Hillbilly Elegy

[Anonymous]

I grew up a professional, liberal, upper middle class family in a suburb of a large city. My husband comes from a blue collar family in Kentucky. He's the first in his family to get a PhD (which is where we met), and the only one who doesn't currently live in the Kentucky/Tennessee area. There was definitely a bit of culture shock the first few times I visited my in laws. DH had some culture shock as well, as he has moved to a different socioeconomic class than the rest of his family. A similar situation happened to the scene where JD Vance describes going to a law firm recruiting dinner and being utterly overwhelmed by the number of forks present and then calling up his girlfriend for advice happened to my DH when we first started dating. We are older millennials. So in a sense, as a couple we are kind of similar to Vance and his wife in terms of our backgrounds, and like them we now live in the SF bay area.

DH grew up in the western part of Kentucky, which is has an economy that is based more on agriculture and manufacturing and is not dependent on coal mining. His mom's side of the family (and perhaps his dad side as well, I'm not sure) had a similar exodus from Appalachia described in the Hillbilly Elegy; they were originally from the hills in Tennessee and left for economic reasons. There were a lot of elements of that book that felt very familiar to me, especially when describing the "hillbilly" culture (the fierce loyalty, hot tempers, close knit communities, etc.)--it describes his mom and some of his uncles to a T. DH's family life was much more stable and less chaotic than Vance's, with no drug addicts or domestic violence, but he still has expressed a lot of similar feelings about a lack of cultural capital, awareness of educational opportunities, etc. All of this was a world that was totally foreign to me until I met my DH.

I thought the memoir was compelling at a narrative level, but I have met a number of people who move from the working class to the professional class who have expressed a similar feelings of alienation and and I wonder why it is that Vance in particular was given this platform between the memoir and becoming a talking head to represent the white working class in talk shows and such. I also wonder about his conservatism and what it's like to be a hardcore republican in the bay area. My DH who has a similar cultural background and is close in age to Vance has completely different politics, and a completely different perspective on what kinds of policies would be beneficial to white, rural working class areas. It's interesting to me that two people with such similar backgrounds and trajectories could arrive at such different perspectives on the world.

[Anonymous]

His timing has been impeccable and the book got great reviews from outlets like The Economist. You don't need to be a "hillbilly" to experience domestic violence or drug/alcohol problems. I certainly don't think he "represents" white, male alienation but he does so much better than Joe the Plumber did.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I"m from a small town in middle America that is awfully hillbilly. (though there are no hills around - I'd call them more country). I've had this on my to read list and have seen the guy on TV talking about the book and read a few reviews. What what I've read, it seems like your impression - it's an interesting story of one family, but doesn't necessarily translate well - is the general impression.

So not sure how much I will push to read it - maybe if it pops up at the library. The one thing I will say is that if you're not related or otherwise familiar with white people like this, you don't really get it. My personal experience living in DC surrounded by white liberal educated folks is that there is a huge disconnect from white, lower class, more poorly educated folks.

Perhaps you think there's s disconnect , but there's something you need to understand about white liberals —they keep and settle scores . For decades white liberals were demonized in this country by the very people cited in that book and their handlers of the Republican Party . Godless, immoral , welfare distributors , anti American , and so on and so forth.
Today the chickens have come home to roost, does it cross those people minds that the social programs that they virulently opposed because it was going to benefit those 'other people ' or because government is bad might have gone a long way in lessening their burden? Suffering? Pain? Furthermore , unlike their 'God fearing' white conservatives counterparts , liberals have known and cknowledged that those 'other people' have a unique history in this country and faced atrocities that even the poorest of the poor whites hasn't and still doesn't face till this day and as such public policy need to be cognizant of these historical factors and do whatever it takes so members of that community get a fair and legitimate shot at real EMANCIPATION

Long story short, white liberals today have no use for the kind of whites described in that book and rightfully so.

Not All white liberals feel that way. I certainly don't.

