Separation & child abuse- how to address?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would be careful about calling police. Not that it is wrong but police coming to the house at a time when emotions are running high and accusations of child abuse are being made can actually be very traumatizing for young children. It can lead to kids having fears, panic attacks etc that if mommy daddy or the child themselves does anything wrong the police might come and take them away. They have a hard time differentiating between degrees of 'bad behavior'. As in the police took daddy away because he hit me, if I hit younger brother they might come and take me away. Or that because they did something wrong and that is why mommy/daddy were mad at them that they are responsible for what happens.

Different than filing a report after the fact.

Again, not saying it is wrong and in some situations might be the right thing but not necessarily in the best interest of the kids to put them through that solely in the hopes it will bolster your case in court.

You don't think dad wrapping his hands around his son's neck is traumatizing? Maybe you've never been abused, but I can assure you it's pretty fucking awful. The kid needs to know someone is willing to help him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for the supportive comments. It's a really crappy situation.

CPS (Arlington) won't take the case because they said that the only situation where my kid was in imminent danger was when my husband put his hands around son's neck. Because it was over a year ago they told my son's therapist (she's the one who called CPS) the other things did not warrant an investigation. It's not spanking at all. It's a matter of my husband being about to blow up and then hitting my son. As far as my definition of abuse- yeah, I think it's abusive to hit your kid, but if CPS doesn't do something then I have little support to go on. It seems terrible though that I need to wait until something worse happens to my son.

My son is already in talk/play therapy and it's something they've talked about. It's so confusing for a kid to love their parent, but also have them hit them.

Excellent point- I don't know that he'll want overnights with the kids.

You are in a terrible situation. The judge will hold it against you that you don't want your kids to be with their father overnight, even though the father sounds horrible to a normal person. I'm curious -- why did it take the therapist a year after your DH put his hands around the child's neck to call CPS?

[Anonymous]

OP, I'm in a situation where for different reasons I am seeking a limited role for my STBX. You know your H better than anyone - how is he going to take this? What can you do to make it more palatable?

I can't believe CPS didn't even open a case when a therapist reported abuse. That's kind of unbelievable to me. It sucks that they have said it's not concerning. It makes your goal harder to get but not impossible.

Does your H really fly off the handle? Have you ever videotaped or recorded him losing it? Ask your attorney before you do it but having objective evidence might help. As a spouse in a prospective custody battle you have zero credibility when it comes to anything like this. Any thing you say is likely to be construed as part of the custody case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would be careful about calling police. Not that it is wrong but police coming to the house at a time when emotions are running high and accusations of child abuse are being made can actually be very traumatizing for young children. It can lead to kids having fears, panic attacks etc that if mommy daddy or the child themselves does anything wrong the police might come and take them away. They have a hard time differentiating between degrees of 'bad behavior'. As in the police took daddy away because he hit me, if I hit younger brother they might come and take me away. Or that because they did something wrong and that is why mommy/daddy were mad at them that they are responsible for what happens.

Different than filing a report after the fact.

Again, not saying it is wrong and in some situations might be the right thing but not necessarily in the best interest of the kids to put them through that solely in the hopes it will bolster your case in court.

You don't think dad wrapping his hands around his son's neck is traumatizing? Maybe you've never been abused, but I can assure you it's pretty fucking awful. The kid needs to know someone is willing to help him.

I have no idea what wrapping his hands around his neck means. Was he explaining to his son the universal sign for choking, did he have his hands on his collarbones in a non violent way? CPS would definitely investigate if dad choked/strangled or threatened to choke/strangle the child so again, as I wasn't there, I don't know exactly what happened. However it was described didn't raise a flag for CPS. If I walked in to my husband strangling my child, I would be on the phone to 9-1-1 instantly. In this case, it wasn't deemed an emergency and later a therapist called CPS. So as I said, situation specific. However people were advocating that Op call the police any time any incident happens. Given CPS has deemed these incidents to not be abusive and to not warrant investigation and OP feels safe leaving her kids with her husband, neither the police or the judge will be happy with being called as a way of trying to build a case. That can be far more traumatizing to a child. If there is an incident where the father harms or threatens to harm the child, then 9-1-1 should be called to ensure the police comes to investigate the father and the ambulance comes to assess the child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would be careful about calling police. Not that it is wrong but police coming to the house at a time when emotions are running high and accusations of child abuse are being made can actually be very traumatizing for young children. It can lead to kids having fears, panic attacks etc that if mommy daddy or the child themselves does anything wrong the police might come and take them away. They have a hard time differentiating between degrees of 'bad behavior'. As in the police took daddy away because he hit me, if I hit younger brother they might come and take me away. Or that because they did something wrong and that is why mommy/daddy were mad at them that they are responsible for what happens.

