I believe in God...and I think s/he's a nasty SOB

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have decided that God exists. But s/he's not the merciful, benevolent being that many would like to believe. S/he's a nasty SOB who doesn't care what happens to any one of us, but out of his/her own vanity and egocentricity, decided to create us. S/he has abandoned us; and instead, sits idly by while we destroy ourselves and each other. Pain and suffering is just a spectrum, some of us on both end of the extreme, but most of us are somewhere in the middle.

Nothing, and I mean nothing, has given me peace (not even my short-lived attempt at atheism) until I came to this realization. That is all.

I agree too. She is Kali, the mother destroyer. She is both wonderful and horrible beyond belief. She nurtures us and destroys us, gives us pleasure and pain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have decided that God exists. But s/he's not the merciful, benevolent being that many would like to believe. S/he's a nasty SOB who doesn't care what happens to any one of us, but out of his/her own vanity and egocentricity, decided to create us. S/he has abandoned us; and instead, sits idly by while we destroy ourselves and each other. Pain and suffering is just a spectrum, some of us on both end of the extreme, but most of us are somewhere in the middle.

Nothing, and I mean nothing, has given me peace (not even my short-lived attempt at atheism) until I came to this realization. That is all.

I agree too. She is Kali, the mother destroyer. She is both wonderful and horrible beyond belief. She nurtures us and destroys us, gives us pleasure and pain.

Love this. She's an awesome goddess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm kind of with you OP. It's hard to argue against a creator, but I can't fathom worshiping whoever allows babies to get cancer or be horribly abused, and then there's natural disasters, like Houston at the moment.

It boggles my mind to see someone on TV saying "We only survived because God was watching over us!" after being rescued, without addressing those who didn't survive, why wasn't God watching over them? Like the story I read today of the six month old baby who drowned when he was ripped out of his parents arms by flood waters while they were trying to stay alive in a tree! Why wasn't God watching over him? No, just you and your kids, right lady on TV? And by the way, who exactly caused the hurricane and the flood?

I'm sure there's a minister out there who has an explanation for all this, but the bottom line is nobody knows the answer.

A religious person might say that God was watching over him, but had a different outcome in store for him. He may not understand it now, but someday it will become clear, with God's grace.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Actually I agree with you OP. I don't believe in free will, personally (free will doesn't make sense at all), so I have come to a similar conclusion as yours.

I mostly don't think God is nasty, exactly, just seeing all of this from a totally alien perspective. Rape, murder, genocide, families being torn apart - all of that is God's will. But I don't even think this Being sees it as serious. Maybe like a video game.

Here's why I don't believe "all bad things are free will, not God's will":
- why do 10-year olds get terminal cancer?
- we all act from reactive behavior because we're programmed through mental conditioning. It takes YEARS of meditation and journaling to get out of reactive thinking and truly "think freely". And who put our pre-programmed mental patterns into place? Yeah.
- There are personal stories of divine beings like angels intervening in people's lives ALL THE TIME. If "everything is free will" then no way is someone going to experience an angel catching their kid before it dies from a fall or pulling them out of harm's way before a bus hits them (stories like this exist).
- God can't actually have the powers of a God if free will exists. It would mean She/He isn't omnipotent and omniscient.

Keep in mind that these are stories. Doesn't mind they actually happened. Could be made-up or just people's perception of what happened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Free will=shit happens. Read the bible. Get an easy to read edition. Ignore the old testament. You will gain some understanding. I used to be like you, now my eyes are opened.

Why would God make His book hard to read and why would he want people to ignore and first part of what he wrote?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm kind of with you OP. It's hard to argue against a creator, but I can't fathom worshiping whoever allows babies to get cancer or be horribly abused, and then there's natural disasters, like Houston at the moment.

It boggles my mind to see someone on TV saying "We only survived because God was watching over us!" after being rescued, without addressing those who didn't survive, why wasn't God watching overly er them? Like the story I read today of the six month old baby who drowned when he was ripped out of his parents arms by flood waters while they were trying to stay alive in a tree! Why wasn't God watching over him? No, just you and your kids, right lady on TV? And by the way, who exactly caused the hurricane and the flood?

I'm sure there's a minister out there who has an explanation for all this, but the bottom line is nobody knows the answer.