Yeah thanks Mr/Mrs obvious but perhaps the absence of 'some' gave you cover . Newsflash , white liberals don't need hillbillies to win the White House

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I"m from a small town in middle America that is awfully hillbilly. (though there are no hills around - I'd call them more country). I've had this on my to read list and have seen the guy on TV talking about the book and read a few reviews. What what I've read, it seems like your impression - it's an interesting story of one family, but doesn't necessarily translate well - is the general impression.

So not sure how much I will push to read it - maybe if it pops up at the library. The one thing I will say is that if you're not related or otherwise familiar with white people like this, you don't really get it. My personal experience living in DC surrounded by white liberal educated folks is that there is a huge disconnect from white, lower class, more poorly educated folks.

Perhaps you think there's s disconnect , but there's something you need to understand about white liberals —they keep and settle scores . For decades white liberals were demonized in this country by the very people cited in that book and their handlers of the Republican Party . Godless, immoral , welfare distributors , anti American , and so on and so forth.
Today the chickens have come home to roost, does it cross those people minds that the social programs that they virulently opposed because it was going to benefit those 'other people ' or because government is bad might have gone a long way in lessening their burden? Suffering? Pain? Furthermore , unlike their 'God fearing' white conservatives counterparts , liberals have known and cknowledged that those 'other people' have a unique history in this country and faced atrocities that even the poorest of the poor whites hasn't and still doesn't face till this day and as such public policy need to be cognizant of these historical factors and do whatever it takes so members of that community get a fair and legitimate shot at real EMANCIPATION

Long story short, white liberals today have no use for the kind of whites described in that book and rightfully so.

Not All white liberals feel that way. I certainly don't.

Yeah thanks Mr/Mrs obvious but perhaps the absence of 'some' gave you cover . Newsflash , white liberals don't need hillbillies to win the White House

You seem unnecessarily hostile. Can you remind me of when your were appointed spokesperson for white liberals? Because you don't sound like any white liberal that I know and I know a lot. I think it remains to be seen whether white liberals need hillbillies to win the White House, but it sure wouldn't hurt to have them. For decades they were the backbone of the Democratic Party. Regardless, there are priorities beyond winning the presidency and -- speaking for myself -- hillbillies are as much as a concern as any other working class group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I"m from a small town in middle America that is awfully hillbilly. (though there are no hills around - I'd call them more country). I've had this on my to read list and have seen the guy on TV talking about the book and read a few reviews. What what I've read, it seems like your impression - it's an interesting story of one family, but doesn't necessarily translate well - is the general impression.

So not sure how much I will push to read it - maybe if it pops up at the library. The one thing I will say is that if you're not related or otherwise familiar with white people like this, you don't really get it. My personal experience living in DC surrounded by white liberal educated folks is that there is a huge disconnect from white, lower class, more poorly educated folks.

Perhaps you think there's s disconnect , but there's something you need to understand about white liberals —they keep and settle scores . For decades white liberals were demonized in this country by the very people cited in that book and their handlers of the Republican Party . Godless, immoral , welfare distributors , anti American , and so on and so forth.
Today the chickens have come home to roost, does it cross those people minds that the social programs that they virulently opposed because it was going to benefit those 'other people ' or because government is bad might have gone a long way in lessening their burden? Suffering? Pain? Furthermore , unlike their 'God fearing' white conservatives counterparts , liberals have known and cknowledged that those 'other people' have a unique history in this country and faced atrocities that even the poorest of the poor whites hasn't and still doesn't face till this day and as such public policy need to be cognizant of these historical factors and do whatever it takes so members of that community get a fair and legitimate shot at real EMANCIPATION

Long story short, white liberals today have no use for the kind of whites described in that book and rightfully so.

NP and not white but all this ^^^^^^^^^ is why Trump is winning.

PP. ok lol.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I"m from a small town in middle America that is awfully hillbilly. (though there are no hills around - I'd call them more country). I've had this on my to read list and have seen the guy on TV talking about the book and read a few reviews. What what I've read, it seems like your impression - it's an interesting story of one family, but doesn't necessarily translate well - is the general impression.

