Have we gone too far with TAG in PGCPS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But that is the luck of the lottery. The lack of spaces could be why PGCPS designated more TAG-only schools. I don't think that certain TAG kids deserve more than other TAG kids. There are too many variables.

I don't see it is certain kids "deserving more" than other kids; rather that ALL children deserve to be challenged and educated appropriately. I also believe that all children deserve to have a peer group of children with similar intellectual characteristics and abilities. If that can happen in a neighborhood school, so much the better. We have a great neighborhood school, but highly gifted children are not challenged there in the way that they are at the TAG center school -- although I think the center school certainly has room for improvement.

Why do I want my kids challenged? I don't want them to grow up thinking that learning is easy and will always come naturally to them. I want them to learn from an early age how to work hard to master things that are difficult! I want them to be confronted with interesting, new ideas every day, and not come home from school thinking that there is nothing in school to learn. I want them to be challenged with new ideas, and with the knowledge that they have to work hard, be organized, that they can't just coast through school. I also want them to be interested in going to school. I know that's what most parents want for their kids.

I want to bring this up and say just because children test into the same percentile on a standardized exam does not mean that this will be true. You can be a certified genius but still not have the same intellectual characteristics and abilities.

Of course any test or testing process will have its limitations.

But still -- even if someone tests as a "certifiable genius" chances are better that they will have similar intellectual characteristics and abilities, if they have the opportunity to be grouped with other students who test similarly. It is not a guarantee, of course, but their chances are probably much higher than if they remained in their heterogenous, neighborhood school.

This is one reason why programs like CTY and Duke's TIP exist -- as a way to gather together in one peer group, children and teens who are highly gifted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If my children are in TAG, and there are students who are 80th percentiloe also in TAG, I am trying to figure out why I should care and how that would take away from my children's experience. I cannot justify caring about that.

I do care, especially because there isn't enough space for all the TAG identified children who want to go to Center Schools, to go there, so we have a lottery system where kids who would be in the 99.9th percentile in terms of testing (kids who are most in need of finding a cohort or peer group) are in the coprehensive school because they didn't get a spot in the lottery; and kids at 80th %ile, whose needs could be more easily met at the neighborhood school with a pull out program or TAG in the Regular classroom, are in the Center school.

It just doesn't seem to make much sense.

In PG county schools, we have all 4 models of TAG services:

1) pull out services for TAG identified kids in neighborhood schools
2) TAG in the regular classroom in neighborhood schools (cluster TAG identified kids in one class)
3) TAG in center school-- one class is TAG, one class is "comprehensive"
4) TAG only center -- all classes are TAG

but we make no effort to match students' instructional need with the instructional model.

You seem to be one of those nutters who do better in MoCo than PG.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But that is the luck of the lottery. The lack of spaces could be why PGCPS designated more TAG-only schools. I don't think that certain TAG kids deserve more than other TAG kids. There are too many variables.

I don't see it is certain kids "deserving more" than other kids; rather that ALL children deserve to be challenged and educated appropriately. I also believe that all children deserve to have a peer group of children with similar intellectual characteristics and abilities. If that can happen in a neighborhood school, so much the better. We have a great neighborhood school, but highly gifted children are not challenged there in the way that they are at the TAG center school -- although I think the center school certainly has room for improvement.

Why do I want my kids challenged? I don't want them to grow up thinking that learning is easy and will always come naturally to them. I want them to learn from an early age how to work hard to master things that are difficult! I want them to be confronted with interesting, new ideas every day, and not come home from school thinking that there is nothing in school to learn. I want them to be challenged with new ideas, and with the knowledge that they have to work hard, be organized, that they can't just coast through school. I also want them to be interested in going to school. I know that's what most parents want for their kids.

Have you been to one of the TAG schools or had your children there?

They aren't being challenged they are being forced to spend hours upon hours of memorizing things and then spitting it out in writing as well as diagrams. The kids are bussed in and can easily spend 2 hours a day on the bus and they are then given 3-4 hours of homework every night and that doesn't include the reading logs or the biweekly book reports that accompany them. Really, what kind of life is that for an elementary school kid? That leaves no time for riding bikes, climbing trees, or being a kid.

These kids aren't doing art more often they are just given more languages to learn and more work to do. While completing it all can indeed be challenging it is not exactly the way children should be challenged. They should be taught to question why things are and not just repeat what they've been told why they are. If that makes sense.

I want to bring this up and say just because children test into the same percentile on a standardized exam does not mean that this will be true. You can be a certified genius but still not have the same intellectual characteristics and abilities.

Of course any test or testing process will have its limitations.

But still -- even if someone tests as a "certifiable genius" chances are better that they will have similar intellectual characteristics and abilities, if they have the opportunity to be grouped with other students who test similarly. It is not a guarantee, of course, but their chances are probably much higher than if they remained in their heterogenous, neighborhood school.

This is one reason why programs like CTY and Duke's TIP exist -- as a way to gather together in one peer group, children and teens who are highly gifted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Have you been to one of the TAG schools or had your children there?

