College consultant steering DS away from stretch schools

[Anonymous]

Have you talked to the counselor directly? I only ask, because all our kids filter things in a weird way.

I don't think the kid you describe is reaching too far for ND. Ideally, you apply to a bunch and you get some rejections. If you don't get rejections, you did t shoot high enough.

I think your kid outclasses Fordham. Maybe I'm just old and from NY and it has gotten better, but it certainly seems like a probable admit, if you ask me.

[Anonymous]

Your college consultant has rocks for brains.

[Anonymous]

He's very likely to get into all 4 of those schools. ND is a long shot but worth applying to if the cost is not a factor. My DC had similar stats and got into Fordham, but had a wide variety of ECs (service, academic, performance, etc) with some very strong ones (4+ year commitment with various awards). I think your DS will get into Fordham, BC might be more of a stretch, but do apply, while letting your son know that if he doesn't make it into ND, he has some great back up schools. Don't let the counselor dissuade you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks so much to everyone for your input so far. To answer the question about unweighted GPA, it is 3.8. He has taken quite a few honors classes and has a couple of APs this year. His school does not offer any APs in freshman year and only one in sophomore year (which he decided against because it is not strong subject for him). He is planning on taking 4 or 5 APs next year. He is at a Catholic HS and has done quite a bit of service including a service trip last summer and another this summer coming up. He is also very involved in the campus ministry. Plays piano at an advanced level. Played some JV sports, but not a super athlete. Is getting involved in drama this year and likes it a lot. Worked on a marketing project for a non profit. So a super full schedule but not a star in one area (not going to be playing varsity sports or a getting a lead part in the play). I think that is why our consultant doesn't think he is a shoe in. Her feeling is that he is spread out in different areas and not focused on one thing? He's kind of quiet and introverted, so I don't know if that is effecting her opinion of him perhaps.

He has yet to meet with his college counselor at school, so it would be interesting to see what he says...

Dump the other college counselor. Are you paying this person? For what? Your school counselor is enough. This counselor apparently knows nothing about your DS’s school.

Have him take his ACT already and look your DS’s school data - does anyone get in to ND from DS’s school? How many per year?

Have you apply Early Decision to ND and he should get in.

After that have him apply to other catholic and non catholic schools of interest.

My DD was high stats and when she applied to some mid-tier schools they deferred her because they didn’t believe that would attend apparently. She’s going to a highly ranked school instead.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:He's very likely to get into all 4 of those schools. ND is a long shot but worth applying to if the cost is not a factor. My DC had similar stats and got into Fordham, but had a wide variety of ECs (service, academic, performance, etc) with some very strong ones (4+ year commitment with various awards). I think your DS will get into Fordham, BC might be more of a stretch, but do apply, while letting your son know that if he doesn't make it into ND, he has some great back up schools. Don't let the counselor dissuade you.

Those awards and stuff for extras didn’t end up mattering for my DC. I wouldn’t put too much stock in those if you have a strong student.

[Anonymous]

I've had experience with this group of schools in the past couple of years. If he can convert that mock ACT into a real ACT and write some decent essays, my guess for likelihood of admission:
ND- 50%
BC- 75% (lower if CSOM, higher if not)
Holy Cross- 90%
Villanova- >95% (lower if B school)
Fordham- ~100% with significant scholarship

Other schools you mentioned (Duke) might be a reach (~30%) due to GPA.

As far as the PP telling you to consider ED at ND, be aware that ND, BC, GU, all have REA, not ED, so you can apply early to all of them without commitment, but also without really helping your chances very much. In fact, they say it is harder to get in EA. But, it is still useful in getting some early answers.

[Anonymous]

I am a college consultant and am not working with your son. Here is my honest take- most parents are wildly overconfident about their children’s chances. I can’t emphasize enough how crazy this process has gotten. In the last year alone, there have been major changes that have impacted the selectivity of schools like Villanova, for instance. Did you know that the EA acceptance rate at Villanova LAST YEAR was 58 pc and now it is 28 pc? We are talking a thirty point drop in ONE YEAR!

I’m using caps to try to explain how absurd this has gotten and how much things can and do change on a dime.

You do not know this because you are not an expert in this field. Your consultant (hopefully) IS an expert and that is why you hired her. The other moms on dcum who don’t know any more than you do are not experts.