I'm the PP Minister. I held an eight month old baby as she died not long ago. She was born to a drug addicted mother. All we could do was try to provide pain relief and hold her tightly when she had seizures. Her death was heartbreaking. It shook me to my core. She was with us in the inpatient unit for months. We all bonded with her. Her entire life was suffering. She smiled and cooed. But I know she was in pain even on the strong narcotics. How do you talk about that kind of death? How could I provide spiritual care to the nurses, doctors, social workers, etc who cared for her and loved her? You are correct - We don't have all the answers. But that baby's short life had meaning and purpose. Her mother's bad choices caused her death. But her life taught all those who knew her a lot about unconditional love, about compassion, grief, and letting go. She brought a lot of joy to a lot of people.

I don't think God ever causes bad things to happen. I do think he allows bad things to happen exactly because we all have free will. And the actions (or inaction) of others affects us. I think God uses those bad experiences to help us grow into more loving, compassionate people.

Just my thoughts. Others will have different, but equally important explanations. I grapple with this every day. I'm asked questions like this at work all the time. I believe part of our purpose is to think about these things. I'm not sure there is one right answer. My only role is to lead people towards their own answers.

Not trying to be disrespectful to ministers, but please explain the correlation between a baby who suffers because her mother was a drug addict and a baby who is ripped out of it's mother or fathers arms as they hang onto a tree trying to save themselves from a flood. What exactly did they do wrong? How does "free will" come into that scenario? Just wondering.

I don't think there necessarily is a correlation. I don't think the parents did anything wrong. But other people's decisions, good or bad, led to that baby's death. God did not cause the baby to die. I do not believe God wanted that infant to die. I believe God grieves when we hurt. I could list a hundred possible causes from bad urban planning to climate change to choosing not to evacuate. Most of the time, I can't come up with any cause. But I do not believe God causes suffering. And I don't believe in any evil being. I think we live in a world where we have choices. And that free will can lead to suffering.

Again, I want to stress that I don't have the answers. I became a minister because the questions are important to me. I'm just sharing my thoughts.

I believe you when you say you don't have the answers, but you nonetheless seem quite sure when you say certain things about God, like he grieves when we hurt and doesn't cause bad things to happen.

Do you think he can cause good things to happen? What does he do for us, besides grieve with us? What is the point of a God who grieves with us. or what is the point of praying to such a god, when the ultimate result might that he grieves when our prayers are not answered. Plenty of people can grieve with us and some can also offer practical help that could prevent the need to grieve -- e.g., a doctor or someone with a rescue boat in a flood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You sound very angry.

+1

I feel really sorry for you, OP. God doesn't promise we won't tested, only that we won't be overcome. I've met genocide survivors who have a healthier mindset than you.

Some people ARE overcome. Also, regarding the genocide survivors, maybe they think god favored them by not letting them be killed along with everyone else. Maybe they prayed to god to be spared and think their prayers were answered - and that other people either did not pray or did not have their prayers answered.

[Anonymous]

It does feel like we are just living in a video game and the entire point of the game is just to watch us suffer and hurt one another. We are given a few crumbs of hope or happiness only to be crushed again. You realize that everything and everyone you care about is temporary. I thought the pp who is the minister put a lot of thought and kindness into their words. Sometimes I try to believe what the minister was saying. Other times I feel exactly like OP. I have had struggles since the day I was born from being abandoned as a baby to cancer and chronic severe pain as an adult. I went into Healthcare to help people but I continue to be knocked down. My child was almost killed this year in an accident. I look around and am just sick of all the horrible people winning at this shitty life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It does feel like we are just living in a video game and the entire point of the game is just to watch us suffer and hurt one another. We are given a few crumbs of hope or happiness only to be crushed again. You realize that everything and everyone you care about is temporary. I thought the pp who is the minister put a lot of thought and kindness into their words. Sometimes I try to believe what the minister was saying. Other times I feel exactly like OP. I have had struggles since the day I was born from being abandoned as a baby to cancer and chronic severe pain as an adult. I went into Healthcare to help people but I continue to be knocked down. My child was almost killed this year in an accident. I look around and am just sick of all the horrible people winning at this shitty life.

Sorry for your trials. Life certainly isn't fair or even very predictable -- which means it could get better.

As for everything being temporary -- that's true -- our lives are short. Many potential humans don't even get a life. Granted, that's the optimistic way of looking at it.

So far, I've been lucky to have a pretty good life. I know it's an accident and could change at any time.

[Anonymous]

Thanks pp. Life is not fair - that is for sure. I wish there were no suffering.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks pp. Life is not fair - that is for sure. I wish there were no suffering.

