Differences in rigor - AP classes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP who said "you have to choose if you are there for the education or the 4.0" is spot on.

We have friends at a W school who are taking some of the same classes on paper as DS at private, but when I've compared notes with my friends, it's like their child is taking a completely different class. What's more, the W school does not require that these kids take the AP exam, but still gives them the GPA bump. It's not fair, but at the end of the day, we choose to send our DS to a school where he is learning to study and work hard. While college admission is a bit of a crapshoot these days, we are at least confident that he will be well-prepared. DD is now at a T20 college and she's said in many ways it's easier than HS.

Whitman AP pass rate is 91% and 84% of kids take the AP test. I don’t know which W school you refer, but seems like they prepare adequately.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am in NYC, so maybe it is different elsewhere in the country. But there is SO much difference in rigor between various schools, especially in AP classes. My older kid goes to a selective school where the AP classes involve mountains of homework, and the level of teaching assumes every kid will get a 5 on the test (most do). Taking more than 4 APs per year is practically a death sentence, though there are always kids who do it to chase Ivies. My younger kid goes to a school where the AP classes are more challenging than non, but only slightly. There's test re-takes and tons of extra credit available, so a reasonable amount of effort is basically a guaranteed A grade. A course load of 4 - 5 APs is a relative breeze. Of course, most kids get 2's, if they even take the tests, since they clearly aren't prepared. Ironically, younger kids' school does very well with college placements, probably bc of the APs. But it honestly doesn't seem fair for colleges to view these AP classes as equivalent - objectively, they aren't. The same curriculum can look very difference in practice. Thoughts?

Colleges know which schools/school districts allow retakes, allow any student to sign up for whatever AP courses they want, which ones require students to take the exam, etc. They know they aren't the same rigor. My neighbor's son took AP English in public school and never actually read an entire novel.

You want to believe this but as far as I can tell it just isn't true. Like the $100k college consultant. AOs fall for it every time.

What isn't true? AOs know that MCPS is full of 4.0+ because of retakes, no late penalties, no midterms/finals, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am in NYC, so maybe it is different elsewhere in the country. But there is SO much difference in rigor between various schools, especially in AP classes. My older kid goes to a selective school where the AP classes involve mountains of homework, and the level of teaching assumes every kid will get a 5 on the test (most do). Taking more than 4 APs per year is practically a death sentence, though there are always kids who do it to chase Ivies. My younger kid goes to a school where the AP classes are more challenging than non, but only slightly. There's test re-takes and tons of extra credit available, so a reasonable amount of effort is basically a guaranteed A grade. A course load of 4 - 5 APs is a relative breeze. Of course, most kids get 2's, if they even take the tests, since they clearly aren't prepared. Ironically, younger kids' school does very well with college placements, probably bc of the APs. But it honestly doesn't seem fair for colleges to view these AP classes as equivalent - objectively, they aren't. The same curriculum can look very difference in practice. Thoughts?

So, why does one kid go to a good school and the other a shitty school?

Your scenario sounds contrived to spur debate.

I’m not OP, but like OP I have one kid at each kind of school. They’re at different schools because DC1’s school is selective, and DC2 didn’t get in.

That’s why it’s impossible to say what’s “fair.” True, DC1 works much harder than DC2 for the same grade in what is nominally the same class. That doesn’t seem fair. But DC2 doesn’t even have the opportunity to take the more rigorous classes, and that doesn’t seem fair either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am in NYC, so maybe it is different elsewhere in the country. But there is SO much difference in rigor between various schools, especially in AP classes. My older kid goes to a selective school where the AP classes involve mountains of homework, and the level of teaching assumes every kid will get a 5 on the test (most do). Taking more than 4 APs per year is practically a death sentence, though there are always kids who do it to chase Ivies. My younger kid goes to a school where the AP classes are more challenging than non, but only slightly. There's test re-takes and tons of extra credit available, so a reasonable amount of effort is basically a guaranteed A grade. A course load of 4 - 5 APs is a relative breeze. Of course, most kids get 2's, if they even take the tests, since they clearly aren't prepared. Ironically, younger kids' school does very well with college placements, probably bc of the APs. But it honestly doesn't seem fair for colleges to view these AP classes as equivalent - objectively, they aren't. The same curriculum can look very difference in practice. Thoughts?

So, why does one kid go to a good school and the other a shitty school?

