Harrison Bergeron: The Ruling in the Caster Semenya Case Shows Us Where We are Going

[Anonymous]

Can a triple-X gal compete against women? That seems unfair too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can a triple-X gal compete against women? That seems unfair too.

Invasive medical testing for all athletes who are women and win stuff! Men can carry on as they were.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can a triple-X gal compete against women? That seems unfair too.

Invasive medical testing for all athletes who are women and win stuff! Men can carry on as they were.

Or, you know, provide a level playing field for woman born without genetically male features.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can a triple-X gal compete against women? That seems unfair too.

Invasive medical testing for all athletes who are women and win stuff! Men can carry on as they were.

+1. Especially if they’re black women who win stuff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The ruling specifically applies to athletes with 46XY DSD, i.e. female athletes with XY (male) chromosomes. If she wasn't intersex, the ruling wouldn't apply to her and no one would be talking about this.

More specifically it applies to female athletes competing in certain events in certain sports.

The decision was fair.

Not everyone gets to be involved in everything all the time just because they want too. And it doesn't matter that its genetics. Genetics excludes people. It's reality.

She competed her whole life with no notion of being high testosterone while living, believing, and presenting as a woman.The fact that she can no longer compete because of a freak of nature is what is not fair.

We are wielding "science" as a cudgel and that is not fair. She cannot control who she is. Young female gymnasts who delay puberty and menstruation CAN, but THEY are allowed to compete.

But honestly. F@#$ the Olympics and any whiney athlete who is upset at this.

Sorry but she presents as a man

No, what you mean is, "I think she looks like a man."

But your opinion of her appearance is entirely irrelevant. Mine is, too.

Appearance is relevant. We make determinations about people's gender all the time based on appearance.

The idea that the default gender of an intersex person without a penis is automatically female is sexist. Puberty turned Caster into someone that presents as man.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Appearance is relevant. We make determinations about people's gender all the time based on appearance.

The idea that the default gender of an intersex person without a penis is automatically female is sexist. Puberty turned Caster into someone that presents as man.

No, she presents as a woman. You think she looks like a man. Two different things.

Your opinion of her appearance is as relevant as your opinion of earthquakes, but that's also a different thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's a very simple question with a very complicated answer: For the purposes of athletic competition, you have to determine where the line is between men and women. (This is a very different question than in most areas, where I believe anyone should be able to decided whether they are a man or woman.) I don't know the answer. From what I've read, the science is very unsure about what exact biological characteristics contributes to the male advantage (which is very consistently about 10 percent faster for all running and endurance sports), and the recent decision very well may be premature.

However, this article gets into more detail:

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

One interesting fact: " the rate of intersex births is just .018% — less than two out of every 10,000 people. ... [but] it’s believed that all three of the medallists in the 2016 Olympic women’s 800 – Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui — are intersex."

No, that's not what they determined. What they determined is that she's a woman whose testosterone levels are higher than they will allow for women competing at distances between 400 m and 1 mile.

You can't ignore the fact she's intersex. It matters.

You can't ignore the fact that Michael Phelps has [whatever medical condition that gives him long arms, big floppy feet, and a weird metabolism]. It matters.

Right, so let's say in the future we can test and it's determined that Michael Phelps has alien DNA, and we have overwhelming evidence that aliens athletically outperform human men, and that requiring human men to compete against aliens in athletic competitions unfairly limits human men and will generally mean human men have no opportunities for participation in competitive athletics. Then we have these conversations about how to both protect aliens access to athletic competition, and human men's access to athletic competition.

This would be applicable if the IAAF were making decisions based on people's genes. But they're not.

And then, of course, there's the implication that Caster Semenya isn't *really* a woman.

They are making the decision based on people's genes. The decision is based on 46 XY DSD. That's a decision based on genetic makeup.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should men be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

Disorders of sexual development can be devastating. Especially since they're often hidden and many societies are very uncomfortable with it, leaving people without an understanding of what's going on. I understand that often people with DSDs don't even find out until something goes wrong later in life (such as trying to figure out why puberty isn't going as expected, or they aren't able to have children).