No suffering is what heaven is supposed to be. While Hell is constant suffering, if you believe in it.

The only thing we humans know for sure is life --- which involves some suffering - not equally or fairly distributed in the population.

It's another sign, as far as I'm concerned, that there's no benevolent being pulling the strings. And who needs a benevolent being who can only cry with us when we're in pain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm kind of with you OP. It's hard to argue against a creator, but I can't fathom worshiping whoever allows babies to get cancer or be horribly abused, and then there's natural disasters, like Houston at the moment.

It boggles my mind to see someone on TV saying "We only survived because God was watching over us!" after being rescued, without addressing those who didn't survive, why wasn't God watching overly er them? Like the story I read today of the six month old baby who drowned when he was ripped out of his parents arms by flood waters while they were trying to stay alive in a tree! Why wasn't God watching over him? No, just you and your kids, right lady on TV? And by the way, who exactly caused the hurricane and the flood?

I'm sure there's a minister out there who has an explanation for all this, but the bottom line is nobody knows the answer.

I'm the PP Minister. I held an eight month old baby as she died not long ago. She was born to a drug addicted mother. All we could do was try to provide pain relief and hold her tightly when she had seizures. Her death was heartbreaking. It shook me to my core. She was with us in the inpatient unit for months. We all bonded with her. Her entire life was suffering. She smiled and cooed. But I know she was in pain even on the strong narcotics. How do you talk about that kind of death? How could I provide spiritual care to the nurses, doctors, social workers, etc who cared for her and loved her? You are correct - We don't have all the answers. But that baby's short life had meaning and purpose. Her mother's bad choices caused her death. But her life taught all those who knew her a lot about unconditional love, about compassion, grief, and letting go. She brought a lot of joy to a lot of people.

I don't think God ever causes bad things to happen. I do think he allows bad things to happen exactly because we all have free will. And the actions (or inaction) of others affects us. I think God uses those bad experiences to help us grow into more loving, compassionate people.

Just my thoughts. Others will have different, but equally important explanations. I grapple with this every day. I'm asked questions like this at work all the time. I believe part of our purpose is to think about these things. I'm not sure there is one right answer. My only role is to lead people towards their own answers.

Not trying to be disrespectful to ministers, but please explain the correlation between a baby who suffers because her mother was a drug addict and a baby who is ripped out of it's mother or fathers arms as they hang onto a tree trying to save themselves from a flood. What exactly did they do wrong? How does "free will" come into that scenario? Just wondering.

I don't think there necessarily is a correlation. I don't think the parents did anything wrong. But other people's decisions, good or bad, led to that baby's death. God did not cause the baby to die. I do not believe God wanted that infant to die. I believe God grieves when we hurt. I could list a hundred possible causes from bad urban planning to climate change to choosing not to evacuate. Most of the time, I can't come up with any cause. But I do not believe God causes suffering. And I don't believe in any evil being. I think we live in a world where we have choices. And that free will can lead to suffering.

Again, I want to stress that I don't have the answers. I became a minister because the questions are important to me. I'm just sharing my thoughts.

I believe you when you say you don't have the answers, but you nonetheless seem quite sure when you say certain things about God, like he grieves when we hurt and doesn't cause bad things to happen.

Do you think he can cause good things to happen? What does he do for us, besides grieve with us? What is the point of a God who grieves with us. or what is the point of praying to such a god, when the ultimate result might that he grieves when our prayers are not answered. Plenty of people can grieve with us and some can also offer practical help that could prevent the need to grieve -- e.g., a doctor or someone with a rescue boat in a flood.

NP. The minister said she/he believes these things to be the nature of God, seems certain only in her beliefs.
And the point is love. Grieving with someone is loving them, doctors and rescuers from your example ARE love.
I don't have any answers either, just my own experience. The only way I've known great grace and mercy and yes, love, is by going through tremendous suffering. When I am at the end of my own resourcefulness, when I am with those who are dying, listening to the stories of the homeless, hold hands of the grieving, and when I find I'm not alone in my own grief is when I see God. This is when connection with the divine is at its deepest for me, and that brings meaning to the suffering.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm kind of with you OP. It's hard to argue against a creator, but I can't fathom worshiping whoever allows babies to get cancer or be horribly abused, and then there's natural disasters, like Houston at the moment.

