Regret public school for your kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

There are some other studies that address the sizes of 20. They look at all instruction and some actually come out of the military.

Would love some actual data as opposed to vague promises of such--first it was suggested to read the STAR report, which didn't at all support the claim being made (see above), so I am skeptical of this comment as well.

It is just that your response was kind of rude. I do not want to take the time to look these things up.
All I can say is that in some education journal that I read, they implied that it is the actual group size, rather than the number of teachers that makes the difference. The article pointed out that the smaller classes seem to have an impact on the children in terms of how they interact with one another and the teacher, rather than just more time with the teacher. Their confidence seems to be elevated in small groups, and that leads to more participation. When there are 20 kids in the room, the advantage is lost even if you put 4 teachers in there. They implied that to count the group as small, it had to have the actual boundaries separating the children, like walls or book cases.


I agree, it has been in some literature that "group" size, not ratio.

Interesting. I am also a teacher and have never seen/heard of any study like this, so I would also like to know which specific studies these are. Doesn't seem unfair to me to ask someone for facts to back up what they say.

[Anonymous]

re: class absolute size vs. ratios ....

Some PPs are concerned there is no research to support the concept that a small class has advantages over a large class with multiple adults in the room. Some PPs asked if anyone has actually studied whether having 20 kids in a room is different than having 13 kids, or 28 kids. Still others, including myself, wonder if having so-called small "break out groups" during the day (for reading, etc) from a large-ish class has the same effect as just having a much smaller absolute class size to begin with.

Here is what the American Educational Research Association has to say, pulling data from STAR, but also from subsequent studies that built on STAR in the last 15 years:

Just placing another adult in the class does not achieve the same results, however. In the STAR experiment, policymakers thought that assigning full-time paraprofessionals to assist teachers might be a low-cost alternative to reducing class size. But careful analysis of the STAR data has made it clear that an aide in the classroom has no positive impact on student achievement or behavior. Also, it seems that class sizes must be reduced substantially to achieve the benefits. There is no experimental research suggesting that any benefits are realized by subtracting only a few children from a larger class— for example, transitioning from 28 to 25 students. Even a class of 20 students may be too large.

After a review of the research available as of 2003, the AERA concludes with these points:

* First, early intervention is important. Start in kindergarten or first grade.

* Second, the number of students in a class should range from 13 to 17.

* Third, if resources are scarce, target implementation by focusing on at-risk students.

* Fourth, maintain intensity by ensuring that students experience small classes every day, all day.

* Fifth, small classes should last at least two years for initial benefits and three to four years for longest-lasting benefits after the small classes are over.

For those of us wishing to read further about class size, and read more deeply than a DCUM posting, the American Educational Research Association cites these studies and articles concerning class size, achievement and behavior:



Molnar, A., et al. (1999). “Evaluating the SAGE Program: A Pilot Program in Targeted Pupil-Teacher Reduction in Wisconsin.”Educational Evaluation and Policy Analysis, Vol. 21, No. 2, pp.165–177.

Nye, B., Hedges, L.V., & Konstantopoulos, S. (2000). “Do Minorities and the Disadvantaged Benefit More from Small Classes? Evidence from the Tennessee Class Size Experiment.” American Journal of Education, Vol. 109, pp. 1–26.

Krueger, A.B., & Whitmore, D.M. (2001). Would Smaller Classes Help Close the Black-White Achievement Gap? Princeton,NJ: Princeton University.

Hanushek, E.A. (1999). “Some Findings from an Independent Investigation of the Tennessee STAR Experiment andfrom Other Investigations of Class Size Effects.” Educational Evaluation and Policy Analysis, Vol. 21, No. 2, pp. 143–164. Also Nye, B., Hedges, L.V., & Konstantopoulos, S. (2000). “The Effects ofSmall Classes on Academic Achievement: The Results of theTennessee Class Size Experiment.” American EducationalResearch Journal, Vol. 37, No. 1, pp. 123–151.

Finn, J.D., Gerber, S.B., Achilles, C.M., & Boyd-Zaharias, J.(2001). “The Enduring Effects of Small Classes.” Teachers College Record, Vol. 103, pp. 145–183.

Finn, J.D., Pannozzo, G.M., & Achilles, C.M. (2002). “The ‘Whys’ of Class Size: Student Behavior in Small Classes.” Review of Educational Research, Vol. 73, pp. 321–368.

Gerber, S.B., Finn, J.D., Achilles, C.M., & Boyd-Zaharias, J.(2001). “Teacher Aides and Students’ Achievement.” Educational Evaluation and Policy Analysis, Vol. 23, pp. 123–143.

Krueger, A.B. (2003). “Economic Considerations and Class Size.” Economic Journal, Vol. 113, pp. F34–F63.

Odden, A., & Archibald, S. (2000). Reallocating Resources: How to Boost Student Achievement without Asking for More. Thousand Oaks, CA: Corwin Press.

Hanushek, E.A. (1998). “The Evidence on Class Size.” Occasional Paper, 98-1. Rochester, NY: W. Allen Wallis Institute of Political Economy, University of Rochester.

American Federation of Teachers (2002), Survey and Analysis of Teacher Salary Trends, Washington, DC: American Federation of Teachers.

Bohrnstedt, G.W., & Stecher, B.M. (Eds.) (2002). What We Have Learned about Class Size Reduction in California. CapstoneReport. Sacramento, CA: California Department of Education.