There is no easy answer here. Reasonable people can see harm happening no matter what the decision is.

How is that relevant? Caster Semenya is a woman. Should women be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

We don't actually know that. From the information available, it is likely that Caster Semenya is intersex. This is only being discussed because Caster Semenya competes at the highest level of athletics, and is exceptional. It is unfortunate that women are at such a physical disadvantage generally, that whenever someone is phenomenal there is a suspicion that they may not be a biological woman. There are some unfortunate facts of biological life, and women generally being at an athletic disadvantage is one of them.

"A biological woman"? Seriously?

If Caster Semenya is a 46 XY person with DSD, then Caster Semenya is not a typical biological woman. A disorder of sexual development has left her with some form of testicular development. It's unfortunate (she's at higher risk of certain health problems, and it's led to her personal situation being discussed publicly), and it's only an issue because she participates in a sex-segregated activity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The ruling specifically applies to athletes with 46XY DSD, i.e. female athletes with XY (male) chromosomes. If she wasn't intersex, the ruling wouldn't apply to her and no one would be talking about this.

More specifically it applies to female athletes competing in certain events in certain sports.

The decision was fair.

Not everyone gets to be involved in everything all the time just because they want too. And it doesn't matter that its genetics. Genetics excludes people. It's reality.

She competed her whole life with no notion of being high testosterone while living, believing, and presenting as a woman.The fact that she can no longer compete because of a freak of nature is what is not fair.

We are wielding "science" as a cudgel and that is not fair. She cannot control who she is. Young female gymnasts who delay puberty and menstruation CAN, but THEY are allowed to compete.

But honestly. F@#$ the Olympics and any whiney athlete who is upset at this.

You suggest we ignore science and just go with feelings? How progressive of you.

[Anonymous]

NP. I read this interview with David Epstein, who is apparently a sports journalist at ProPublica and author of a book on the science of sports. I found this quote interesting, especially the bolded:

"On Twitter, a lot of people were sharing a picture of Michael Phelps’ arms, with people saying, “He’s got long arms, and that’s natural. So why would we regulate Caster Semenya for high levels of testosterone?” Well, on the Paula Radcliffe side, the problem with that argument is that we don’t divide sports by arm length. We do divide it by sex. If you’re going to have a female classification, it has to mean something. The reason we have the female classification is because there’s tremendous value in having women’s sports. If we only had one competitive classification for all comers, then the best women wouldn’t be able to compete with the best man. The question is, how do you define who is allowed entry into that female classification? Again, we don’t divide sports by arm length or height. But testosterone is not height. A man in the low level of the typical male testosterone range still has testosterone several hundred percent higher than a woman at the top of the typical female range."

As to this particular ruling, he says:

"So actually this ruling is very narrowly applied to women with XY chromosomes and elevated testosterone to which they are at least partially sensitive, and only if they are competing in a small range of events from the 400-meters to the mile."

He also speculates at the end of the article that it could get ugly if Semenya decides to move on to another event, and they effectively chase her to try to regulate any event she competes in.

https://slate.com/culture/2019/05/caster-semenya-cas-ruling-testosterone-track.html

[Anonymous]

To please all outraged libs and white knights, I say we eliminate gender as a differentiators completely. Oh, and while at it, let's also get of gender, weight, age, whatever. Good luck to you kid ever winning anything....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should men be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

Disorders of sexual development can be devastating. Especially since they're often hidden and many societies are very uncomfortable with it, leaving people without an understanding of what's going on. I understand that often people with DSDs don't even find out until something goes wrong later in life (such as trying to figure out why puberty isn't going as expected, or they aren't able to have children).

There is no easy answer here. Reasonable people can see harm happening no matter what the decision is.