They aren't being challenged they are being forced to spend hours upon hours of memorizing things and then spitting it out in writing as well as diagrams. The kids are bussed in and can easily spend 2 hours a day on the bus and they are then given 3-4 hours of homework every night and that doesn't include the reading logs or the biweekly book reports that accompany them. Really, what kind of life is that for an elementary school kid? That leaves no time for riding bikes, climbing trees, or being a kid.

These kids aren't doing art more often they are just given more languages to learn and more work to do. While completing it all can indeed be challenging it is not exactly the way children should be challenged. They should be taught to question why things are and not just repeat what they've been told why they are. If that makes sense.

Yes, both my children attend a TAG school and their experience has not been as you describe! Which school has 3-4 hours per night?? Is it Glenarden Woods? I have read about complaints about that school.

However, if your children are in a school requiring hours of memorization and spitting things out, and not being asked to think creatively -- that doesn't mean TAG schools in our county have gone too far... it just means they could be greatly improved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If my children are in TAG, and there are students who are 80th percentiloe also in TAG, I am trying to figure out why I should care and how that would take away from my children's experience. I cannot justify caring about that.

I do care, especially because there isn't enough space for all the TAG identified children who want to go to Center Schools, to go there, so we have a lottery system where kids who would be in the 99.9th percentile in terms of testing (kids who are most in need of finding a cohort or peer group) are in the coprehensive school because they didn't get a spot in the lottery; and kids at 80th %ile, whose needs could be more easily met at the neighborhood school with a pull out program or TAG in the Regular classroom, are in the Center school.

It just doesn't seem to make much sense.

In PG county schools, we have all 4 models of TAG services:

1) pull out services for TAG identified kids in neighborhood schools
2) TAG in the regular classroom in neighborhood schools (cluster TAG identified kids in one class)
3) TAG in center school-- one class is TAG, one class is "comprehensive"
4) TAG only center -- all classes are TAG

but we make no effort to match students' instructional need with the instructional model.

You seem to be one of those nutters who do better in MoCo than PG.

Why are you calling me a nut? (Nutter?) For wanting to have educational models that more closely meet students' instructional needs? What is wrong with that as a goal?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Have you been to one of the TAG schools or had your children there?

They aren't being challenged they are being forced to spend hours upon hours of memorizing things and then spitting it out in writing as well as diagrams. The kids are bussed in and can easily spend 2 hours a day on the bus and they are then given 3-4 hours of homework every night and that doesn't include the reading logs or the biweekly book reports that accompany them. Really, what kind of life is that for an elementary school kid? That leaves no time for riding bikes, climbing trees, or being a kid.

These kids aren't doing art more often they are just given more languages to learn and more work to do. While completing it all can indeed be challenging it is not exactly the way children should be challenged. They should be taught to question why things are and not just repeat what they've been told why they are. If that makes sense.

Yes, both my children attend a TAG school and their experience has not been as you describe! Which school has 3-4 hours per night?? Is it Glenarden Woods? I have read about complaints about that school.

However, if your children are in a school requiring hours of memorization and spitting things out, and not being asked to think creatively -- that doesn't mean TAG schools in our county have gone too far... it just means they could be greatly improved.

Bingo! Never again....Never again.

GWES is supposedly the gold standard for TAG schools and where all of them wish to be. Terrible, terrible, terrible standard and I believe common core is only going to make it worse. I pulled both of my children and four friends pulled theirs out too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:


I don't see it is certain kids "deserving more" than other kids; rather that ALL children deserve to be challenged and educated appropriately. I also believe that all children deserve to have a peer group of children with similar intellectual characteristics and abilities. If that can happen in a neighborhood school, so much the better. We have a great neighborhood school, but highly gifted children are not challenged there in the way that they are at the TAG center school -- although I think the center school certainly has room for improvement.

Why do I want my kids challenged? I don't want them to grow up thinking that learning is easy and will always come naturally to them. I want them to learn from an early age how to work hard to master things that are difficult! I want them to be confronted with interesting, new ideas every day, and not come home from school thinking that there is nothing in school to learn. I want them to be challenged with new ideas, and with the knowledge that they have to work hard, be organized, that they can't just coast through school. I also want them to be interested in going to school. I know that's what most parents want for their kids.

By your logic then, all kids with below average intellectual abilities only deserve to be educated in a group of kids with below average intellectual abilities? When there is such a strong correlation between ability and income and income is a proxy for race, what you are proposing would increase segregation in PGCPS and not improve the historical patterns. Also note that such early tracking is part of the problem in the US and almost all educational research points to it being a huge negative on the system.

And again, highly gifted children who score in the 80th percentile are not highly gifted, bright and hard working, yes, but not highly gifted. Calling them that actually does a disservice to those kids because it negates the effect of effort on their achievement.

[Anonymous]

A bit of a tangent here, but my child attended GWES for just one year (5th grade), and I think it depends on the kid, the grade, and the teacher. We found it a more positive experience than one particular teacher at Oakcrest, which is where he was before the boundaries were reshuffled. His experience at GWES as a fifth grader was a good one, and middle school has been an entirely different (though still positive) ball game.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If they wait until 3rd or 4th grade to test for TAG few if any middle class children will go to PGCPS. They should take only children in the. 90th plus percentile.

