Should kids that heavily prepped for the CoGat be allowed in AAP?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I hate the way the holistic approach is used to guess which kids may have prepped and keep them out of a program for which they're clearly smart enough. If a kid scores over 140 on the tests, then the kid should automatically be admitted. If the kid is in-pool on both NNAT and CogAT and is above grade level in reading and math, then the kid also is more than capable of handling AAP, even if the scores are a bit inflated from prepping.

The committee will never know who actually prepped, so they can only guess based on whether or not the teacher rated the kid highly. Since prepping only leads to a 5-10 point increase, it kills me to see kids with high test scores and above grade level in everything get rejected due to the holistic approach. Some of those kids probably didn't even prep. The teacher just didn't like the kid.

I mean, this (bolded) just begs the retort that if a child is so clearly smart enough, why bother prepping? There would be no need?

Regardless, I think the holistic approach merely reflects what FCPS wants for their program. And that’s fine - they can decide and people are free to disagree.

[Anonymous]

Curious if anyone actually knows how much prepping helps. Is there any data on that?

Seems like at the end of the day the kid is smart enough to answer the questions... or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Curious if anyone actually knows how much prepping helps. Is there any data on that?

Seems like at the end of the day the kid is smart enough to answer the questions... or not.

Nah. The Cogat is very very preppable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate the way the holistic approach is used to guess which kids may have prepped and keep them out of a program for which they're clearly smart enough. If a kid scores over 140 on the tests, then the kid should automatically be admitted. If the kid is in-pool on both NNAT and CogAT and is above grade level in reading and math, then the kid also is more than capable of handling AAP, even if the scores are a bit inflated from prepping.

The committee will never know who actually prepped, so they can only guess based on whether or not the teacher rated the kid highly. Since prepping only leads to a 5-10 point increase, it kills me to see kids with high test scores and above grade level in everything get rejected due to the holistic approach. Some of those kids probably didn't even prep. The teacher just didn't like the kid.

I mean, this (bolded) just begs the retort that if a child is so clearly smart enough, why bother prepping? There would be no need?

Regardless, I think the holistic approach merely reflects what FCPS wants for their program. And that’s fine - they can decide and people are free to disagree.

The problem isn't trying to keep kids who prepped out of AAP per se. It's that it is impossible for the selection panel to know which kids did or did not prep, so they instead are guessing. I don't have any reason to imagine that they would guess correctly. The types of parents most likely to prep are also the ones who have their child in many enrichment classes or tutoring. Those kids will seem more advanced than other kids, and will probably impress the teachers. There are many reasons that kids who are actually gifted may not impress the teacher in the right way to get a high GBRS. I really don't like something as nebulous as the committee guessing that a child may have prepped be the reason a child is rejected. At this point, prepping is widespread enough that they should just hand out prep materials to everyone to level the playing field.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I'm not sure how old you are. In years past, no one prepped or practiced or studied for the SATs and they were considered an IQ test proxy.

I'm old enough to have taken the GRE Analytic in the 1990s.
Prepping for the SAT, I'm told, predates the 1990s, so perhaps you're even older

Here's the thing, though: I'm now at the other side of the table. If I see a grad school application with a Quant GRE of 700, I don't think the applicant is not talented; I think they're lazy. If they don't prep for their GRE, what else do they blow off? [I understand this doesn't apply to 2nd graders taking the CogAT.]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Regardless, I think the holistic approach merely reflects what FCPS wants for their program. And that’s fine - they can decide and people are free to disagree.

It's not fine. FCPS is publicly funded. The burden is on them to explain why they believe a prepped performance is "bad" when it's exactly the criteria by which any other performance is judged.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Regardless, I think the holistic approach merely reflects what FCPS wants for their program. And that’s fine - they can decide and people are free to disagree.

It's not fine. FCPS is publicly funded. The burden is on them to explain why they believe a prepped performance is "bad" when it's exactly the criteria by which any other performance is judged.

There's a reason FCPS has not and will not say any of this.

They're reasonably transparent about the process and offer appeals, which is virtually unique.

[Anonymous]

Why is prepping for cogat any different then prepping for sat?

[Anonymous]

What do you consider heavily prepped?

We bought one book with 2 sample tests. He was familiar with format of test. They also went over the test in school.