How is that relevant? Caster Semenya is a woman. Should women be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

We don't actually know that. From the information available, it is likely that Caster Semenya is intersex. This is only being discussed because Caster Semenya competes at the highest level of athletics, and is exceptional. It is unfortunate that women are at such a physical disadvantage generally, that whenever someone is phenomenal there is a suspicion that they may not be a biological woman. There are some unfortunate facts of biological life, and women generally being at an athletic disadvantage is one of them.

"A biological woman"? Seriously?

NP. What is your issue with that term?

1. What does it mean?
2. PP is saying that Caster Semenya isn't really a woman (whatever that means).

Look, you are super woke, and that is wonderful. But surely you can understand the reasons why many people believe that only XY females should be competing in women's sports.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should men be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

Disorders of sexual development can be devastating. Especially since they're often hidden and many societies are very uncomfortable with it, leaving people without an understanding of what's going on. I understand that often people with DSDs don't even find out until something goes wrong later in life (such as trying to figure out why puberty isn't going as expected, or they aren't able to have children).

There is no easy answer here. Reasonable people can see harm happening no matter what the decision is.

How is that relevant? Caster Semenya is a woman. Should women be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

We don't actually know that. From the information available, it is likely that Caster Semenya is intersex. This is only being discussed because Caster Semenya competes at the highest level of athletics, and is exceptional. It is unfortunate that women are at such a physical disadvantage generally, that whenever someone is phenomenal there is a suspicion that they may not be a biological woman. There are some unfortunate facts of biological life, and women generally being at an athletic disadvantage is one of them.

"A biological woman"? Seriously?

If Caster Semenya is a 46 XY person with DSD, then Caster Semenya is not a typical biological woman. A disorder of sexual development has left her with some form of testicular development. It's unfortunate (she's at higher risk of certain health problems, and it's led to her personal situation being discussed publicly), and it's only an issue because she participates in a sex-segregated activity.

Note the meaningful difference between "not a biological woman" and "not a typical biological woman."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

They are making the decision based on people's genes. The decision is based on 46 XY DSD. That's a decision based on genetic makeup.

Right. If you're a woman with a 46 XY DSD, then you have to have (or modify yourself to have) testosterone levels below a specified limit, or you're not allowed to run distances between 400 meters and 1 mile.

But if you're a woman who doesn't have a 46 XY DSD, then your testosterone levels can be anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should men be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

Disorders of sexual development can be devastating. Especially since they're often hidden and many societies are very uncomfortable with it, leaving people without an understanding of what's going on. I understand that often people with DSDs don't even find out until something goes wrong later in life (such as trying to figure out why puberty isn't going as expected, or they aren't able to have children).

There is no easy answer here. Reasonable people can see harm happening no matter what the decision is.

How is that relevant? Caster Semenya is a woman. Should women be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

We don't actually know that. From the information available, it is likely that Caster Semenya is intersex. This is only being discussed because Caster Semenya competes at the highest level of athletics, and is exceptional. It is unfortunate that women are at such a physical disadvantage generally, that whenever someone is phenomenal there is a suspicion that they may not be a biological woman. There are some unfortunate facts of biological life, and women generally being at an athletic disadvantage is one of them.

"A biological woman"? Seriously?

If Caster Semenya is a 46 XY person with DSD, then Caster Semenya is not a typical biological woman. A disorder of sexual development has left her with some form of testicular development. It's unfortunate (she's at higher risk of certain health problems, and it's led to her personal situation being discussed publicly), and it's only an issue because she participates in a sex-segregated activity.

Note the meaningful difference between "not a biological woman" and "not a typical biological woman."

XX is female, XY is male. There are disorders of sexual development that muddy that a bit for individual people, but it doesn't change the basics.
Odds are, in 100 years, if Caster Semenya's skeleton was analyzed and her DNA was evaluated, she would be considered a biological male (with a disorder of sexual development). She wouldn't be being evaluated by whether or not the person who delivered her saw what was perceived as a penis or not. In a sexist, misogynistic system, Caster Semenya was determined to be female because of (a lack of) external characteristics. That does not make Caster Semenya a biological woman or a biological man. It makes Caster Semenya a victim of a sexist system.