+1 This is the real issue that needs to be mentioned. Parents wouldn't hang on in bad neighborhood schools until fourth or fifth. As it stands, a lot of parents who don't get into the TAG centers end up going private.

That is the thing PG needs to address.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:


I don't see it is certain kids "deserving more" than other kids; rather that ALL children deserve to be challenged and educated appropriately. I also believe that all children deserve to have a peer group of children with similar intellectual characteristics and abilities. If that can happen in a neighborhood school, so much the better. We have a great neighborhood school, but highly gifted children are not challenged there in the way that they are at the TAG center school -- although I think the center school certainly has room for improvement.

Why do I want my kids challenged? I don't want them to grow up thinking that learning is easy and will always come naturally to them. I want them to learn from an early age how to work hard to master things that are difficult! I want them to be confronted with interesting, new ideas every day, and not come home from school thinking that there is nothing in school to learn. I want them to be challenged with new ideas, and with the knowledge that they have to work hard, be organized, that they can't just coast through school. I also want them to be interested in going to school. I know that's what most parents want for their kids.

By your logic then, all kids with below average intellectual abilities only deserve to be educated in a group of kids with below average intellectual abilities? When there is such a strong correlation between ability and income and income is a proxy for race, what you are proposing would increase segregation in PGCPS and not improve the historical patterns. Also note that such early tracking is part of the problem in the US and almost all educational research points to it being a huge negative on the system.

And again, highly gifted children who score in the 80th percentile are not highly gifted, bright and hard working, yes, but not highly gifted. Calling them that actually does a disservice to those kids because it negates the effect of effort on their achievement.

Segregation in PG County schools? Are you not familiar with the demographics in PG? Segregation isn't an issue, because the county itself is majority AA. In fact, a lot of middle to upper middle class AA families in PG send their kids to private school! In PG, the issue isn't race.

Segregation is an issue in Maryland, but it is not an issue in PG. In Maryland, the segregation happens by county.

Now, the issue in PG might be SES segregation -- i.e. the middle class kids of all races being separated out from the lower class kids. But as it stands now, segregation is not an issue in PG County Schools. I don't think there are ANY schools (even gifted TAG schools) that are still not at least 50 percent AA.

In the past, yes, it was an issue, but there was significant white flight from PG County. So of all of the problems PG County schools have, racial segregation is not one of them. Class segregation, perhaps, but not racial segregation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

By your logic then, all kids with below average intellectual abilities only deserve to be educated in a group of kids with below average intellectual abilities?

KIds with below average intellectual abilities, i.e. your so-called "slow learners", do indeed also deserve to be challenged, and deserve to be educated with a peer group, where they aren't the only slow- learning child in the class, but can have a group of 6 or so children with similar needs.

These children require a great deal more repetition and practice to learn skills than your average intelligence child. If they are the only such child in a class, they very likely will not have the type of instruction, practice, and review they need to master even the basics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
And again, highly gifted children who score in the 80th percentile are not highly gifted, bright and hard working, yes, but not highly gifted. Calling them that actually does a disservice to those kids because it negates the effect of effort on their achievement.

I never said kids scoring the top 80th %ile on the OLSAT were highly gifted, far from it.

I think we should continue to keep TAG center schools, but reserve them for the highly gifted, who would be much less likely to otherwise have a peer group (at least 6 - 8 kids per class) in their neighborhood schools.

[Anonymous]

I'm familiar but was referring to individual schools that have demographics closer to a 30/30/30 approximation that would place kids in specific TAG only ability level classes rather than referring to county wide TAG centers.

While class segregation is a bigger issue in schools and communities, PGCPS did an evaluation of its TAG testing procedures in 2006 and found African American, Hispanic, ESOL, FARMS, and special education were underrepresented, so at the level of some schools it could easily matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
And again, highly gifted children who score in the 80th percentile are not highly gifted, bright and hard working, yes, but not highly gifted. Calling them that actually does a disservice to those kids because it negates the effect of effort on their achievement.

I never said kids scoring the top 80th %ile on the OLSAT were highly gifted, far from it.

I think we should continue to keep TAG center schools, but reserve them for the highly gifted, who would be much less likely to otherwise have a peer group (at least 6 - 8 kids per class) in their neighborhood schools.

I agree with this coupled with students being tested a grade older than first. I could also see a child in TPO being eligible to ask for a transfer to a nearby school with a TRC program. Some schools have such a small number of TAG students that TPO very rarely happens and when it does it's one or two kids in a class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they wait until 3rd or 4th grade to test for TAG few if any middle class children will go to PGCPS. They should take only children in the. 90th plus percentile.

+1 This is the real issue that needs to be mentioned. Parents wouldn't hang on in bad neighborhood schools until fourth or fifth. As it stands, a lot of parents who don't get into the TAG centers end up going private.

That is the thing PG needs to address.

Conversely, considering that a lot of neighborhood schools are labeled "bad" based solely on test scores, if PGCPS weren't encouraging kids who are more likely to better on the tests to move to TAG centers, then the schools would be less likely to end up labeled as bad.