Different than filing a report after the fact.

Again, not saying it is wrong and in some situations might be the right thing but not necessarily in the best interest of the kids to put them through that solely in the hopes it will bolster your case in court.

You don't think dad wrapping his hands around his son's neck is traumatizing? Maybe you've never been abused, but I can assure you it's pretty fucking awful. The kid needs to know someone is willing to help him.

I have no idea what wrapping his hands around his neck means. Was he explaining to his son the universal sign for choking, did he have his hands on his collarbones in a non violent way? CPS would definitely investigate if dad choked/strangled or threatened to choke/strangle the child so again, as I wasn't there, I don't know exactly what happened. However it was described didn't raise a flag for CPS. If I walked in to my husband strangling my child, I would be on the phone to 9-1-1 instantly. In this case, it wasn't deemed an emergency and later a therapist called CPS. So as I said, situation specific. However people were advocating that Op call the police any time any incident happens. Given CPS has deemed these incidents to not be abusive and to not warrant investigation and OP feels safe leaving her kids with her husband, neither the police or the judge will be happy with being called as a way of trying to build a case. That can be far more traumatizing to a child. If there is an incident where the father harms or threatens to harm the child, then 9-1-1 should be called to ensure the police comes to investigate the father and the ambulance comes to assess the child.

OP said CPS said it WAS concerning, but that the boy was not in danger now because it happened over a year ago. Read the post maybe before you go defending someone who put their hands around a small child's throat for god's sake. I can't imagine someone doing that once and being normal on the inside, even if it was a year ago. Good luck OP.

[Anonymous]

Don't know if you can go to a higher up person at CPS. Unfortunately, I've seen cases on the news where CPS was supposed to protect a child and the child ended up dead/missing. Maybe your lawyer could help you craft a letter that will get their attention so they look into this case. (Light a fire under their asses, so to speak.)

When school is in session, have your children report ANY abuse to a teacher or counselor. They are mandated reporters. IF your child is SCARED of his parent, and he tells the guidance counselor or teacher, they have to look into it. Depending on the guidance counselor, they may or may not call CPS. It all depends on what the child says.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Take what I say with a grain of salt. I would be very cautious in how you present your separation agreement. Even the most level headed spouses can get vindictive and angry during a separation and divorce. Usually, if they are angry they will try to hurt you by controlling access to the kids or money. In your case, you spouse will quickly realize that your greatest fear is him spending time alone with the kids overnight.

When I went through this, my therapist was a child advocate in many, many court trials for the county. She said that unless your spouse has a conviction for child abuse related problems, the court will grant him 50/50 custody in most cases. She did testify at trials where she advocated that in the child's best interest one or the other parent should have limited access. It sounds like your situation would be very tough to prove. Your spouse is not the same type of parent that you are (and you consider him abusive), but if CPS doesn't agree -- you may have a hard time getting the courts to limit your DH's access.

I would present the agreement in such a way that you offer him the choice of as much access as he would like during the day. I'd present the choice for you to keep them overnight as a matter of stability and continuity for the kids (don't tell DH you don't trust him). Most guys demand 50/50 access to begin with and then quickly drop off their commitment to see the kids as they realize how much work it is to juggle their schedules.

If you really want control over your kids and how they spend their time, don't get a divorce. I know that sounds sanctimonious -- but it is the truth. Divorce gives you a lot less control of decisions regarding your kids than you had when you were married. While it sounds crazy, if you are really concerned about your kids -- you may want to stay married, as sucky as that would be for you.

I have a non-abusive mentally ill ex. I was afraid to leave my kids with him overnight due to negligence/irresponsibility and poor judgment. Similar to your situation, the courts would not take into account the mental illness or "close calls" with the kids. I found that over time, my ex chose to leave the kids with me. It was very overwhelming for him to have them. As the PP suggested, I presented keeping the kids overnight as a matter of convenience for him. I allowed him to come over several times a week, with me in the house, to have dinner with us and participate in bed/bath. When he came, I was not hostile, I tried to give him space with the kids and step back as much as possible. Soon, he would also ask me to come with him sometimes on outings (easier for him). Since we were never married, we didn't have to go thru a formal divorce and written separation agreement. It's been a little bit of a gamble for me not to get a written custody agreement in the beginning, but long term it has worked out really well for the kids. They have a stable place, living with me full-time, and they see their Dad 3-4 times a week. He moved out, at my request, and never filed for custody. Now, if he tried to challenge the situation legally (or if I had to due to an deterioration in his illness), I believe I would have very good grounds for full custody. If I had presented this option to him at the start as an necessary arrangement due to his mental illness (or abuse, in your case), he would have rejected it and likely fought.