Two other points:

- ND is not doable for a student from the DC metro without straight As in the most challenging courses, full stop. Maybe a B+ or A- here or there. Given what you said about the unweighted GPA, your son is not in the ballpark there. Don’t be fooled by a 4.0+ gpa- do you know how many kids have GPAs above a 4.0? All the weighting inflates GPAs.

-Your consultant could care less about her statistics. Why should she care what percentage get in to their top choice school or not? No higher authority is assessing her performance, like a school counselor might face. And if it’s a random statistic on her website, she could just make it up if it’s that important. I assure you, she is not screwing your kid over so that she can report a BS statistic to future clients.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What does his school profile about the distributions of GPA at your school? I know that at my kid's public school 36% have GPA's over 4.0 and 12% have GPA's over 4.5, so a 4.1 would probably be about the 75th %ile. According to their Common Data set, 91% of Notre Dame's freshmen are in the top 10th, so he'd be quite a bit lower. However, your high school may have a different distribution of GPA's.

In addition, Notre Dame considers academic rigor to be the #1 factor when admitting students. A kid who takes some honors, rather than all honors, might not make the cut. I know the kids who go to ND from the school where I teach are kids who are in all honors, and lots of AP's and still near the very top of the class.

Given that, it sounds like the counselor is being realistic. The 4 schools they mention are great schools, and not easy to get into either. And there are plenty of great Catholic schools that can be safeties.

OP here. I don't think any junior in his school has a 4.5. I believe it would be impossible based on the course offerings and GPA weighting. Also, the weighting in your DC's school is likely more aggressive (probably 5 for honors and APs) than my DS's which is only 4.5 for honors. DS has lots of friends in our local public high school and they all took lots of APS in freshman and sophomore year. That simply was not an option for my DS. I am fairly certain DS is most likely in top 10% vs the top 25% you predict, but not sure how to find that out honestly.

Also to answer the question someone else asked, in the last four years, 18 students matriculated to ND from his school. I imagine there were more acceptances than that, but that is how many actually ended up going there.

Thanks again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a college consultant and am not working with your son. Here is my honest take- most parents are wildly overconfident about their children’s chances. I can’t emphasize enough how crazy this process has gotten. In the last year alone, there have been major changes that have impacted the selectivity of schools like Villanova, for instance. Did you know that the EA acceptance rate at Villanova LAST YEAR was 58 pc and now it is 28 pc? We are talking a thirty point drop in ONE YEAR!

I’m using caps to try to explain how absurd this has gotten and how much things can and do change on a dime.

You do not know this because you are not an expert in this field. Your consultant (hopefully) IS an expert and that is why you hired her. The other moms on dcum who don’t know any more than you do are not experts.

Two other points:

- ND is not doable for a student from the DC metro without straight As in the most challenging courses, full stop. Maybe a B+ or A- here or there. Given what you said about the unweighted GPA, your son is not in the ballpark there. Don’t be fooled by a 4.0+ gpa- do you know how many kids have GPAs above a 4.0? All the weighting inflates GPAs.

-Your consultant could care less about her statistics. Why should she care what percentage get in to their top choice school or not? No higher authority is assessing her performance, like a school counselor might face. And if it’s a random statistic on her website, she could just make it up if it’s that important. I assure you, she is not screwing your kid over so that she can report a BS statistic to future clients.

OP here...Oops...I miscalculated. His unweighted is 3.86. not sure if that makes a difference, but he only had a B 2X in his freshman year (same subject first and second semester) and 1X this past semester in an AP class. Everything else mostly As and few A-.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a college consultant and am not working with your son. Here is my honest take- most parents are wildly overconfident about their children’s chances. I can’t emphasize enough how crazy this process has gotten. In the last year alone, there have been major changes that have impacted the selectivity of schools like Villanova, for instance. Did you know that the EA acceptance rate at Villanova LAST YEAR was 58 pc and now it is 28 pc? We are talking a thirty point drop in ONE YEAR!

I’m using caps to try to explain how absurd this has gotten and how much things can and do change on a dime.

You do not know this because you are not an expert in this field. Your consultant (hopefully) IS an expert and that is why you hired her. The other moms on dcum who don’t know any more than you do are not experts.

Two other points:

- ND is not doable for a student from the DC metro without straight As in the most challenging courses, full stop. Maybe a B+ or A- here or there. Given what you said about the unweighted GPA, your son is not in the ballpark there. Don’t be fooled by a 4.0+ gpa- do you know how many kids have GPAs above a 4.0? All the weighting inflates GPAs.

