I believe in God...and I think s/he's a nasty SOB

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm kind of with you OP. It's hard to argue against a creator, but I can't fathom worshiping whoever allows babies to get cancer or be horribly abused, and then there's natural disasters, like Houston at the moment.

It boggles my mind to see someone on TV saying "We only survived because God was watching over us!" after being rescued, without addressing those who didn't survive, why wasn't God watching overly er them? Like the story I read today of the six month old baby who drowned when he was ripped out of his parents arms by flood waters while they were trying to stay alive in a tree! Why wasn't God watching over him? No, just you and your kids, right lady on TV? And by the way, who exactly caused the hurricane and the flood?

I'm sure there's a minister out there who has an explanation for all this, but the bottom line is nobody knows the answer.

I'm the PP Minister. I held an eight month old baby as she died not long ago. She was born to a drug addicted mother. All we could do was try to provide pain relief and hold her tightly when she had seizures. Her death was heartbreaking. It shook me to my core. She was with us in the inpatient unit for months. We all bonded with her. Her entire life was suffering. She smiled and cooed. But I know she was in pain even on the strong narcotics. How do you talk about that kind of death? How could I provide spiritual care to the nurses, doctors, social workers, etc who cared for her and loved her? You are correct - We don't have all the answers. But that baby's short life had meaning and purpose. Her mother's bad choices caused her death. But her life taught all those who knew her a lot about unconditional love, about compassion, grief, and letting go. She brought a lot of joy to a lot of people.

I don't think God ever causes bad things to happen. I do think he allows bad things to happen exactly because we all have free will. And the actions (or inaction) of others affects us. I think God uses those bad experiences to help us grow into more loving, compassionate people.

Just my thoughts. Others will have different, but equally important explanations. I grapple with this every day. I'm asked questions like this at work all the time. I believe part of our purpose is to think about these things. I'm not sure there is one right answer. My only role is to lead people towards their own answers.

[Anonymous]

Free will=shit happens. Read the bible. Get an easy to read edition. Ignore the old testament. You will gain some understanding. I used to be like you, now my eyes are opened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Actually I agree with you OP. I don't believe in free will, personally (free will doesn't make sense at all), so I have come to a similar conclusion as yours.

I mostly don't think God is nasty, exactly, just seeing all of this from a totally alien perspective. Rape, murder, genocide, families being torn apart - all of that is God's will. But I don't even think this Being sees it as serious. Maybe like a video game.

Here's why I don't believe "all bad things are free will, not God's will":
- why do 10-year olds get terminal cancer?
- we all act from reactive behavior because we're programmed through mental conditioning. It takes YEARS of meditation and journaling to get out of reactive thinking and truly "think freely". And who put our pre-programmed mental patterns into place? Yeah.
- There are personal stories of divine beings like angels intervening in people's lives ALL THE TIME. If "everything is free will" then no way is someone going to experience an angel catching their kid before it dies from a fall or pulling them out of harm's way before a bus hits them (stories like this exist).
- God can't actually have the powers of a God if free will exists. It would mean She/He isn't omnipotent and omniscient.

You clearly misunderstand free will.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm kind of with you OP. It's hard to argue against a creator, but I can't fathom worshiping whoever allows babies to get cancer or be horribly abused, and then there's natural disasters, like Houston at the moment.

It boggles my mind to see someone on TV saying "We only survived because God was watching over us!" after being rescued, without addressing those who didn't survive, why wasn't God watching overly er them? Like the story I read today of the six month old baby who drowned when he was ripped out of his parents arms by flood waters while they were trying to stay alive in a tree! Why wasn't God watching over him? No, just you and your kids, right lady on TV? And by the way, who exactly caused the hurricane and the flood?

I'm sure there's a minister out there who has an explanation for all this, but the bottom line is nobody knows the answer.

I'm the PP Minister. I held an eight month old baby as she died not long ago. She was born to a drug addicted mother. All we could do was try to provide pain relief and hold her tightly when she had seizures. Her death was heartbreaking. It shook me to my core. She was with us in the inpatient unit for months. We all bonded with her. Her entire life was suffering. She smiled and cooed. But I know she was in pain even on the strong narcotics. How do you talk about that kind of death? How could I provide spiritual care to the nurses, doctors, social workers, etc who cared for her and loved her? You are correct - We don't have all the answers. But that baby's short life had meaning and purpose. Her mother's bad choices caused her death. But her life taught all those who knew her a lot about unconditional love, about compassion, grief, and letting go. She brought a lot of joy to a lot of people.

