Regret public school for your kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't the latest research tell us that small class sizes and low teacher-pupil ratios have more positive, quantifiable impact in the lower grades, rather than in high school?

In other words, if a given family has X dollars to spend but no more on a private education -- and some public school will therefore be in play at some point -- would it not make more sense to spend that money at the lower grades (and switch to public later)?

Of course I'm making a lot of assumptions here about class size in public schools, and more.

I think I read somewhere recently that the last decade or so of focusing on small class sizes hasn't really paid off, and that resources should be spent elsewhere (like teacher salaries). Anyone else read about that? Can't remember where. I saw it

Of course, there is huge difference b/w 10 kids v. 30 kids in a class, but I think the class sizes in publics v. privates vary at most by 5-8 kids. Again, if someone has better info, please share.

Thanks

[Anonymous]

I don't regret public school one bit. True, we had to augment DD's education in some places where it was weak. She had two train wreck teachers (as I like to call'em) but she also had some fantastic teachers. She's now going to private school in 10th grade, at her behest. I was opposed to it at first but now I'm okay with it. I think the new school's a good match for her and I think it's good to have a variety of experiences. And she will get a lot of attention and support from her teachers who on average will be better as a group but individually may or may not be better than dd's best public school teachers.

One very important thing she got from public school -- she learned how to be comfortable being the only white kid in the room. I know some people don't think that's important but, frankly, I'd rather she not grow up afraid to be in the minority. As a white upper middle class kid, that is not something she could get from a private school, no matter how how committed to diversity it is.

I used to teach at a private liberal arts college full of suburban white students who had gone to private schools. Don't get me wrong -- they were lovely young people and I was quite fond of them, but, for quite a few, their experience of the world was quite limited and they were scared of cities. (and I should note they were probably less cosmopolitan on average than the typical DCUM family, so please don't take this personally) And a fair number of them weren't any brighter than the best students I taught at the urban state university down the road. I feel bad saying this about them because they were good kids but for some of them -- their horizons seemed a bit narrow and there was nothing in their immediate environment (except their frustrated professors) pushing them to try something different.

I wanted something different for my dd -- so I am quite pleased she went to public school. And I think she will also benefit from private school. If you send your kid to private school, do it because it's the right school for the kid (and your family can afford it). Don't do it out of fear!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't the latest research tell us that small class sizes and low teacher-pupil ratios have more positive, quantifiable impact in the lower grades, rather than in high school?

In other words, if a given family has X dollars to spend but no more on a private education -- and some public school will therefore be in play at some point -- would it not make more sense to spend that money at the lower grades (and switch to public later)?

Of course I'm making a lot of assumptions here about class size in public schools, and more.

I think I read somewhere recently that the last decade or so of focusing on small class sizes hasn't really paid off, and that resources should be spent elsewhere (like teacher salaries). Anyone else read about that? Can't remember where. I saw it

Of course, there is huge difference b/w 10 kids v. 30 kids in a class, but I think the class sizes in publics v. privates vary at most by 5-8 kids. Again, if someone has better info, please share.

Thanks

You are right and wrong. The problem is that the classes are not yet small enough to make a difference. The sizes have to be less than 17 (ideally 12-15) in the early grades to see the most impact. Classes of 19-21 will have the same outcome as classes of 26-30. Most school districts, and some private schools, do not have the money to accomplish that.

[Anonymous]

Thanks. Didn't I read on this site that Beauvoir's class size is 20? FYI, my local elementary school is 23.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks. Didn't I read on this site that Beauvoir's class size is 20? FYI, my local elementary school is 23.

Yes, you have a good point. When the classes get to 20 (even with an aid or another teacher), you may as well be at 23. The school would have to have classes of 17 or less to get the positive effects. There are some private schools with classes as small as 12 in K-2. BTW, they are not necessarily the priciest schools. But 20 and 23 are large.

[Anonymous]

There really is a difference between a class of 20 with two full-time teachers and a class of 20 with one teacher. The student-teacher ratio matters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There really is a difference between a class of 20 with two full-time teachers and a class of 20 with one teacher. The student-teacher ratio matters.

For some reason, this is not the case. Research has shown over and over that it is better to split those classes into two of 10 students with one teacher for each class. The feeling is that the benefit is related to the dynamic with the other students. If the schools did their research they would know this. I think that they do know, but they are telling the parents that the ratio counts. In many private schools, the "two" teachers are really tag teaming, so you get two half teachers, which is really one teacher for 20 kids. The teachers are poorly paid, so this tag teaming might be an incentive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There really is a difference between a class of 20 with two full-time teachers and a class of 20 with one teacher. The student-teacher ratio matters.

