My Fellow Catholics Please Help Me To Understand

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am culturally Catholic, but do not practice or donate regularly.

All organized religions have the potential for abuse, OP. You need to understand this.

For the specific issue you are talking about, it will take many years to root out the old generation of priests who have been trained to protect their ilk from the law. They're an old men's club completely removed from reality. It's a good sign that our current Pope is willing to make some modest changes, but real progress won't happen until the boys who entered the Church after the scandals, are at the helm.

And if they could welcome women and married priests, I might even toddle over with my checkbook every Sunday
Probably not in my lifetime, though.

Not OP, but of course there can be abuse in all religions. But child rape/molestation/etc does not seem to have the kind of institutional protection in other religions, as it has in the Catholic Church, at many levels.

The dysfunction and corruption (coverups, etc) seems to run very deep at structural level. There isn't anything like this in any other organized religions, that I'm aware of. It's disturbing and beyond sickening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am culturally Catholic, but do not practice or donate regularly.

All organized religions have the potential for abuse, OP. You need to understand this.

For the specific issue you are talking about, it will take many years to root out the old generation of priests who have been trained to protect their ilk from the law. They're an old men's club completely removed from reality. It's a good sign that our current Pope is willing to make some modest changes, but real progress won't happen until the boys who entered the Church after the scandals, are at the helm.

And if they could welcome women and married priests, I might even toddle over with my checkbook every Sunday
Probably not in my lifetime, though.

Not OP, but of course there can be abuse in all religions. But child rape/molestation/etc does not seem to have the kind of institutional protection in other religions, as it has in the Catholic Church, at many levels.

The dysfunction and corruption (coverups, etc) seems to run very deep at structural level. There isn't anything like this in any other organized religions, that I'm aware of. It's disturbing and beyond sickening.

And you know why, right? The Catholic Church is the most powerful religious entity with a strict hierarchical structure. No other religion has such a pyramidal organization accompanied by such wealth and such entrenched, century-old, traditions. The Catholic Church cemented its hold in the Middle Ages and has been going strong ever since, despite the Wars of Religion. It's a recipe for great power, but great abuse too, in all realms: people rightly focus on the sex scandals, because they involve vulnerable populations, but there have been billions of dollars siphoned off at the Vatican which have not been used for their intended purposes. Not surprising, but as I said, change is slow, but it will happen. The Church is realizing that modern people want to have much more of a say and have way more liberal views than before, and the African churches aren't financially powerful enough to impose their conservative views.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am culturally Catholic, but do not practice or donate regularly.

All organized religions have the potential for abuse, OP. You need to understand this.

For the specific issue you are talking about, it will take many years to root out the old generation of priests who have been trained to protect their ilk from the law. They're an old men's club completely removed from reality. It's a good sign that our current Pope is willing to make some modest changes, but real progress won't happen until the boys who entered the Church after the scandals, are at the helm.

And if they could welcome women and married priests, I might even toddle over with my checkbook every Sunday
Probably not in my lifetime, though.

The guy recalled by the Vatican b/c of child pornograpy is all of 44. So, a ways to go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I was raised Catholic. I've come to believe that the Church in large part rests on a powerful sexual complex that arises from celibacy and control of women's fertility. That gave rise to scandals like child sex abuse and the Magdalnene laundries and 1000s of dead children buried in septic tanks in Ireland.

Priests were originally allowed to get married but the church didn't want family members to inherit property. It seems like they then had to create a theological reason for it and made up all these celibacy/chastity rules.


Someone once compared the the relationship between the self and religion to the parent/child relationship. The child is loyal to and wants to please the parent even in very dysfunctional situations.

I stuck around a long time, found a progressive local church but then I ultimately asked myself "are you in or out". I decided that I was out. In particular, I didn't want my kids to be part of it. They can make their own decisions one day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Good will triumph over evil, and the scandal will be wiped from our church. It end no other way.

In the meantime, keep praying and working his vineyard in your parish!

You are the living embodiment of the baptismal promise made by your parents, and you'll never be true at home breaking that promise.

What about the promise the church made to its children? Typical catholic guilt trip.

Guilt and threats of eternal damnation is a great business model for retention, isn't it?

[Anonymous]

OP,

First of all, studies have found that the prevalence of sexual abuse is not higher among Catholics or Catholic clergy than other organizations.

http://www.newsweek.com/priests-commit-no-more-abuse-other-males-70625

Since the Catholic Church is very centralized, however, it is easier to connect the cases, than say, Evangelicals, Baptists, or even Reformed Judaism, since within these faith traditions, each place of worship operates far more independently.

Also, everyone knows that pedophiles are attracted to jobs where they have contact with children. It is not their piety that brings them to the Catholic church as priests, but rather the opportunity to be near children. It is also why pedophiles become teachers, coaches, daycare workers, and even ministers in other denominations, etc. The Catholic Church's role in running schools/orphanages/etc, however, made it very attractive to pedophiles.

Next, while the way the abuse cases were handled was obviously horrible, but forty years ago many people did not know that pedophiles could not be redeemed. It was generally believed that with counseling and removing them from the environment, they would be ok. Now we know that was an awful, awful, decision.

As to why the Vatican official was recalled, I don't know. I do know that was most likely a political decision-- maybe Vatican officials believed that he would not receive a fair trial here given the strong associations between priests and abusers, I have no idea. Given the changes and procedures the Church now has in place to protect children, however, I am hopeful they will do the right thing, even if it is back in Italy.