You really need to think carefully about the notion of staying vs. leaving. On the one hand, if you stay, as a PP says, you may have more control of your child's environment, but one thing you will not be able to change is his abusiveness which will happen whether you are there or not, it sounds like. On the other hand, if you divorce, you potentially risk losing control of the kids 50% of the time but can establish a 100% healthy environment for them th other 50% of the time. I choose the latter. In the end, I believe it was the best choice for all of us.

One thing that helped my situation is that my ex is not a high-conflict oriented person (either ill or stable). When given an easy way out, he usually takes it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would be careful about calling police. Not that it is wrong but police coming to the house at a time when emotions are running high and accusations of child abuse are being made can actually be very traumatizing for young children. It can lead to kids having fears, panic attacks etc that if mommy daddy or the child themselves does anything wrong the police might come and take them away. They have a hard time differentiating between degrees of 'bad behavior'. As in the police took daddy away because he hit me, if I hit younger brother they might come and take me away. Or that because they did something wrong and that is why mommy/daddy were mad at them that they are responsible for what happens.

Different than filing a report after the fact.

Again, not saying it is wrong and in some situations might be the right thing but not necessarily in the best interest of the kids to put them through that solely in the hopes it will bolster your case in court.

You don't think dad wrapping his hands around his son's neck is traumatizing? Maybe you've never been abused, but I can assure you it's pretty fucking awful. The kid needs to know someone is willing to help him.

I have no idea what wrapping his hands around his neck means. Was he explaining to his son the universal sign for choking, did he have his hands on his collarbones in a non violent way? CPS would definitely investigate if dad choked/strangled or threatened to choke/strangle the child so again, as I wasn't there, I don't know exactly what happened. However it was described didn't raise a flag for CPS. If I walked in to my husband strangling my child, I would be on the phone to 9-1-1 instantly. In this case, it wasn't deemed an emergency and later a therapist called CPS. So as I said, situation specific. However people were advocating that Op call the police any time any incident happens. Given CPS has deemed these incidents to not be abusive and to not warrant investigation and OP feels safe leaving her kids with her husband, neither the police or the judge will be happy with being called as a way of trying to build a case. That can be far more traumatizing to a child. If there is an incident where the father harms or threatens to harm the child, then 9-1-1 should be called to ensure the police comes to investigate the father and the ambulance comes to assess the child.

OP said CPS said it WAS concerning, but that the boy was not in danger now because it happened over a year ago. Read the post maybe before you go defending someone who put their hands around a small child's throat for god's sake. I can't imagine someone doing that once and being normal on the inside, even if it was a year ago. Good luck OP.

I am not defending him, I am just being factual rather than emotional. I have worked in the system and there are many perspectives presented in court, as there should be. I don't know if OP was present during that incident or not. Her husband may be violent and dangerous or there may be very, very different perspectives that portray him and the incidents in a different light than a violent, dangerous man. Courts will absolutely look at evidence from all parties.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even without a CPS investigation, the judge should be able to consider the incidents if there is some record of it.

Call the police next time it happens.

I think the bigger issue is that CPS has investigated and deemed the allegations to be unsubstantiated (by their definition). Not sure a judge will overrule CPS as often CPS is considered a neutral party versus what a father or mother says the other parent does in a custody battle (as often the truth isn't clear).

That's not what OP said- she said CPS wouldn't take it which means they did NOT investigate. Huge difference: this was a screen out where no ruling is made on whether there was abuse or not. Only after an actual investigation do they say "yes we found abuse/neglect" or "no finding of abuse or neglect".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I am not defending him, I am just being factual rather than emotional. I have worked in the system and there are many perspectives presented in court, as there should be. I don't know if OP was present during that incident or not. Her husband may be violent and dangerous or there may be very, very different perspectives that portray him and the incidents in a different light than a violent, dangerous man. Courts will absolutely look at evidence from all parties.

If you've worked in the system, you'd understand the immediate need for evidence gathering, and the laws that say family abuse can be considered by a judge if it's reported in a reasonable amount of time. CPS can't investigate a year old battery incident. It's not that it wasn't dangerous for the children.

Hauling dad's ass off to jail might be the wake up call he needs, and the court ordered treatment would be beneficial too. The child absolutely needs to know that this is not acceptable and that someone will protect him and take his concerns seriously. Cops can be assholes, but it's clear OP can't handle this situation on her own.

[Anonymous]

whatever happens: get your older child a cell phone with instructions how and when to use it to call you or call 911. reinforce that he/she can use it at any time, for any reason, if s/he feels scared about something. I would absolutely do this, even if there are no overnights. It also allows you to contact your kids while they are in his custody.

sorry about this horrendous situation. I can't imagine how you must feel.