Have we gone too far with TAG in PGCPS?

[Anonymous]

I'm sure this will be contentious, but I've been thinking about it for a while and I think it deserves discussion. I think we test too early and there is too much focus getting kids into special centers so we can avoid bad neighborhood schools. First grade scores on the OLSATs are still considered unreliable. I just finished the chapter in Nurture Shock on testing and PGCPS is listed in there as a county that doesn't follow best practices. We over identify for middle class and upper income at early ages and under identify for Title 1 and ESOL at early ages and miss many kids. I initially thought that gifted was defined as kids who fall within the top 5% or higher, but it turns out we qualify kids who test at the 80% percentile on OLSAT. Even then, you can qualify if a teacher submits your name in first grade if you test in the 65% percentile. In first grade when you are pretty much guaranteed to be getting higher grades from your teacher if you have parents who can practice reading and math at home with you.

There's so much focus on getting your kid into a special center but it seems kind of crazy that in PGCPS you can get placed in special centers for scores in this bracket. In later grades, there's no place for those under identified kids that qualify in older grades. MCPS has their highly gifted centers, but those don't start until fourth or fifth, right?. Anne Arudel doesn't even test until 2nd grade.

Believe me, I understand the appeal for getting out of a bad neighborhood school, but I'm not sure this is working.

Anyone else feel this way?

[Anonymous]

While I somewhat agree with you, the reality is that even if you do test into the TAG program, only a small proportion of the students in the county that identify that way are actually in special centers.

If they bussed all TAG kids into special centers then I would be 100% on board with you, however, even in TAG you still have to lottery into a center.

[Anonymous]

It's not only how you qualify via a test, but also how you perform in TAG classes afterwards. For instance, is the performance very good to excellent consistently? In PG, I think the issue is that parents want a good, rigorous curriculum for their child, and they are convinced that a TAG curriculum will achieve that more than the comprehensive curriculum.

TAG may be defined very broadly in PG and in other districts as well. There is a difference, in my opinion, between advanced and "truly" gifted children. However, I believe that any child who can handle an advanced or enriched curriculum should have access to it, whether they are TAG or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Even then, you can qualify if a teacher submits your name in first grade if you test in the 65% percentile.

I believe the above used to be true, but has been discontinued -- now there is a strict 80%ile cut off being used.

That said, my kids are at TAG schools, and yes, the criteria of 80th %ile is still too low.

The kids who are at these schools are "good average students" but aren't very gifted, in all honesty.

If the cut off were raised to 10%ile, there would be more room at these schools for all who qualified to get in with no need for a lottery.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I meant raise the score cut off to 90th %ile!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm sure this will be contentious, but I've been thinking about it for a while and I think it deserves discussion. I think we test too early and there is too much focus getting kids into special centers so we can avoid bad neighborhood schools. First grade scores on the OLSATs are still considered unreliable. I just finished the chapter in Nurture Shock on testing and PGCPS is listed in there as a county that doesn't follow best practices. We over identify for middle class and upper income at early ages and under identify for Title 1 and ESOL at early ages and miss many kids. I initially thought that gifted was defined as kids who fall within the top 5% or higher, but it turns out we qualify kids who test at the 80% percentile on OLSAT. Even then, you can qualify if a teacher submits your name in first grade if you test in the 65% percentile. In first grade when you are pretty much guaranteed to be getting higher grades from your teacher if you have parents who can practice reading and math at home with you.

There's so much focus on getting your kid into a special center but it seems kind of crazy that in PGCPS you can get placed in special centers for scores in this bracket. In later grades, there's no place for those under identified kids that qualify in older grades. MCPS has their highly gifted centers, but those don't start until fourth or fifth, right?. Anne Arudel doesn't even test until 2nd grade.

Believe me, I understand the appeal for getting out of a bad neighborhood school, but I'm not sure this is working.

Anyone else feel this way?

They set the bar at the 80th percentile to include more title 1 and ESOL kids, but I agree, 1st grade is way too early. Scores for kids from affluent households may very well be higher due to an enriched early childhood environment. If they waited until 3rd or 4th scores would be much more reliable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Even then, you can qualify if a teacher submits your name in first grade if you test in the 65% percentile.

I believe the above used to be true, but has been discontinued -- now there is a strict 80%ile cut off being used.

That said, my kids are at TAG schools, and yes, the criteria of 80th %ile is still too low.

The kids who are at these schools are "good average students" but aren't very gifted, in all honesty.

If the cut off were raised to 10%ile, there would be more room at these schools for all who qualified to get in with no need for a lottery.

Here's how I see it.

Some children test better than others, and a test in and of itself is not always the best indicator of TAG qualification. That is why the certification includes teacher questionnaires, grades, etc.

The children who perform at a low level get supports and interventions. Those who perform at the highest level get TAG or advanced/enriched instruction. Those who perform less high but still very very nevertheless get... what? If they qualify, they get TAG. If they can handle it, then fine.

If my children are in TAG, and there are students who are 80th percentiloe also in TAG, I am trying to figure out why I should care and how that would take away from my children's experience. I cannot justify caring about that.

[Anonymous]

^ I meant "very high" in the 2nd paragraph.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The children who perform at a low level get supports and interventions.



Actually this isn't really true. Special education is a tricky business. To qualify, kids need to have a differential score between ability and achievement so a child scoring in the 25 - 50% percentile and being below grade level will get nothing from special education. If they aren't ESOL, they won't get anything either and there isn't a system for those kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The children who perform at a low level get supports and interventions.