[Anonymous]

I do find it annoying when people don't bother to actually read what previous people have posted, sigh. It has been discussed over and over that the issue is whether having *two full-time teachers* in a larger class (say, 20) is a different issue than having two classes of ten. STAR does not discuss that at all--they are only concerned with a teacher and an aide. No one has presented any data to suggest that a class with two regular teachers is not as valuable as smaller classes. Never mind, I am done with this thread...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I do find it annoying when people don't bother to actually read what previous people have posted, sigh. It has been discussed over and over that the issue is whether having *two full-time teachers* in a larger class (say, 20) is a different issue than having two classes of ten. STAR does not discuss that at all--they are only concerned with a teacher and an aide. No one has presented any data to suggest that a class with two regular teachers is not as valuable as smaller classes. Never mind, I am done with this thread...

I bet you'll read this, so I don't think you're done.

If I remember correctly, you are the teacher who is one of two with 20 kids?

Well, the pp had some good info, and you should politely say thanks for the work that he/she did. I am the other pp, who thought that you were a bit rude.

Now, why does your school not do what the researchers say works? Maybe there are no studies with two teachers for twenty kids, but there are studies about 13-17 kids, not 20 per class. So the point would be, after taking parents money, the school should follow the best practices recommended and have class sizes of 13-17, rather than inventing setups out of thin air that have not been proven to work. End of story. Why don't the privates do the right thing and reduce class size? Because the parents don't know; and the schools either don't know or don't care, and it is cheaper. Seems like they lure the teachers in with "lighter" work loads than public schools. Teachers can tag team a class, all the while the parents think that the ratio is what counts.

I am a little concerned about this situation that looks like recklessness on the part of private schools. There is a push to force private schools to have their kids tested in response to NCLB. I am all for it. I think that we would finally be able to shine a bright light on what is really going on in these schools. I would not be surprised if the scores at Janney or Lafayette are the same as at Sidwell.

[Anonymous]

I'd love to see such tests done, but I doubt that the gov't will ever ask or achieve private school testing...

[Anonymous]

to PP 20:34; I think it is easy to scorn what you cannot have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:to PP 20:34; I think it is easy to scorn what you cannot have.

ugh. so obnoxious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:to PP 20:34; I think it is easy to scorn what you cannot have.

What can't I have? I am sending my dd to one of the most expensive private schools. I make over $400k. I just noticed that my neighbors who make what I do have their kids in public school, and are doing well, maybe better. Are we wasting our money? You tell me (if you're the private school teacher).

[Anonymous]

Also, to the teacher, I am the one who wrote the thread, "private schools should do better".
My dd and ds could be getting short changed in the end, by incompentent private schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is a push to force private schools to have their kids tested in response to NCLB. I am all for it.

Oh God, please no. Less standardized testing is one of the primary reasons I'm sending my children to private school.

And while I agree with PP that private schools can and do better, it's also worth noting that you can find private schools with smaller classes if that is an important priority. I believe, for ex, that at Maret although the kindergarten has 20 children, the first grade classes each have 14.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a push to force private schools to have their kids tested in response to NCLB. I am all for it.

Oh God, please no. Less standardized testing is one of the primary reasons I'm sending my children to private school.

And while I agree with PP that private schools can and do better, it's also worth noting that you can find private schools with smaller classes if that is an important priority. I believe, for ex, that at Maret although the kindergarten has 20 children, the first grade classes each have 14.

Why do they wait until ist grade to drop the size?

[Anonymous]

sorry, I meant 1st grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[quote=Anonymous
Interesting point regarding the safety of pp's local middle and high school. I think it highlights an important factor that people overlook in the public/private school decision - what kind of environment do you want your children to be in on a daily basis? I went to DCPS all the way through, and I got so much value from being surrounded by a diverse, and yes, at times, dangerous populations of kids from different parts of the city. I learned a lot about life - no amount of curriculum could have taught me the equivalent lessons in street smarts, socioeconomics, and just generally how to navigate in a world that isn't always easy. My parents thought about taking me out of DCPS and putting me in private school, but I'm so glad they didn't. Once I got to college, I could see the differences between kids that had gone to private schools where they were protected from a lot of the responsibilities and realities of the real world, and those who went to public schools where those realities were front and center. I think the public school kids were generally better equipped to navigate on their own through college and take advantage of all the academic opportunities, whereas the private school kids were a little more content to rest on their laurels and were less adventurous. That's a generalization of course, but when I think about where to send my children, I always take into account more than just the academics of the school. While I don't want them in a school where all they're going to learn is street smarts and scrappy survival skills, I also don't want them in such a rarefied environment that they will be ill-prepared to deal with the world on their own terms. I know a lot of people are after that rarefied environment though, and I would agree that the best way to get that is to go to a private school. I think a parent expecting that from a public school would be disappointed.

So true - we could always tell who the private school students were - deer in headlights. Of course, if the path is private school to private college than one can easily go through life without ever needing to be street smart or have an understanding of class and diversity. Why are so many companies failing miserably to reach out to hispanics and blacks? Because they are run by Harvard MBA grads that dont have a clue.

[Anonymous]

I think the issue WRT class size is student engagement. Google those terms and you see articles that explain the smaller classes and impact separate from the teachers spending more time with students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP here.

The range in quality among private schools is huge. Some are great, some are not. So, to the PP who said "what private school can't afford first rate materials" - let me tell you that there are plenty of private schools just like that. The fact that they can select the kinds of kids they let in/keep also means that the school you choose may be a miserable fit for your kid. Fairfax and Arlington Counties can afford special education resources that dwarf what the local privates can offer - maybe irrelevant for your kid, maybe not. Maybe you just don't know the answer to that yet.

I'm not slamming private. I'm just stating that it isn't possibly as simple as "private is always better."

I would agree that private isn't always better, stated like that, but I would say that an *excellent* private school is probably always better.

I am not so sure. The last time St. Albans and Whitman like elite private schools were compared, guess which school had higher SAT scores.