Your scenario sounds contrived to spur debate.

I’m not OP, but like OP I have one kid at each kind of school. They’re at different schools because DC1’s school is selective, and DC2 didn’t get in.

That’s why it’s impossible to say what’s “fair.” True, DC1 works much harder than DC2 for the same grade in what is nominally the same class. That doesn’t seem fair. But DC2 doesn’t even have the opportunity to take the more rigorous classes, and that doesn’t seem fair either.

I just don’t know anyone in NYC that sends their kid to a local public HS. They go selective or charter or private.

I mean nobody…no one..zero. It’s the equivalent of someone saying I send one kid in DC to Walls and the other to Anacostia High. That family doesn’t exist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am in NYC, so maybe it is different elsewhere in the country. But there is SO much difference in rigor between various schools, especially in AP classes. My older kid goes to a selective school where the AP classes involve mountains of homework, and the level of teaching assumes every kid will get a 5 on the test (most do). Taking more than 4 APs per year is practically a death sentence, though there are always kids who do it to chase Ivies. My younger kid goes to a school where the AP classes are more challenging than non, but only slightly. There's test re-takes and tons of extra credit available, so a reasonable amount of effort is basically a guaranteed A grade. A course load of 4 - 5 APs is a relative breeze. Of course, most kids get 2's, if they even take the tests, since they clearly aren't prepared. Ironically, younger kids' school does very well with college placements, probably bc of the APs. But it honestly doesn't seem fair for colleges to view these AP classes as equivalent - objectively, they aren't. The same curriculum can look very difference in practice. Thoughts?

So, why does one kid go to a good school and the other a shitty school?

Your scenario sounds contrived to spur debate.

I’m not OP, but like OP I have one kid at each kind of school. They’re at different schools because DC1’s school is selective, and DC2 didn’t get in.

That’s why it’s impossible to say what’s “fair.” True, DC1 works much harder than DC2 for the same grade in what is nominally the same class. That doesn’t seem fair. But DC2 doesn’t even have the opportunity to take the more rigorous classes, and that doesn’t seem fair either.

I just don’t know anyone in NYC that sends their kid to a local public HS. They go selective or charter or private.

I mean nobody…no one..zero. It’s the equivalent of someone saying I send one kid in DC to Walls and the other to Anacostia High. That family doesn’t exist.

I'm in NY. Not sure what you mean by charter. Brooklyn Prospect? Success Academy? We dont have many charters, and they're not in demand.

But PLENTY go public. Never mind the SHS schools like Stuy and Bronx Sci and Laguardia. Here are regular public schools - go ahead and look up their college placement. Eleanor Roosevelt. NEST, Columbia Secondary, Beacon. Lab. Clinton. Townsend Harris. Baruch, Manhattan Hunter, Special Music School, The Bards (Manhattan, Brooklyn, Bronx), Frank Sinatra, Museum, Hunter, ischool, Millennium, Dual Lang/Asian Affairs, SOF, Bacc School ... on and on

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am in NYC, so maybe it is different elsewhere in the country. But there is SO much difference in rigor between various schools, especially in AP classes. My older kid goes to a selective school where the AP classes involve mountains of homework, and the level of teaching assumes every kid will get a 5 on the test (most do). Taking more than 4 APs per year is practically a death sentence, though there are always kids who do it to chase Ivies. My younger kid goes to a school where the AP classes are more challenging than non, but only slightly. There's test re-takes and tons of extra credit available, so a reasonable amount of effort is basically a guaranteed A grade. A course load of 4 - 5 APs is a relative breeze. Of course, most kids get 2's, if they even take the tests, since they clearly aren't prepared. Ironically, younger kids' school does very well with college placements, probably bc of the APs. But it honestly doesn't seem fair for colleges to view these AP classes as equivalent - objectively, they aren't. The same curriculum can look very difference in practice. Thoughts?

So, why does one kid go to a good school and the other a shitty school?

Your scenario sounds contrived to spur debate.