Actually this isn't really true. Special education is a tricky business. To qualify, kids need to have a differential score between ability and achievement so a child scoring in the 25 - 50% percentile and being below grade level will get nothing from special education. If they aren't ESOL, they won't get anything either and there isn't a system for those kids.

I understand what you mean. But speaking from the experience of one of my children, who tests high but has special needs, a child who tests high but is not succeeding in a classrooom can get special ed. Although I was not referring to just special ed services above. There is Reading Recovery, "study hall" tutoring, or teacher efforts (e.g., fewer spelling words or reduced homework) for instance. There are schools that do these things and require that a child be in special ed in order to receive some sort of support or intervention.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

If my children are in TAG, and there are students who are 80th percentiloe also in TAG, I am trying to figure out why I should care and how that would take away from my children's experience. I cannot justify caring about that.

I do care, especially because there isn't enough space for all the TAG identified children who want to go to Center Schools, to go there, so we have a lottery system where kids who would be in the 99.9th percentile in terms of testing (kids who are most in need of finding a cohort or peer group) are in the coprehensive school because they didn't get a spot in the lottery; and kids at 80th %ile, whose needs could be more easily met at the neighborhood school with a pull out program or TAG in the Regular classroom, are in the Center school.

It just doesn't seem to make much sense.

In PG county schools, we have all 4 models of TAG services:

1) pull out services for TAG identified kids in neighborhood schools
2) TAG in the regular classroom in neighborhood schools (cluster TAG identified kids in one class)
3) TAG in center school-- one class is TAG, one class is "comprehensive"
4) TAG only center -- all classes are TAG

but we make no effort to match students' instructional need with the instructional model.

[Anonymous]

If they wait until 3rd or 4th grade to test for TAG few if any middle class children will go to PGCPS. They should take only children in the. 90th plus percentile.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If my children are in TAG, and there are students who are 80th percentiloe also in TAG, I am trying to figure out why I should care and how that would take away from my children's experience. I cannot justify caring about that.

I do care, especially because there isn't enough space for all the TAG identified children who want to go to Center Schools, to go there, so we have a lottery system where kids who would be in the 99.9th percentile in terms of testing (kids who are most in need of finding a cohort or peer group) are in the coprehensive school because they didn't get a spot in the lottery; and kids at 80th %ile, whose needs could be more easily met at the neighborhood school with a pull out program or TAG in the Regular classroom, are in the Center school.

It just doesn't seem to make much sense.

In PG county schools, we have all 4 models of TAG services:

1) pull out services for TAG identified kids in neighborhood schools
2) TAG in the regular classroom in neighborhood schools (cluster TAG identified kids in one class)
3) TAG in center school-- one class is TAG, one class is "comprehensive"
4) TAG only center -- all classes are TAG

but we make no effort to match students' instructional need with the instructional model.

But that is the luck of the lottery. The lack of spaces could be why PGCPS designated more TAG-only schools. I don't think that certain TAG kids deserve more than other TAG kids. There are too many variables.

As a side note, I know of some top percentile children whose parents pulled them out of the TAG school and put them back in the regular but very good elementary school. They didn't like the way the TAG school was run.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

But that is the luck of the lottery. The lack of spaces could be why PGCPS designated more TAG-only schools. I don't think that certain TAG kids deserve more than other TAG kids. There are too many variables.

I don't see it is certain kids "deserving more" than other kids; rather that ALL children deserve to be challenged and educated appropriately. I also believe that all children deserve to have a peer group of children with similar intellectual characteristics and abilities. If that can happen in a neighborhood school, so much the better. We have a great neighborhood school, but highly gifted children are not challenged there in the way that they are at the TAG center school -- although I think the center school certainly has room for improvement.

Why do I want my kids challenged? I don't want them to grow up thinking that learning is easy and will always come naturally to them. I want them to learn from an early age how to work hard to master things that are difficult! I want them to be confronted with interesting, new ideas every day, and not come home from school thinking that there is nothing in school to learn. I want them to be challenged with new ideas, and with the knowledge that they have to work hard, be organized, that they can't just coast through school. I also want them to be interested in going to school. I know that's what most parents want for their kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But that is the luck of the lottery. The lack of spaces could be why PGCPS designated more TAG-only schools. I don't think that certain TAG kids deserve more than other TAG kids. There are too many variables.

I don't see it is certain kids "deserving more" than other kids; rather that ALL children deserve to be challenged and educated appropriately. I also believe that all children deserve to have a peer group of children with similar intellectual characteristics and abilities. If that can happen in a neighborhood school, so much the better. We have a great neighborhood school, but highly gifted children are not challenged there in the way that they are at the TAG center school -- although I think the center school certainly has room for improvement.

Why do I want my kids challenged? I don't want them to grow up thinking that learning is easy and will always come naturally to them. I want them to learn from an early age how to work hard to master things that are difficult! I want them to be confronted with interesting, new ideas every day, and not come home from school thinking that there is nothing in school to learn. I want them to be challenged with new ideas, and with the knowledge that they have to work hard, be organized, that they can't just coast through school. I also want them to be interested in going to school. I know that's what most parents want for their kids.

I want to bring this up and say just because children test into the same percentile on a standardized exam does not mean that this will be true. You can be a certified genius but still not have the same intellectual characteristics and abilities.