a biological woman. There are some unfortunate facts of biological life, and women generally being at an athletic disadvantage is one of them.

"A biological woman"? Seriously?

NP. What is your issue with that term?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's a very simple question with a very complicated answer: For the purposes of athletic competition, you have to determine where the line is between men and women. (This is a very different question than in most areas, where I believe anyone should be able to decided whether they are a man or woman.) I don't know the answer. From what I've read, the science is very unsure about what exact biological characteristics contributes to the male advantage (which is very consistently about 10 percent faster for all running and endurance sports), and the recent decision very well may be premature.

However, this article gets into more detail:

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

One interesting fact: " the rate of intersex births is just .018% — less than two out of every 10,000 people. ... [but] it’s believed that all three of the medallists in the 2016 Olympic women’s 800 – Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui — are intersex."

No, that's not what they determined. What they determined is that she's a woman whose testosterone levels are higher than they will allow for women competing at distances between 400 m and 1 mile.

You can't ignore the fact she's intersex. It matters.

You can't ignore the fact that Michael Phelps has [whatever medical condition that gives him long arms, big floppy feet, and a weird metabolism]. It matters.

Right, so let's say in the future we can test and it's determined that Michael Phelps has alien DNA, and we have overwhelming evidence that aliens athletically outperform human men, and that requiring human men to compete against aliens in athletic competitions unfairly limits human men and will generally mean human men have no opportunities for participation in competitive athletics. Then we have these conversations about how to both protect aliens access to athletic competition, and human men's access to athletic competition.

This would be applicable if the IAAF were making decisions based on people's genes. But they're not.

And then, of course, there's the implication that Caster Semenya isn't *really* a woman.

Being intersex really does make a huge difference. Most women do not have internal testes producing testosterone, which makes a huge difference in how a person’s body develops during puberty. Semenya doesn’t have testosterone levels that are on the high end of the range for females but instead has levels that are in the male range. That makes a big difference in physical development and strength.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Being intersex really does make a huge difference. Most women do not have internal testes producing testosterone, which makes a huge difference in how a person’s body develops during puberty. Semenya doesn’t have testosterone levels that are on the high end of the range for females but instead has levels that are in the male range. That makes a big difference in physical development and strength.

Having long arms and floppy feet also really do make a huge difference.

Also, there is no one "being intersex" thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should men be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

Disorders of sexual development can be devastating. Especially since they're often hidden and many societies are very uncomfortable with it, leaving people without an understanding of what's going on. I understand that often people with DSDs don't even find out until something goes wrong later in life (such as trying to figure out why puberty isn't going as expected, or they aren't able to have children).

There is no easy answer here. Reasonable people can see harm happening no matter what the decision is.

How is that relevant? Caster Semenya is a woman. Should women be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

We don't actually know that. From the information available, it is likely that Caster Semenya is intersex. This is only being discussed because Caster Semenya competes at the highest level of athletics, and is exceptional. It is unfortunate that women are at such a physical disadvantage generally, that whenever someone is phenomenal there is a suspicion that they may not be a biological woman. There are some unfortunate facts of biological life, and women generally being at an athletic disadvantage is one of them.

"A biological woman"? Seriously?

NP. What is your issue with that term?

1. What does it mean?
2. PP is saying that Caster Semenya isn't really a woman (whatever that means).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should men be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

Disorders of sexual development can be devastating. Especially since they're often hidden and many societies are very uncomfortable with it, leaving people without an understanding of what's going on. I understand that often people with DSDs don't even find out until something goes wrong later in life (such as trying to figure out why puberty isn't going as expected, or they aren't able to have children).

There is no easy answer here. Reasonable people can see harm happening no matter what the decision is.

How is that relevant? Caster Semenya is a woman. Should women be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

We don't actually know that. From the information available, it is likely that Caster Semenya is intersex. This is only being discussed because Caster Semenya competes at the highest level of athletics, and is exceptional. It is unfortunate that women are at such a physical disadvantage generally, that whenever someone is phenomenal there is a suspicion that they may not be a biological woman. There are some unfortunate facts of biological life, and women generally being at an athletic disadvantage is one of them.

"A biological woman"? Seriously?

NP. What is your issue with that term?

Not the PP, but you are erasing all of the different ways in which someone can be a biological woman. Semenya was born a girl and raised as a woman. One assumes she has "girl parts" and either XX chromosomes or some variation thereof. She is biologically a woman by literally any standard one could apply.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should men be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

Disorders of sexual development can be devastating. Especially since they're often hidden and many societies are very uncomfortable with it, leaving people without an understanding of what's going on. I understand that often people with DSDs don't even find out until something goes wrong later in life (such as trying to figure out why puberty isn't going as expected, or they aren't able to have children).

There is no easy answer here. Reasonable people can see harm happening no matter what the decision is.

How is that relevant? Caster Semenya is a woman. Should women be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

We don't actually know that. From the information available, it is likely that Caster Semenya is intersex. This is only being discussed because Caster Semenya competes at the highest level of athletics, and is exceptional. It is unfortunate that women are at such a physical disadvantage generally, that whenever someone is phenomenal there is a suspicion that they may not be a biological woman. There are some unfortunate facts of biological life, and women generally being at an athletic disadvantage is one of them.

"A biological woman"? Seriously?

NP. What is your issue with that term?