For some reason, this is not the case. Research has shown over and over that it is better to split those classes into two of 10 students with one teacher for each class. The feeling is that the benefit is related to the dynamic with the other students. If the schools did their research they would know this. I think that they do know, but they are telling the parents that the ratio counts. In many private schools, the "two" teachers are really tag teaming, so you get two half teachers, which is really one teacher for 20 kids. The teachers are poorly paid, so this tag teaming might be an incentive.

I would love to know what research this is? Do you have studies or links to point out? (Asking sincerely, not challenging you, BTW.) I am a private school teacher and am pretty well-versed on the research, and have never seen this.

BTW, I can only speak for our child's school, but he has two full-time teachers and the two teachers often do things like each focus on 10 students at a time, etc. In other words, it definitely isn't "two half-teachers" as you mention. Sure, there is some tag-teaming, say, when one teacher takes the class to art and the other one has a planning period, but when they are in their home base class, it is two full-time teachers, and that definitely is different than one teacher for 20 kids.

[Anonymous]

I don't have time to look up all of the links yet, but start with the STAR project, from Tennessee. It has not been repeated too many times in the US. I will look up the other links later.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There really is a difference between a class of 20 with two full-time teachers and a class of 20 with one teacher. The student-teacher ratio matters.

For some reason, this is not the case. Research has shown over and over that it is better to split those classes into two of 10 students with one teacher for each class. The feeling is that the benefit is related to the dynamic with the other students. If the schools did their research they would know this. I think that they do know, but they are telling the parents that the ratio counts. In many private schools, the "two" teachers are really tag teaming, so you get two half teachers, which is really one teacher for 20 kids. The teachers are poorly paid, so this tag teaming might be an incentive.

My sister is a teacher and this poster is right on with the tag teaming point.

[Anonymous]

Having two teachers in a class of 20 allows for groups of 10 for specialized instruction in Math, Science, and Language Arts. Also, when there are two teachers for each class, any kid(s) who are having trouble listening, etc. will get the attention of one teacher while the other teacher can continue with the larger group. Our child's K class had several kids who needed to sit 1-1 with a teacher on many occasions throughout the day.

Tag-teaming may mean that one teacher instructs the whole group of 20 at times, while the other teacher sits out with a child who needs extra help with something or is being disruptive. With one teacher in a classroom one disruptive kid redirects the focus of the classroom and the child doesn't get the attention s/he needs to address the behavior either. And, a child who needs extra help "getting" something has a better chance of receiving help with the extra teacher (whether that teacher is only 1/2 or whole).

[Anonymous]

If the teachers are really full time, then they should just separate into two classes. The smaller classes has been shown to be more helpful than the differentiation by ability.
They don't do it because they want the breaks.
I looked at this specifically when I went school shopping, it is not easy to find true small classes in early years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't have time to look up all of the links yet, but start with the STAR project, from Tennessee. It has not been repeated too many times in the US. I will look up the other links later.

Respectfully, you are mistaken. (Just trying to have a civil discussion here, BTW, not to be unduly critical.) I just read the STAR project data and summary (http://www.heros-inc.org/star.htm#Overview), and it doesn't support your point. For one thing, it compared students only in class sizes of 13-17 per teacher, 22-25 per teacher, and 22-25 students per teacher with a teacher's aide. It didn't even look at classes of 18-20 with two full-time teachers! Similarly, you (or perhaps a different PP?) said, "Classes of 19-21 will have the same outcome as classes of 26-30." The STAR project doesn't say anything like this, for the very good reason that it didn't even evaluate classes of 19-21 students at all.

Again, if there is actual research to support your point that a class of 20 with two full-time teachers isn't any better than a class of 20 with one teacher, please identify such research; the STAR project doesn't support your claim. With all due respect, I am a teacher well-versed in educational research and have never come across anything that supports what you are saying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't have time to look up all of the links yet, but start with the STAR project, from Tennessee. It has not been repeated too many times in the US. I will look up the other links later.

Respectfully, you are mistaken. (Just trying to have a civil discussion here, BTW, not to be unduly critical.) I just read the STAR project data and summary (http://www.heros-inc.org/star.htm#Overview), and it doesn't support your point. For one thing, it compared students only in class sizes of 13-17 per teacher, 22-25 per teacher, and 22-25 students per teacher with a teacher's aide. It didn't even look at classes of 18-20 with two full-time teachers! Similarly, you (or perhaps a different PP?) said, "Classes of 19-21 will have the same outcome as classes of 26-30." The STAR project doesn't say anything like this, for the very good reason that it didn't even evaluate classes of 19-21 students at all.

Again, if there is actual research to support your point that a class of 20 with two full-time teachers isn't any better than a class of 20 with one teacher, please identify such research; the STAR project doesn't support your claim. With all due respect, I am a teacher well-versed in educational research and have never come across anything that supports what you are saying.

There are some other studies that address the sizes of 20. They look at all instruction and some actually come out of the military.

[Anonymous]

The STAR projetc never said that a class size of 10 is harmful.