🤣 Honestly thought the same

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am in NYC, so maybe it is different elsewhere in the country. But there is SO much difference in rigor between various schools, especially in AP classes. My older kid goes to a selective school where the AP classes involve mountains of homework, and the level of teaching assumes every kid will get a 5 on the test (most do). Taking more than 4 APs per year is practically a death sentence, though there are always kids who do it to chase Ivies. My younger kid goes to a school where the AP classes are more challenging than non, but only slightly. There's test re-takes and tons of extra credit available, so a reasonable amount of effort is basically a guaranteed A grade. A course load of 4 - 5 APs is a relative breeze. Of course, most kids get 2's, if they even take the tests, since they clearly aren't prepared. Ironically, younger kids' school does very well with college placements, probably bc of the APs. But it honestly doesn't seem fair for colleges to view these AP classes as equivalent - objectively, they aren't. The same curriculum can look very difference in practice. Thoughts?

So, why does one kid go to a good school and the other a shitty school?

Your scenario sounds contrived to spur debate.

I’m not OP, but like OP I have one kid at each kind of school. They’re at different schools because DC1’s school is selective, and DC2 didn’t get in.

That’s why it’s impossible to say what’s “fair.” True, DC1 works much harder than DC2 for the same grade in what is nominally the same class. That doesn’t seem fair. But DC2 doesn’t even have the opportunity to take the more rigorous classes, and that doesn’t seem fair either.

I just don’t know anyone in NYC that sends their kid to a local public HS. They go selective or charter or private.

I mean nobody…no one..zero. It’s the equivalent of someone saying I send one kid in DC to Walls and the other to Anacostia High. That family doesn’t exist.

I'm in NY. Not sure what you mean by charter. Brooklyn Prospect? Success Academy? We dont have many charters, and they're not in demand.

But PLENTY go public. Never mind the SHS schools like Stuy and Bronx Sci and Laguardia. Here are regular public schools - go ahead and look up their college placement. Eleanor Roosevelt. NEST, Columbia Secondary, Beacon. Lab. Clinton. Townsend Harris. Baruch, Manhattan Hunter, Special Music School, The Bards (Manhattan, Brooklyn, Bronx), Frank Sinatra, Museum, Hunter, ischool, Millennium, Dual Lang/Asian Affairs, SOF, Bacc School ... on and on

I won’t look them all up but the first one you list (Eleanor Roosevelt) has an entire application and admissions process with priority given to kids that meet academic screening.

That doesn’t sound like a school you just walk in and register for, nor does it sound like a school where all the kids get a 1 or 2 on the AP tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am in NYC, so maybe it is different elsewhere in the country. But there is SO much difference in rigor between various schools, especially in AP classes. My older kid goes to a selective school where the AP classes involve mountains of homework, and the level of teaching assumes every kid will get a 5 on the test (most do). Taking more than 4 APs per year is practically a death sentence, though there are always kids who do it to chase Ivies. My younger kid goes to a school where the AP classes are more challenging than non, but only slightly. There's test re-takes and tons of extra credit available, so a reasonable amount of effort is basically a guaranteed A grade. A course load of 4 - 5 APs is a relative breeze. Of course, most kids get 2's, if they even take the tests, since they clearly aren't prepared. Ironically, younger kids' school does very well with college placements, probably bc of the APs. But it honestly doesn't seem fair for colleges to view these AP classes as equivalent - objectively, they aren't. The same curriculum can look very difference in practice. Thoughts?

Colleges know which schools/school districts allow retakes, allow any student to sign up for whatever AP courses they want, which ones require students to take the exam, etc. They know they aren't the same rigor. My neighbor's son took AP English in public school and never actually read an entire novel.

You want to believe this but as far as I can tell it just isn't true. Like the $100k college consultant. AOs fall for it every time.

What isn't true? AOs know that MCPS is full of 4.0+ because of retakes, no late penalties, no midterms/finals, etc.

Is your kid in college now? Because Mcps has reinstated the late penalties. Retakes are very limited (but actually help kids learn the material….), and now some classes have state-mandated finals that make up up to 20% of the final grade.

My MCPS kid got two 5s and one 4 last year. Got a B both semesters with a lot of effort for the class they earned a 4 score in. Most kids get 5s in the class as it’s very demanding.