So not sure how much I will push to read it - maybe if it pops up at the library. The one thing I will say is that if you're not related or otherwise familiar with white people like this, you don't really get it. My personal experience living in DC surrounded by white liberal educated folks is that there is a huge disconnect from white, lower class, more poorly educated folks.

Perhaps you think there's s disconnect , but there's something you need to understand about white liberals —they keep and settle scores . For decades white liberals were demonized in this country by the very people cited in that book and their handlers of the Republican Party . Godless, immoral , welfare distributors , anti American , and so on and so forth.
Today the chickens have come home to roost, does it cross those people minds that the social programs that they virulently opposed because it was going to benefit those 'other people ' or because government is bad might have gone a long way in lessening their burden? Suffering? Pain? Furthermore , unlike their 'God fearing' white conservatives counterparts , liberals have known and cknowledged that those 'other people' have a unique history in this country and faced atrocities that even the poorest of the poor whites hasn't and still doesn't face till this day and as such public policy need to be cognizant of these historical factors and do whatever it takes so members of that community get a fair and legitimate shot at real EMANCIPATION

Long story short, white liberals today have no use for the kind of whites described in that book and rightfully so.

Not All white liberals feel that way. I certainly don't.

Yep. I'm white liberal and grew up in smalltown, WV. While I'm not a hillbilly as described in that book, I know the people in that book. (Figuratively.) Good people, but they live tough lives- and that's all they know.. I love going home to WV. Salt of the earth, lrough around the edges, but good people.

I tried to read Costes& book, but couldn't get into it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I grew up a professional, liberal, upper middle class family in a suburb of a large city. My husband comes from a blue collar family in Kentucky. He's the first in his family to get a PhD (which is where we met), and the only one who doesn't currently live in the Kentucky/Tennessee area. There was definitely a bit of culture shock the first few times I visited my in laws. DH had some culture shock as well, as he has moved to a different socioeconomic class than the rest of his family. A similar situation happened to the scene where JD Vance describes going to a law firm recruiting dinner and being utterly overwhelmed by the number of forks present and then calling up his girlfriend for advice happened to my DH when we first started dating. We are older millennials. So in a sense, as a couple we are kind of similar to Vance and his wife in terms of our backgrounds, and like them we now live in the SF bay area.

DH grew up in the western part of Kentucky, which is has an economy that is based more on agriculture and manufacturing and is not dependent on coal mining. His mom's side of the family (and perhaps his dad side as well, I'm not sure) had a similar exodus from Appalachia described in the Hillbilly Elegy; they were originally from the hills in Tennessee and left for economic reasons. There were a lot of elements of that book that felt very familiar to me, especially when describing the "hillbilly" culture (the fierce loyalty, hot tempers, close knit communities, etc.)--it describes his mom and some of his uncles to a T. DH's family life was much more stable and less chaotic than Vance's, with no drug addicts or domestic violence, but he still has expressed a lot of similar feelings about a lack of cultural capital, awareness of educational opportunities, etc. All of this was a world that was totally foreign to me until I met my DH.

I thought the memoir was compelling at a narrative level, but I have met a number of people who move from the working class to the professional class who have expressed a similar feelings of alienation and and I wonder why it is that Vance in particular was given this platform between the memoir and becoming a talking head to represent the white working class in talk shows and such. I also wonder about his conservatism and what it's like to be a hardcore republican in the bay area. My DH who has a similar cultural background and is close in age to Vance has completely different politics, and a completely different perspective on what kinds of policies would be beneficial to white, rural working class areas. It's interesting to me that two people with such similar backgrounds and trajectories could arrive at such different perspectives on the world.

20:44 again and this sounds so similar to how my spouse and I related to one another initially. I'm also from western KY. What part is your husband from (if you don't want to get too specific, is it north, closer to Indiana or south, closer to TN)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I found it to be an intereting personal memoir, but didn't think it analyzed/explained the group as a whole which was what I was expecting.