-Your consultant could care less about her statistics. Why should she care what percentage get in to their top choice school or not? No higher authority is assessing her performance, like a school counselor might face. And if it’s a random statistic on her website, she could just make it up if it’s that important. I assure you, she is not screwing your kid over so that she can report a BS statistic to future clients.

That is not true at many of the DC Catholic private schools, but might be true for a public school. It is very school dependent.
I’ve seen kids with high stats not get in from a public school but several students from certain Catholic schools get in with not necessarily as stellar stats ( but a challenging course load).

[Anonymous]

College Consultants are risk adverse. They want no surprises - - no upsetting, negative surprises. They manage expectations because it's good for them. They look better, and get better reviews/referrals when you, instead, are grateful when results come in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a college consultant and am not working with your son. Here is my honest take- most parents are wildly overconfident about their children’s chances. I can’t emphasize enough how crazy this process has gotten. In the last year alone, there have been major changes that have impacted the selectivity of schools like Villanova, for instance. Did you know that the EA acceptance rate at Villanova LAST YEAR was 58 pc and now it is 28 pc? We are talking a thirty point drop in ONE YEAR!

I’m using caps to try to explain how absurd this has gotten and how much things can and do change on a dime.

You do not know this because you are not an expert in this field. Your consultant (hopefully) IS an expert and that is why you hired her. The other moms on dcum who don’t know any more than you do are not experts.

Two other points:

- ND is not doable for a student from the DC metro without straight As in the most challenging courses, full stop. Maybe a B+ or A- here or there. Given what you said about the unweighted GPA, your son is not in the ballpark there. Don’t be fooled by a 4.0+ gpa- do you know how many kids have GPAs above a 4.0? All the weighting inflates GPAs.

-Your consultant could care less about her statistics. Why should she care what percentage get in to their top choice school or not? No higher authority is assessing her performance, like a school counselor might face. And if it’s a random statistic on her website, she could just make it up if it’s that important. I assure you, she is not screwing your kid over so that she can report a BS statistic to future clients.

OP here...Oops...I miscalculated. His unweighted is 3.86. not sure if that makes a difference, but he only had a B 2X in his freshman year (same subject first and second semester) and 1X this past semester in an AP class. Everything else mostly As and few A-.

Well, he’d need an upward trend for his last two years with A’s /A- in his AP classes. I wouldn’t pressure him to do that but if he doesn’t I’d cross ND off the list and go one tier down.
The average is not as important as the upward trend once the work gets harder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a college consultant and am not working with your son. Here is my honest take- most parents are wildly overconfident about their children’s chances. I can’t emphasize enough how crazy this process has gotten. In the last year alone, there have been major changes that have impacted the selectivity of schools like Villanova, for instance. Did you know that the EA acceptance rate at Villanova LAST YEAR was 58 pc and now it is 28 pc? We are talking a thirty point drop in ONE YEAR!

I’m using caps to try to explain how absurd this has gotten and how much things can and do change on a dime.

You do not know this because you are not an expert in this field. Your consultant (hopefully) IS an expert and that is why you hired her. The other moms on dcum who don’t know any more than you do are not experts.

Two other points:

- ND is not doable for a student from the DC metro without straight As in the most challenging courses, full stop. Maybe a B+ or A- here or there. Given what you said about the unweighted GPA, your son is not in the ballpark there. Don’t be fooled by a 4.0+ gpa- do you know how many kids have GPAs above a 4.0? All the weighting inflates GPAs.

-Your consultant could care less about her statistics. Why should she care what percentage get in to their top choice school or not? No higher authority is assessing her performance, like a school counselor might face. And if it’s a random statistic on her website, she could just make it up if it’s that important. I assure you, she is not screwing your kid over so that she can report a BS statistic to future clients.

OP here...Oops...I miscalculated. His unweighted is 3.86. not sure if that makes a difference, but he only had a B 2X in his freshman year (same subject first and second semester) and 1X this past semester in an AP class. Everything else mostly As and few A-.

Well, he’d need an upward trend for his last two years with A’s /A- in his AP classes. I wouldn’t pressure him to do that but if he doesn’t I’d cross ND off the list and go one tier down.
The average is not as important as the upward trend once the work gets harder.

I wouldn’t load him up with an impossible number of AP’s at a good Catholic school either - the max number allowed (3 or 4?) is enough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does his school profile about the distributions of GPA at your school? I know that at my kid's public school 36% have GPA's over 4.0 and 12% have GPA's over 4.5, so a 4.1 would probably be about the 75th %ile. According to their Common Data set, 91% of Notre Dame's freshmen are in the top 10th, so he'd be quite a bit lower. However, your high school may have a different distribution of GPA's.