I don't think God ever causes bad things to happen. I do think he allows bad things to happen exactly because we all have free will. And the actions (or inaction) of others affects us. I think God uses those bad experiences to help us grow into more loving, compassionate people.

Just my thoughts. Others will have different, but equally important explanations. I grapple with this every day. I'm asked questions like this at work all the time. I believe part of our purpose is to think about these things. I'm not sure there is one right answer. My only role is to lead people towards their own answers.

Not trying to be disrespectful to ministers, but please explain the correlation between a baby who suffers because her mother was a drug addict and a baby who is ripped out of it's mother or fathers arms as they hang onto a tree trying to save themselves from a flood. What exactly did they do wrong? How does "free will" come into that scenario? Just wondering.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm kind of with you OP. It's hard to argue against a creator, but I can't fathom worshiping whoever allows babies to get cancer or be horribly abused, and then there's natural disasters, like Houston at the moment.

It boggles my mind to see someone on TV saying "We only survived because God was watching over us!" after being rescued, without addressing those who didn't survive, why wasn't God watching overly er them? Like the story I read today of the six month old baby who drowned when he was ripped out of his parents arms by flood waters while they were trying to stay alive in a tree! Why wasn't God watching over him? No, just you and your kids, right lady on TV? And by the way, who exactly caused the hurricane and the flood?

I'm sure there's a minister out there who has an explanation for all this, but the bottom line is nobody knows the answer.

I'm the PP Minister. I held an eight month old baby as she died not long ago. She was born to a drug addicted mother. All we could do was try to provide pain relief and hold her tightly when she had seizures. Her death was heartbreaking. It shook me to my core. She was with us in the inpatient unit for months. We all bonded with her. Her entire life was suffering. She smiled and cooed. But I know she was in pain even on the strong narcotics. How do you talk about that kind of death? How could I provide spiritual care to the nurses, doctors, social workers, etc who cared for her and loved her? You are correct - We don't have all the answers. But that baby's short life had meaning and purpose. Her mother's bad choices caused her death. But her life taught all those who knew her a lot about unconditional love, about compassion, grief, and letting go. She brought a lot of joy to a lot of people.

I don't think God ever causes bad things to happen. I do think he allows bad things to happen exactly because we all have free will. And the actions (or inaction) of others affects us. I think God uses those bad experiences to help us grow into more loving, compassionate people.

Just my thoughts. Others will have different, but equally important explanations. I grapple with this every day. I'm asked questions like this at work all the time. I believe part of our purpose is to think about these things. I'm not sure there is one right answer. My only role is to lead people towards their own answers.

Not trying to be disrespectful to ministers, but please explain the correlation between a baby who suffers because her mother was a drug addict and a baby who is ripped out of it's mother or fathers arms as they hang onto a tree trying to save themselves from a flood. What exactly did they do wrong? How does "free will" come into that scenario? Just wondering.

I don't think there necessarily is a correlation. I don't think the parents did anything wrong. But other people's decisions, good or bad, led to that baby's death. God did not cause the baby to die. I do not believe God wanted that infant to die. I believe God grieves when we hurt. I could list a hundred possible causes from bad urban planning to climate change to choosing not to evacuate. Most of the time, I can't come up with any cause. But I do not believe God causes suffering. And I don't believe in any evil being. I think we live in a world where we have choices. And that free will can lead to suffering.

Again, I want to stress that I don't have the answers. I became a minister because the questions are important to me. I'm just sharing my thoughts.

[Anonymous]

I think it's obvious that god cannot be all-knowing, all powerful AND all good at the same time. Only 2 of the three is possible. Either it doesn't care about innocents suffering, or it does care but not powerful enough to prevent it, or does care and is powerful but doesn't know it will happen. Any two of the three can exist together, but not all three.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it's obvious that god cannot be all-knowing, all powerful AND all good at the same time. Only 2 of the three is possible. Either it doesn't care about innocents suffering, or it does care but not powerful enough to prevent it, or does care and is powerful but doesn't know it will happen. Any two of the three can exist together, but not all three.

What if the only way we can grow spiritually is through suffering? What if you need to experience loss in order to be truly compassionate? Maybe in order to know and show genuine love, you need to understand hate? To be merciful, someone needs to show you mercy?