I was underwhelmed by the thin analysis of the causes and factors that keep these families down. I also feel like there was something more fundamental in JD Vance's experiences that he withheld in the book. He still clings too much to some of the values and, frankly, myths of being a hillbilly but at the same time suggests that the scars from it are very deep which makes you wonder why he went back?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I found it to be an intereting personal memoir, but didn't think it analyzed/explained the group as a whole which was what I was expecting.

I was underwhelmed by the thin analysis of the causes and factors that keep these families down. I also feel like there was something more fundamental in JD Vance's experiences that he withheld in the book. He still clings too much to some of the values and, frankly, myths of being a hillbilly but at the same time suggests that the scars from it are very deep which makes you wonder why he went back?

I actually find your questions interesting, because my experience with family/others I know of this type is that they are reluctant to leave it. I think even if given the opportunity, there are cultural reasons for staying in it, but also still complaining. It's like a badge to go through it, stick with it, and raise your own kids that way (they are always the type to post memes: "I grew up not wearing a seatbelt, with lead paint, played in the country all day, babysat when I was 8...etc.)

[Anonymous]

^For example, my DH grew up in the Midwest, 1 of 4 kids. It was a suburb, so you could see elements of country and elements of upward/connected/high acheiving people, in the way he was raised. (I can't say country vs. city, because city there is known as poor/dangerous.)

The 4 kids are on a sliding scale of where they ended up. One sibling has a real country accent!! DH does not at all. (Dh's parents didn't grow up there so they don't have one.) another sibling none at all, and a mother sibling a little bit if an accent.

It's all about the culture, friends, goals you settle into.

So, one sibling has an accent, heavy tattoos, smokes, drinking is a major feature of the lifestyle, lives in a rambler, have non-marriage with "step kids," no retirement plan, and strongly identifies with a downhearted hillbilly culture. And DH and another sibling are in educated households, reading to kids at night, strong communication skills, can attend a $100/plate dinner (usually for work), and not bat an eye at the dress or manners required, read lots of books. Not 100% "elite" but can fit in better in the middle, upper middle class. We sometimes have a hard time being laid back enough to fit in with the hillbillies but it's possible.

For the accent sibling, it's some kind of pride, reluctance to leave, and a badge that keeps people there sometimes. YES it's the economy too. But I'm just saying other factors are friend and relationship choices, personal emphasis on education, and a desire to be in that culture or not.

[Anonymous]

Me again. I'm not saying this is all described in hillbilly elegy (which haven't read but have read other articles by the author in anticipation of the book).

But this is how it happens when you are on the edge of entering that culture. I think it's a choice, an effect of who you spend time with.

If sibling could get sucked into that, just imagine how hard it is to leave.

[Anonymous]

20:44 again and this sounds so similar to how my spouse and I related to one another initially. I'm also from western KY. What part is your husband from (if you don't want to get too specific, is it north, closer to Indiana or south, closer to TN)?

I don't want to go into too much detail because he's from a really tiny tiny town, but he's from the far Western side of the state in between southern Illinois and Tennessee (closest city is Paducah).

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:Has anyone read "Hillbilly Elegy" and interested in talking about it? I just finished the book and have very mixed feelings. It was an interesting memoir, but I don't feel like it lived up to its billing. I don't think that it shed a lot of light on the greater community of "hillbillies". While it was good at highlighting problems, I would have liked to have seen more analysis of the causes of those problems and ideas for solutions.

I'd be interested to hear thoughts about this book from those who are well-read in similar literature about the black community, such as Ta-Nehisi Coates' books. I think there could be some interesting similarities.

I haven't read the book, but I'd be interested in talking about it based on the interview with JD Vance that I did read. http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/trump-us-politics-poor-whites/

Just a cursory guess, but I think the core of the problem is a culture that's been socially and politically groomed over generations to not complain or ask for anything in return for providing low-cost labor in very grueling and dangerous occupations. Steel and coal industries leave their labor force with lifelong health problems in the best of conditions and high risk of terrifying death in the best. How do you keep people coming back to work when the empirically bad effects are all around them?

Well, pride helps. Pride that you're not dependent (though you are); pride that you're not minority and/or immigrant; pride in roots and tradition; pride in a loosely defined freedom and independence to live life by your own terms. Pride in being exactly who you are, where you are, because there's little chance those things can be changed.