I don’t consider my child heavily prepped.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
They're reasonably transparent about the process and offer appeals, which is virtually unique.

That's the funniest thing I've heard in a long time. If FCPS were transparent at all, 90% of the posts on this forum wouldn't be people trying to decipher a rather mysterious and arbitrary system. No one has a good understanding of what causes a kid to get in or or get rejected. Even experienced AARTs and 2nd grade teachers can be surprised by a kid's AAP status. FCPS releases no real data and no explanations at all for why kids get rejected. The entire process is a black box.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What do you consider heavily prepped?

We bought one book with 2 sample tests. He was familiar with format of test. They also went over the test in school.

I don’t consider my child heavily prepped.

That is what we are going to be doing. I am not sure we need to, looking at the sample questions, but it doesn't seem like a big deal to let him see what the questions look like and go through them. I think they do it in the classroom as well so he will have a bit more exposure but not that much more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you heavily prepped your kid so that they would get a strong CoGat score, does that mean they REALLY belong in AAP? Doesn't that defeat the original purpose of AAP?

If you heavily prepped your kid so that they would get a strong SAT score, does that mean they REALLY belong in college?

If you heavily prepped your kid so that they would get a strong math final exam score, does that mean they REALLY deserve an A?

If you heavily prepped yourself so you do well on a sales presentation, does that mean you REALLY deserve the sale?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate the way the holistic approach is used to guess which kids may have prepped and keep them out of a program for which they're clearly smart enough. If a kid scores over 140 on the tests, then the kid should automatically be admitted. If the kid is in-pool on both NNAT and CogAT and is above grade level in reading and math, then the kid also is more than capable of handling AAP, even if the scores are a bit inflated from prepping.

The committee will never know who actually prepped, so they can only guess based on whether or not the teacher rated the kid highly. Since prepping only leads to a 5-10 point increase, it kills me to see kids with high test scores and above grade level in everything get rejected due to the holistic approach. Some of those kids probably didn't even prep. The teacher just didn't like the kid.

I mean, this (bolded) just begs the retort that if a child is so clearly smart enough, why bother prepping? There would be no need?

Regardless, I think the holistic approach merely reflects what FCPS wants for their program. And that’s fine - they can decide and people are free to disagree.

The problem isn't trying to keep kids who prepped out of AAP per se. It's that it is impossible for the selection panel to know which kids did or did not prep, so they instead are guessing. I don't have any reason to imagine that they would guess correctly. The types of parents most likely to prep are also the ones who have their child in many enrichment classes or tutoring. Those kids will seem more advanced than other kids, and will probably impress the teachers. There are many reasons that kids who are actually gifted may not impress the teacher in the right way to get a high GBRS. I really don't like something as nebulous as the committee guessing that a child may have prepped be the reason a child is rejected. At this point, prepping is widespread enough that they should just hand out prep materials to everyone to level the playing field.

I don’t think they are rejecting kids who seem to have been prepped for the tests, they are just discounting the test scores after the pool has been formed. GBRS and work samples seem to be weighed much more heavily when the final decision is made.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you heavily prepped your kid so that they would get a strong CoGat score, does that mean they REALLY belong in AAP? Doesn't that defeat the original purpose of AAP?

If you heavily prepped your kid so that they would get a strong SAT score, does that mean they REALLY belong in college?

If you heavily prepped your kid so that they would get a strong math final exam score, does that mean they REALLY deserve an A?

If you heavily prepped yourself so you do well on a sales presentation, does that mean you REALLY deserve the sale?

Yes, you're clever. But you're not right.

Fairfax used to use a real IQ test for admission to the GT program. But the district is too large to do that now so they use an IQ proxy test.

A real IQ test can be prepped, to some extent. But then it's invalid.

If you want to prep your DC for the Cogat, go ahead. Then the score's only value is for admission to AAP and is otherwise meaningless, provides no information to you or anyone else about your child. And also, you've contributed to the educational race to nowhere and increase in pressure and stress.

[Anonymous]

We’ve prepped heavily. DS reads above grade, is a grade ahead in math, and enriched up the wazoo otherwise. His score was only 120 ish. I parent referred. And then he got s STELLAR GBRS with all Cs so he got in. I don’t know anymore. This process is a mystery.