1. What does it mean?
2. PP is saying that Caster Semenya isn't really a woman (whatever that means).

1. It means a female human, with XX chromosomes since birth.
2. She's most likely an intersex male, with XY chromosomes and internal testes, who's body never developed external male genitalia due to a genetic mutation. So she appeared female at birth and to this day, but has male genes and has developed physically more like a male than a female.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should men be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

Disorders of sexual development can be devastating. Especially since they're often hidden and many societies are very uncomfortable with it, leaving people without an understanding of what's going on. I understand that often people with DSDs don't even find out until something goes wrong later in life (such as trying to figure out why puberty isn't going as expected, or they aren't able to have children).

There is no easy answer here. Reasonable people can see harm happening no matter what the decision is.

How is that relevant? Caster Semenya is a woman. Should women be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

We don't actually know that. From the information available, it is likely that Caster Semenya is intersex. This is only being discussed because Caster Semenya competes at the highest level of athletics, and is exceptional. It is unfortunate that women are at such a physical disadvantage generally, that whenever someone is phenomenal there is a suspicion that they may not be a biological woman. There are some unfortunate facts of biological life, and women generally being at an athletic disadvantage is one of them.

"A biological woman"? Seriously?

NP. What is your issue with that term?

Not the PP, but you are erasing all of the different ways in which someone can be a biological woman. Semenya was born a girl and raised as a woman. One assumes she has "girl parts" and either XX chromosomes or some variation thereof. She is biologically a woman by literally any standard one could apply.

If she has the intersex condition she is understood to have, then she has external "girl parts", and internal "boy parts", and XY chromosomes. That is not a biological woman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should men be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

Disorders of sexual development can be devastating. Especially since they're often hidden and many societies are very uncomfortable with it, leaving people without an understanding of what's going on. I understand that often people with DSDs don't even find out until something goes wrong later in life (such as trying to figure out why puberty isn't going as expected, or they aren't able to have children).

There is no easy answer here. Reasonable people can see harm happening no matter what the decision is.

How is that relevant? Caster Semenya is a woman. Should women be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

We don't actually know that. From the information available, it is likely that Caster Semenya is intersex. This is only being discussed because Caster Semenya competes at the highest level of athletics, and is exceptional. It is unfortunate that women are at such a physical disadvantage generally, that whenever someone is phenomenal there is a suspicion that they may not be a biological woman. There are some unfortunate facts of biological life, and women generally being at an athletic disadvantage is one of them.

"A biological woman"? Seriously?

NP. What is your issue with that term?

Not the PP, but you are erasing all of the different ways in which someone can be a biological woman. Semenya was born a girl and raised as a woman. One assumes she has "girl parts" and either XX chromosomes or some variation thereof. She is biologically a woman by literally any standard one could apply.

If she has the intersex condition she is understood to have, then she has external "girl parts", and internal "boy parts", and XY chromosomes. That is not a biological woman.

There is literally no evidence that she has one intersex condition or any intersex condition at all. Her testosterone levels are high, but that's not proof that you personally understand what condition she may or may not have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should men be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

Disorders of sexual development can be devastating. Especially since they're often hidden and many societies are very uncomfortable with it, leaving people without an understanding of what's going on. I understand that often people with DSDs don't even find out until something goes wrong later in life (such as trying to figure out why puberty isn't going as expected, or they aren't able to have children).

There is no easy answer here. Reasonable people can see harm happening no matter what the decision is.

How is that relevant? Caster Semenya is a woman. Should women be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

We don't actually know that. From the information available, it is likely that Caster Semenya is intersex. This is only being discussed because Caster Semenya competes at the highest level of athletics, and is exceptional. It is unfortunate that women are at such a physical disadvantage generally, that whenever someone is phenomenal there is a suspicion that they may not be a biological woman. There are some unfortunate facts of biological life, and women generally being at an athletic disadvantage is one of them.

"A biological woman"? Seriously?

NP. What is your issue with that term?

Not the PP, but you are erasing all of the different ways in which someone can be a biological woman. Semenya was born a girl and raised as a woman. One assumes she has "girl parts" and either XX chromosomes or some variation thereof. She is biologically a woman by literally any standard one could apply.

If she has the intersex condition she is understood to have, then she has external "girl parts", and internal "boy parts", and XY chromosomes. That is not a biological woman.

There is literally no evidence that she has one intersex condition or any intersex condition at all. Her testosterone levels are high, but that's not proof that you personally understand what condition she may or may not have.

Her testosterone levels are in the normal range for a man, and abnormal for a woman. I'm pretty sure there's plenty of evidence that she has some intersex condition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

If she has the intersex condition she is understood to have, then she has external "girl parts", and internal "boy parts", and XY chromosomes. That is not a biological woman.

A person with XY chromosomes isn't a biological woman if you define "a biological woman" as "a person with XX chromosomes", but why would you do that? Especially in the context of athletic contests, which do not require athletes to be karyotyped before they are allowed to compete.

Also, aside from her blood testosterone levels, this is how much medical information you have about her: ZERO.

[Anonymous]

She could also just be hyper androgenic without being intersex. The fact is, WE DON' KNOW.

I'd we start going down a path of genetic testing for Olympic athletes...wow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If she has the intersex condition she is understood to have, then she has external "girl parts", and internal "boy parts", and XY chromosomes. That is not a biological woman.

A person with XY chromosomes isn't a biological woman if you define "a biological woman" as "a person with XX chromosomes", but why would you do that? Especially in the context of athletic contests, which do not require athletes to be karyotyped before they are allowed to compete.

Also, aside from her blood testosterone levels, this is how much medical information you have about her: ZERO.

Um, because that's the basic definition of male and female? Men have XY chromosomes and have male characteristics and women have XX chromosomes and develop female characteristics. What is your definition if not that?