Again, just making a quick guess and it's based on Vance's first answer in that interview.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:Has anyone read "Hillbilly Elegy" and interested in talking about it? I just finished the book and have very mixed feelings. It was an interesting memoir, but I don't feel like it lived up to its billing. I don't think that it shed a lot of light on the greater community of "hillbillies". While it was good at highlighting problems, I would have liked to have seen more analysis of the causes of those problems and ideas for solutions.

I'd be interested to hear thoughts about this book from those who are well-read in similar literature about the black community, such as Ta-Nehisi Coates' books. I think there could be some interesting similarities.

I haven't read the book, but I'd be interested in talking about it based on the interview with JD Vance that I did read. http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/trump-us-politics-poor-whites/

Just a cursory guess, but I think the core of the problem is a culture that's been socially and politically groomed over generations to not complain or ask for anything in return for providing low-cost labor in very grueling and dangerous occupations. Steel and coal industries leave their labor force with lifelong health problems in the best of conditions and high risk of terrifying death in the best. How do you keep people coming back to work when the empirically bad effects are all around them?

Well, pride helps. Pride that you're not dependent (though you are); pride that you're not minority and/or immigrant; pride in roots and tradition; pride in a loosely defined freedom and independence to live life by your own terms. Pride in being exactly who you are, where you are, because there's little chance those things can be changed.

Again, just making a quick guess and it's based on Vance's first answer in that interview.

I don't know if Vance had the best press agent in the history of press agents, people who reviewed his book and interviewed him didn't actually read it, or those people have never read any other book. But, I strongly disagree with this part of the introduction to that interview:

"You cannot understand what’s happening now without first reading J.D. Vance. His book does for poor white people what Ta-Nehisi Coates’s book did for poor black people: give them voice and presence in the public square."

My feeling was that this is exactly what the book failed to do and other posts in this thread seem to agree with me. I think, for instance, that Jim Webb's book "Born Fighting" did a much better job of this.

Your idea that they were "socially and politically groomed" is interesting. Both Vance and Webb stress how much this group -- "hillbillies" to Vance, "Scots-Irish" to Webb -- places tremendous value on independence. Failing to integrate and adapt to change as other groups did, left them with few options. So, it may be less that they were groomed for coal and steel than that those were their only choices. Or, a combination of the two.

But, you hit on the biggest disappointment I had with the book. Vance describes the things he experienced and suggest that those experiences are widely shared among that community, but he doesn't do much to explain what factors led to the community having those experiences. It's almost simplistic such as: they were poor, families argued and fought a lot, people got divorced, children weren't supported, they took drugs, rinse and repeat (except for a few like Vance who broke the cycle). It seems to me that there is a lot more to it than that.

Then, there seems to be things that Vance avoids discussing except in cursory fashion. His family was attracted to Middletown due to jobs in the steel factory. The American steel industry was nearly wiped out as a result of international competition. Vance discusses how the company was bought by a Japanese company and how Middletown suffered a tremendous economic downturn but he doesn't do much to connect these dots. I suspect that because Vance politically is very tied to neocons who value globalization above almost all else, he is reluctant to dwell much on the downside of globalization. As is evident in the interview to which you linked, he doesn't like the idea that "things have been done to" hillbillies and they are nothing but helpless pawns. But, I think that like it or not, if their jobs disappeared because of decisions made in Washington, DC or Tokyo, there is no escaping the fact that there is a lot of truth in that.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:Has anyone read "Hillbilly Elegy" and interested in talking about it? I just finished the book and have very mixed feelings. It was an interesting memoir, but I don't feel like it lived up to its billing. I don't think that it shed a lot of light on the greater community of "hillbillies". While it was good at highlighting problems, I would have liked to have seen more analysis of the causes of those problems and ideas for solutions.

I'd be interested to hear thoughts about this book from those who are well-read in similar literature about the black community, such as Ta-Nehisi Coates' books. I think there could be some interesting similarities.