Or... Maybe the only way we become kinder, more loving, and more compassionate is when someone shows us those attributes. Those powerful, life changing emotions we feel when another person shows us unconditional love, acceptance, and kindness. The problem is, we only need those things when we are suffering. Therefore, suffering is a natural part of life. God is often revealed through others during times of pain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's obvious that god cannot be all-knowing, all powerful AND all good at the same time. Only 2 of the three is possible. Either it doesn't care about innocents suffering, or it does care but not powerful enough to prevent it, or does care and is powerful but doesn't know it will happen. Any two of the three can exist together, but not all three.

What if the only way we can grow spiritually is through suffering? What if you need to experience loss in order to be truly compassionate? Maybe in order to know and show genuine love, you need to understand hate? To be merciful, someone needs to show you mercy?

Or... Maybe the only way we become kinder, more loving, and more compassionate is when someone shows us those attributes. Those powerful, life changing emotions we feel when another person shows us unconditional love, acceptance, and kindness. The problem is, we only need those things when we are suffering. Therefore, suffering is a natural part of life. God is often revealed through others during times of pain.

Why would god create us in such a way that we only grow through suffering? Doesn't sound all powerful to me. And, if that had to be the case, why is the system set up so that one person grows through another persons suffering? Why did that baby have to suffer so someone else could grow? No. An all powerful, all good, all knowing entity could have created a better system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually I agree with you OP. I don't believe in free will, personally (free will doesn't make sense at all), so I have come to a similar conclusion as yours.

I mostly don't think God is nasty, exactly, just seeing all of this from a totally alien perspective. Rape, murder, genocide, families being torn apart - all of that is God's will. But I don't even think this Being sees it as serious. Maybe like a video game.

Here's why I don't believe "all bad things are free will, not God's will":
- why do 10-year olds get terminal cancer?
- we all act from reactive behavior because we're programmed through mental conditioning. It takes YEARS of meditation and journaling to get out of reactive thinking and truly "think freely". And who put our pre-programmed mental patterns into place? Yeah.
- There are personal stories of divine beings like angels intervening in people's lives ALL THE TIME. If "everything is free will" then no way is someone going to experience an angel catching their kid before it dies from a fall or pulling them out of harm's way before a bus hits them (stories like this exist).
- God can't actually have the powers of a God if free will exists. It would mean She/He isn't omnipotent and omniscient.

You clearly misunderstand free will.

And you clearly had such thoughtful philosophical arguments to counter mine. I feel enlightened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's obvious that god cannot be all-knowing, all powerful AND all good at the same time. Only 2 of the three is possible. Either it doesn't care about innocents suffering, or it does care but not powerful enough to prevent it, or does care and is powerful but doesn't know it will happen. Any two of the three can exist together, but not all three.

What if the only way we can grow spiritually is through suffering? What if you need to experience loss in order to be truly compassionate? Maybe in order to know and show genuine love, you need to understand hate? To be merciful, someone needs to show you mercy?

Or... Maybe the only way we become kinder, more loving, and more compassionate is when someone shows us those attributes. Those powerful, life changing emotions we feel when another person shows us unconditional love, acceptance, and kindness. The problem is, we only need those things when we are suffering. Therefore, suffering is a natural part of life. God is often revealed through others during times of pain.

Why would god create us in such a way that we only grow through suffering? Doesn't sound all powerful to me. And, if that had to be the case, why is the system set up so that one person grows through another persons suffering? Why did that baby have to suffer so someone else could grow? No. An all powerful, all good, all knowing entity could have created a better system.

What if that all powerful, all knowing, all good being was simply the creative consciousness of everything that ever is and was? What if "God" (source, universe, first-mover, Allah, ....) is everything. And we are simply a part of that everything. The same way the waves are a part of the ocean. They are a part of each other. They can never be separated. God didn't create the universe. He/She IS the universe.

[Anonymous]

I think I actually believe the concepts of God and religion exist because of this:

1--To give people something deep to ponder and then think they know the answers

2--To comfort people at times of suffering if they need more than their own resources provide

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's obvious that god cannot be all-knowing, all powerful AND all good at the same time. Only 2 of the three is possible. Either it doesn't care about innocents suffering, or it does care but not powerful enough to prevent it, or does care and is powerful but doesn't know it will happen. Any two of the three can exist together, but not all three.

What if the only way we can grow spiritually is through suffering? What if you need to experience loss in order to be truly compassionate? Maybe in order to know and show genuine love, you need to understand hate? To be merciful, someone needs to show you mercy?