None of this is to defend the church's actions, only to put them in context. Christ said that those who hinder the faith of the children, it would be better if a millstone were to be put around their neck and tossed into the water. I firmly believe that these priests will pay deeply, not only for the horrible, horrible sins they committed against the children, but also for the loss of faith that resulted in so many. I also believe that God has compassion on those who cannot remain faithful to the church in light of the scandals. I pray you do not lose your faith, but would encourage you to examine the faith of the other apostolic churches (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian church of the east) where the sacraments still live and the faith is kept.

As to why I keep my faith: I trust in God. I believe His promise that the church will not be destroyed and the faith will remain true. Throughout the past 2,000 years there have been many horrible priests (and popes!) who committed other grievous sins, and still the faith presses on. I find writings of the saints, particularly Eastern Christians (like St. Seraphim of Sarov) or those influenced by Eastern beliefs, like St. John of the Cross, to be very edifying and helpful for deepening the faith.

Good luck and prayers for you.

[Anonymous]

16:35 explains it very well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:16:35 explains it very well.

As 12:21 said: "There are several ways to stay in the church despite the child sex scandal-- denying it, rationalizing it or not caring about it."

16:35 is an excellent example of rationalizing. If this works for you, you can stay in the church, or one of its eastern cousins.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:16:35 explains it very well.

As 12:21 said: "There are several ways to stay in the church despite the child sex scandal-- denying it, rationalizing it or not caring about it."

16:35 is an excellent example of rationalizing. If this works for you, you can stay in the church, or one of its eastern cousins.

12:21 and 1:26 are excellent examples of binary thinking. Critical thinking it's not.

[Anonymous]

16:35 - I could understand your position if it were a matter of priests and severe abuse of their position. But it's not just that, but systemic protections of criminals within the institution. And again with the recall, it's "we'll handle it internally."

I don't know how anyone can truly believe that things are different, or trust the Church to handle severe crimes with severity, when that has never been the case.

It's one thing to trust God - it's another thing to trust the Church. I do not understand how anyone in good conscience can trust the latter anymore. The rot obviously runs very, very deep.

[Anonymous]

16:35 here.

While I understand the point about rationalizing, I do not think that is it. I have no thoughts of it being, "not so bad" or anything ridiculous like that. I think it was horrible and shook me to my core.

It is just that I trust in the Church for the faith, not in the people who run it. I go to the church to receive the sacraments because I believe in what they do. When I meet a holy priest, I seek their counsel and advice when needed, but I do not automatically think that any priest is holy or even good. I read and learn from the people who have proven their merit as saints. I see the faith as something that has been incredibly passed down through the generations DESPITE the sinful priests who have run the institutional church throughout the years, not BECAUSE of them.

It also helps that I am good friends with several priests that I have known for over a decade since their days as seminarians. I know they are trustworthy men striving towards holiness and I see in their generation the seeds of change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:16:35 here.

While I understand the point about rationalizing, I do not think that is it. I have no thoughts of it being, "not so bad" or anything ridiculous like that. I think it was horrible and shook me to my core.

It is just that I trust in the Church for the faith, not in the people who run it. I go to the church to receive the sacraments because I believe in what they do. When I meet a holy priest, I seek their counsel and advice when needed, but I do not automatically think that any priest is holy or even good. I read and learn from the people who have proven their merit as saints. I see the faith as something that has been incredibly passed down through the generations DESPITE the sinful priests who have run the institutional church throughout the years, not BECAUSE of them.

It also helps that I am good friends with several priests that I have known for over a decade since their days as seminarians. I know they are trustworthy men striving towards holiness and I see in their generation the seeds of change.

This sounds like rationalization. What would be another why of describing it?

Also, it's not only the people who run the Church who are a problem, it's the people, e.g., some ordinary priests and parishioners, who take part in or cover up child sex abuse.

To OP -- if this rationalization resonates with you, perhaps you can stay in the church. If not, it may be time to leave.

[Anonymous]

My father converted from Catholicism to Lutheranism. A friend of mine simply left the Church.
Having said that, the poster who wrote that other denominations also have pedophile ministers and priests is correct. I have a friend who was sexually abused by a Baptist minister when he was a child.
I think the difference is that the Catholic church is centralized. What makes the abuse horrific is that the Vatican moved pedophile priests to new parishes rather than get rid of them.

Some justify staying in the Church because they like the current Pope and think that he is a good person.

[Anonymous]

As some background, I was raised Catholic and grew up in a *very* Catholic family.
Went to Catholic school from preschool through college, and overall my experience was actually amazing. Some of the most brilliant, strong, inspirational women I know are Catholic nuns. My education was amazing, and very much focused on love and social justice.
All of which is to demonstrate that I'm not a rabid anti-Catholic poster, nor am I someone who hated being Catholic growing up. I very much value what Catholicism gave me.
However... now that I have kids, I started to be concerned about some things. What would they learn in CCD about families? About the inherent worth and dignity of each person? About their value as women? And yes - the abuse scandal was in the back of my mind too.

So I spent several months researching other religions, visit other churches, really praying a lot.
And about a year ago, we became Episcopalian and haven't looked back.
In many ways it feels the same. Same words (and includes "and also with you!" and not the new "spirit" stuff!), similar sense of granduer and ceremony. But in other ways, it's like I've finally found "home" I don't need to compartmentalize like I always had to as a Catholic. I don't need to worry about what my kids will be taught at Sunday school. And - bonus! - my kids actually love going to Sunday school now!

All of which is to say... maybe your discomfort right now is really a calling to explore another way to worship. Check it out. Do some research. Say some prayers. Find a place where you feel whole.

[Anonymous]

^^PP again...

I was SO worried about telling my parents. They really just rolled with it. I got one snarky comment from an aunt last Christmas, but other than that, my Catholic friends and family generally understood.
(On the other hand, if my grandmother had still been alive, I might have just conveniently neglected to tell her, for fear of killing her