It boggles my mind to see someone on TV saying "We only survived because God was watching over us!" after being rescued, without addressing those who didn't survive, why wasn't God watching overly er them? Like the story I read today of the six month old baby who drowned when he was ripped out of his parents arms by flood waters while they were trying to stay alive in a tree! Why wasn't God watching over him? No, just you and your kids, right lady on TV? And by the way, who exactly caused the hurricane and the flood?

I'm sure there's a minister out there who has an explanation for all this, but the bottom line is nobody knows the answer.

I'm the PP Minister. I held an eight month old baby as she died not long ago. She was born to a drug addicted mother. All we could do was try to provide pain relief and hold her tightly when she had seizures. Her death was heartbreaking. It shook me to my core. She was with us in the inpatient unit for months. We all bonded with her. Her entire life was suffering. She smiled and cooed. But I know she was in pain even on the strong narcotics. How do you talk about that kind of death? How could I provide spiritual care to the nurses, doctors, social workers, etc who cared for her and loved her? You are correct - We don't have all the answers. But that baby's short life had meaning and purpose. Her mother's bad choices caused her death. But her life taught all those who knew her a lot about unconditional love, about compassion, grief, and letting go. She brought a lot of joy to a lot of people.

I don't think God ever causes bad things to happen. I do think he allows bad things to happen exactly because we all have free will. And the actions (or inaction) of others affects us. I think God uses those bad experiences to help us grow into more loving, compassionate people.

Just my thoughts. Others will have different, but equally important explanations. I grapple with this every day. I'm asked questions like this at work all the time. I believe part of our purpose is to think about these things. I'm not sure there is one right answer. My only role is to lead people towards their own answers.

Not trying to be disrespectful to ministers, but please explain the correlation between a baby who suffers because her mother was a drug addict and a baby who is ripped out of it's mother or fathers arms as they hang onto a tree trying to save themselves from a flood. What exactly did they do wrong? How does "free will" come into that scenario? Just wondering.

I don't think there necessarily is a correlation. I don't think the parents did anything wrong. But other people's decisions, good or bad, led to that baby's death. God did not cause the baby to die. I do not believe God wanted that infant to die. I believe God grieves when we hurt. I could list a hundred possible causes from bad urban planning to climate change to choosing not to evacuate. Most of the time, I can't come up with any cause. But I do not believe God causes suffering. And I don't believe in any evil being. I think we live in a world where we have choices. And that free will can lead to suffering.

Again, I want to stress that I don't have the answers. I became a minister because the questions are important to me. I'm just sharing my thoughts.

I believe you when you say you don't have the answers, but you nonetheless seem quite sure when you say certain things about God, like he grieves when we hurt and doesn't cause bad things to happen.

Do you think he can cause good things to happen? What does he do for us, besides grieve with us? What is the point of a God who grieves with us. or what is the point of praying to such a god, when the ultimate result might that he grieves when our prayers are not answered. Plenty of people can grieve with us and some can also offer practical help that could prevent the need to grieve -- e.g., a doctor or someone with a rescue boat in a flood.

NP. The minister said she/he believes these things to be the nature of God, seems certain only in her beliefs.
And the point is love. Grieving with someone is loving them, doctors and rescuers from your example ARE love.
I don't have any answers either, just my own experience. The only way I've known great grace and mercy and yes, love, is by going through tremendous suffering. When I am at the end of my own resourcefulness, when I am with those who are dying, listening to the stories of the homeless, hold hands of the grieving, and when I find I'm not alone in my own grief is when I see God. This is when connection with the divine is at its deepest for me, and that brings meaning to the suffering.

I appreciate your words and think I understand them.

People are different, and I would say that in the situation you describe, where you "see God," others may feel "at one" with the universe and see the goodness of humanity -- which is not always evident.

It doesn't mean either response is accurate regarding the existence or non-existence of God. To me it suggests that humans have different ways of feeling and expressing emotions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You sound very angry.

+1

I feel really sorry for you, OP. God doesn't promise we won't tested, only that we won't be overcome. I've met genocide survivors who have a healthier mindset than you.

Some people ARE overcome. Also, regarding the genocide survivors, maybe they think god favored them by not letting them be killed along with everyone else. Maybe they prayed to god to be spared and think their prayers were answered - and that other people either did not pray or did not have their prayers answered.

+1

[Anonymous]

I'm sure God is comforted that you've decided HE exists.

I say "he" because if God is so angry and wrathful, there's no possible way God could be female, right?