Or... Maybe the only way we become kinder, more loving, and more compassionate is when someone shows us those attributes. Those powerful, life changing emotions we feel when another person shows us unconditional love, acceptance, and kindness. The problem is, we only need those things when we are suffering. Therefore, suffering is a natural part of life. God is often revealed through others during times of pain.

Why would god create us in such a way that we only grow through suffering? Doesn't sound all powerful to me. And, if that had to be the case, why is the system set up so that one person grows through another persons suffering? Why did that baby have to suffer so someone else could grow? No. An all powerful, all good, all knowing entity could have created a better system.

Then it's not all powerful in the way that I think of "powerful", which requires the ability to change anything as it desires. That's a lovely thought (and as likely to be true as anything else) but I don't think that's really god in the way we traditionally think of god.

What if that all powerful, all knowing, all good being was simply the creative consciousness of everything that ever is and was? What if "God" (source, universe, first-mover, Allah, ....) is everything. And we are simply a part of that everything. The same way the waves are a part of the ocean. They are a part of each other. They can never be separated. God didn't create the universe. He/She IS the universe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it's obvious that god cannot be all-knowing, all powerful AND all good at the same time. Only 2 of the three is possible. Either it doesn't care about innocents suffering, or it does care but not powerful enough to prevent it, or does care and is powerful but doesn't know it will happen. Any two of the three can exist together, but not all three.

Aren't you claiming to be all-knowing yourself to say that God can't be all-knowing, all powerful and all good at the same time? You're claiming knowledge of the reasons and purposes why things happen that you can't possibly have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's obvious that god cannot be all-knowing, all powerful AND all good at the same time. Only 2 of the three is possible. Either it doesn't care about innocents suffering, or it does care but not powerful enough to prevent it, or does care and is powerful but doesn't know it will happen. Any two of the three can exist together, but not all three.

Aren't you claiming to be all-knowing yourself to say that God can't be all-knowing, all powerful and all good at the same time? You're claiming knowledge of the reasons and purposes why things happen that you can't possibly have.

After I wrote that, I did think it was pretty arrogant and obnoxious to say obviously. But no, I don't agree with you. I certainly don't think I know everything. Look, all I'm saying is that if a person came to you and said she knew about this horrible thing that was going to happen and could have stopped it but chose not to, you would be appalled. And if she justified the inaction by saying she thought it would teach them compassion or some of them made bad choices, I don't think you'd be satisfied with that response. Shouldn't we hold god to at least that standard?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm kind of with you OP. It's hard to argue against a creator, but I can't fathom worshiping whoever allows babies to get cancer or be horribly abused, and then there's natural disasters, like Houston at the moment.

It boggles my mind to see someone on TV saying "We only survived because God was watching over us!" after being rescued, without addressing those who didn't survive, why wasn't God watching overly er them? Like the story I read today of the six month old baby who drowned when he was ripped out of his parents arms by flood waters while they were trying to stay alive in a tree! Why wasn't God watching over him? No, just you and your kids, right lady on TV? And by the way, who exactly caused the hurricane and the flood?

I'm sure there's a minister out there who has an explanation for all this, but the bottom line is nobody knows the answer.

I'm the PP Minister. I held an eight month old baby as she died not long ago. She was born to a drug addicted mother. All we could do was try to provide pain relief and hold her tightly when she had seizures. Her death was heartbreaking. It shook me to my core. She was with us in the inpatient unit for months. We all bonded with her. Her entire life was suffering. She smiled and cooed. But I know she was in pain even on the strong narcotics. How do you talk about that kind of death? How could I provide spiritual care to the nurses, doctors, social workers, etc who cared for her and loved her? You are correct - We don't have all the answers. But that baby's short life had meaning and purpose. Her mother's bad choices caused her death. But her life taught all those who knew her a lot about unconditional love, about compassion, grief, and letting go. She brought a lot of joy to a lot of people.

I don't think God ever causes bad things to happen. I do think he allows bad things to happen exactly because we all have free will. And the actions (or inaction) of others affects us. I think God uses those bad experiences to help us grow into more loving, compassionate people.

Just my thoughts. Others will have different, but equally important explanations. I grapple with this every day. I'm asked questions like this at work all the time. I believe part of our purpose is to think about these things. I'm not sure there is one right answer. My only role is to lead people towards their own answers.

I get what you are saying but not all terible things are a result of humans exercising their free will over themselves or others. Certain cancers, for instance.