In addition, Notre Dame considers academic rigor to be the #1 factor when admitting students. A kid who takes some honors, rather than all honors, might not make the cut. I know the kids who go to ND from the school where I teach are kids who are in all honors, and lots of AP's and still near the very top of the class.

Given that, it sounds like the counselor is being realistic. The 4 schools they mention are great schools, and not easy to get into either. And there are plenty of great Catholic schools that can be safeties.

OP here. I don't think any junior in his school has a 4.5. I believe it would be impossible based on the course offerings and GPA weighting. Also, the weighting in your DC's school is likely more aggressive (probably 5 for honors and APs) than my DS's which is only 4.5 for honors. DS has lots of friends in our local public high school and they all took lots of APS in freshman and sophomore year. That simply was not an option for my DS. I am fairly certain DS is most likely in top 10% vs the top 25% you predict, but not sure how to find that out honestly.

Also to answer the question someone else asked, in the last four years, 18 students matriculated to ND from his school. I imagine there were more acceptances than that, but that is how many actually ended up going there.

Thanks again.

Here's the college profile for your kid's school (unless there's another Catholic high school that accepts boys and has had 18 kids matriculate to N.D.. Seems unlikely).

https://gonzaga.myschoolapp.com/ftpimages/1021/download/download_2405506.pdf

Gonzaga does, in fact, give a whole quality point for AP's and courses considered "Advanced".

I can't find their grade distribution, but it's listed on kids' transcripts so you could just ask for one of those for your son.

Gonzaga has a reputation for great college counseling, so I would see what the counselor there says.

I'm not saying your kid shouldn't apply to ND. I'm just saying that it's helpful to apply to a variety of schools, with a variety of different levels of stretch. Having some true safeties, and some reaches, and a bunch in the middle makes sense. ND is a reach. Doesn't mean he shouldn't go for it, but his applications should be balanced.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does his school profile about the distributions of GPA at your school? I know that at my kid's public school 36% have GPA's over 4.0 and 12% have GPA's over 4.5, so a 4.1 would probably be about the 75th %ile. According to their Common Data set, 91% of Notre Dame's freshmen are in the top 10th, so he'd be quite a bit lower. However, your high school may have a different distribution of GPA's.

In addition, Notre Dame considers academic rigor to be the #1 factor when admitting students. A kid who takes some honors, rather than all honors, might not make the cut. I know the kids who go to ND from the school where I teach are kids who are in all honors, and lots of AP's and still near the very top of the class.

Given that, it sounds like the counselor is being realistic. The 4 schools they mention are great schools, and not easy to get into either. And there are plenty of great Catholic schools that can be safeties.

OP here. I don't think any junior in his school has a 4.5. I believe it would be impossible based on the course offerings and GPA weighting. Also, the weighting in your DC's school is likely more aggressive (probably 5 for honors and APs) than my DS's which is only 4.5 for honors. DS has lots of friends in our local public high school and they all took lots of APS in freshman and sophomore year. That simply was not an option for my DS. I am fairly certain DS is most likely in top 10% vs the top 25% you predict, but not sure how to find that out honestly.

Also to answer the question someone else asked, in the last four years, 18 students matriculated to ND from his school. I imagine there were more acceptances than that, but that is how many actually ended up going there.

Thanks again.

Here's the college profile for your kid's school (unless there's another Catholic high school that accepts boys and has had 18 kids matriculate to N.D.. Seems unlikely).

https://gonzaga.myschoolapp.com/ftpimages/1021/download/download_2405506.pdf

Gonzaga does, in fact, give a whole quality point for AP's and courses considered "Advanced".

I can't find their grade distribution, but it's listed on kids' transcripts so you could just ask for one of those for your son.

Gonzaga has a reputation for great college counseling, so I would see what the counselor there says.

I'm not saying your kid shouldn't apply to ND. I'm just saying that it's helpful to apply to a variety of schools, with a variety of different levels of stretch. Having some true safeties, and some reaches, and a bunch in the middle makes sense. ND is a reach. Doesn't mean he shouldn't go for it, but his applications should be balanced.

You are right. 5 for AP but only 4.5 for honors. The public’s all give 5 for both honors and APs. I think that is what the OP was trying to convey.