I haven't read the book, but I'd be interested in talking about it based on the interview with JD Vance that I did read. http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/trump-us-politics-poor-whites/

Just a cursory guess, but I think the core of the problem is a culture that's been socially and politically groomed over generations to not complain or ask for anything in return for providing low-cost labor in very grueling and dangerous occupations. Steel and coal industries leave their labor force with lifelong health problems in the best of conditions and high risk of terrifying death in the best. How do you keep people coming back to work when the empirically bad effects are all around them?

Well, pride helps. Pride that you're not dependent (though you are); pride that you're not minority and/or immigrant; pride in roots and tradition; pride in a loosely defined freedom and independence to live life by your own terms. Pride in being exactly who you are, where you are, because there's little chance those things can be changed.

Again, just making a quick guess and it's based on Vance's first answer in that interview.

I don't know if Vance had the best press agent in the history of press agents, people who reviewed his book and interviewed him didn't actually read it, or those people have never read any other book. But, I strongly disagree with this part of the introduction to that interview:

"You cannot understand what’s happening now without first reading J.D. Vance. His book does for poor white people what Ta-Nehisi Coates’s book did for poor black people: give them voice and presence in the public square."

My feeling was that this is exactly what the book failed to do and other posts in this thread seem to agree with me. I think, for instance, that Jim Webb's book "Born Fighting" did a much better job of this.

Your idea that they were "socially and politically groomed" is interesting. Both Vance and Webb stress how much this group -- "hillbillies" to Vance, "Scots-Irish" to Webb -- places tremendous value on independence. Failing to integrate and adapt to change as other groups did, left them with few options. So, it may be less that they were groomed for coal and steel than that those were their only choices. Or, a combination of the two.

But, you hit on the biggest disappointment I had with the book. Vance describes the things he experienced and suggest that those experiences are widely shared among that community, but he doesn't do much to explain what factors led to the community having those experiences. It's almost simplistic such as: they were poor, families argued and fought a lot, people got divorced, children weren't supported, they took drugs, rinse and repeat (except for a few like Vance who broke the cycle). It seems to me that there is a lot more to it than that.

Then, there seems to be things that Vance avoids discussing except in cursory fashion. His family was attracted to Middletown due to jobs in the steel factory. The American steel industry was nearly wiped out as a result of international competition. Vance discusses how the company was bought by a Japanese company and how Middletown suffered a tremendous economic downturn but he doesn't do much to connect these dots. I suspect that because Vance politically is very tied to neocons who value globalization above almost all else, he is reluctant to dwell much on the downside of globalization. As is evident in the interview to which you linked, he doesn't like the idea that "things have been done to" hillbillies and they are nothing but helpless pawns. But, I think that like it or not, if their jobs disappeared because of decisions made in Washington, DC or Tokyo, there is no escaping the fact that there is a lot of truth in that.

Wow. I grew up about 20 minutes' drive from Middletown - I didn't know that was his upbringing as well. It's about halfway between Dayton and Cincinnati, two Ohio cities that have suffered the effects of globalization but have still come out exceptionally well compared to others in the rust belt. There are closed down factories, but also crops of newly built McMansions for the workforce flocking to academia, healthcare, corporate regional and HQ offices, etc. Some are struggling, but most in the area are doing quite well.

I'm AA, my parents are from Texas and settled in Ohio when my dad started working in the 60s as an engineer at the air force base there. So of course, my experience is completely different from the hillbilly culture that is definitely settled in the area.

But I think there's something to what he says about no one paying attention to the suffering going on those communities. Because it's true. I work for HHS, at an agency that's about getting health care to underserved communities, and he's absolutely right that rural america is waaaaay down on the priority list, even while the problems there can't be called anything but acute, dire, crisis and all other synonyms you can think of. One-fifth of Americans live in rural areas and the majority live in suburbs but it boggles me the way people still refer to "inner cities" as the crux of social and economic problems. Maybe what needs to happen is just new blood, new ideas, new mindset from people who are able to get out and get perspective but still want to return to their roots to solve problems.