[Anonymous]

Ao’s know the top schools, and they take more students from these schools. 90%get 4s&5s, 1/3 of kids get in T25, mine are at r10 because they managed to stand out even in a competitive school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am in NYC, so maybe it is different elsewhere in the country. But there is SO much difference in rigor between various schools, especially in AP classes. My older kid goes to a selective school where the AP classes involve mountains of homework, and the level of teaching assumes every kid will get a 5 on the test (most do). Taking more than 4 APs per year is practically a death sentence, though there are always kids who do it to chase Ivies. My younger kid goes to a school where the AP classes are more challenging than non, but only slightly. There's test re-takes and tons of extra credit available, so a reasonable amount of effort is basically a guaranteed A grade. A course load of 4 - 5 APs is a relative breeze. Of course, most kids get 2's, if they even take the tests, since they clearly aren't prepared. Ironically, younger kids' school does very well with college placements, probably bc of the APs. But it honestly doesn't seem fair for colleges to view these AP classes as equivalent - objectively, they aren't. The same curriculum can look very difference in practice. Thoughts?

Colleges know which schools/school districts allow retakes, allow any student to sign up for whatever AP courses they want, which ones require students to take the exam, etc. They know they aren't the same rigor. My neighbor's son took AP English in public school and never actually read an entire novel.

You want to believe this but as far as I can tell it just isn't true. Like the $100k college consultant. AOs fall for it every time.

What isn't true? AOs know that MCPS is full of 4.0+ because of retakes, no late penalties, no midterms/finals, etc.

Is your kid in college now? Because Mcps has reinstated the late penalties. Retakes are very limited (but actually help kids learn the material….), and now some classes have state-mandated finals that make up up to 20% of the final grade.

My MCPS kid got two 5s and one 4 last year. Got a B both semesters with a lot of effort for the class they earned a 4 score in. Most kids get 5s in the class as it’s very demanding.

MCPS gives an A for anything 89.5 and up. That alone is a massive bump. All other schools around here require a 93 for an A or 4.0.

[Anonymous]

College Board just started in 2023 a school recognition program for both school scores and access.

https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/exam-administration-ordering-scores/scores/awards/school-districts-awards

I know my kid’s DC private was quite pleased with their award and it’s going onto the school profile that all colleges receive.

[Anonymous]

Chose the hard AP school as believe in whatever pushed for learning, growth, and college readiness. Test optional made it extra hard to swallow though. Worked great for oldest that thrives in that environment, regret for youngest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am in NYC, so maybe it is different elsewhere in the country. But there is SO much difference in rigor between various schools, especially in AP classes. My older kid goes to a selective school where the AP classes involve mountains of homework, and the level of teaching assumes every kid will get a 5 on the test (most do). Taking more than 4 APs per year is practically a death sentence, though there are always kids who do it to chase Ivies. My younger kid goes to a school where the AP classes are more challenging than non, but only slightly. There's test re-takes and tons of extra credit available, so a reasonable amount of effort is basically a guaranteed A grade. A course load of 4 - 5 APs is a relative breeze. Of course, most kids get 2's, if they even take the tests, since they clearly aren't prepared. Ironically, younger kids' school does very well with college placements, probably bc of the APs. But it honestly doesn't seem fair for colleges to view these AP classes as equivalent - objectively, they aren't. The same curriculum can look very difference in practice. Thoughts?

So, why does one kid go to a good school and the other a shitty school?

Your scenario sounds contrived to spur debate.

+1

"Most kids get 2's'. Give me a freaking break.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am in NYC, so maybe it is different elsewhere in the country. But there is SO much difference in rigor between various schools, especially in AP classes. My older kid goes to a selective school where the AP classes involve mountains of homework, and the level of teaching assumes every kid will get a 5 on the test (most do). Taking more than 4 APs per year is practically a death sentence, though there are always kids who do it to chase Ivies. My younger kid goes to a school where the AP classes are more challenging than non, but only slightly. There's test re-takes and tons of extra credit available, so a reasonable amount of effort is basically a guaranteed A grade. A course load of 4 - 5 APs is a relative breeze. Of course, most kids get 2's, if they even take the tests, since they clearly aren't prepared. Ironically, younger kids' school does very well with college placements, probably bc of the APs. But it honestly doesn't seem fair for colleges to view these AP classes as equivalent - objectively, they aren't. The same curriculum can look very difference in practice. Thoughts?

So, why does one kid go to a good school and the other a shitty school?

Your scenario sounds contrived to spur debate.

I’m not OP, but like OP I have one kid at each kind of school. They’re at different schools because DC1’s school is selective, and DC2 didn’t get in.

That’s why it’s impossible to say what’s “fair.” True, DC1 works much harder than DC2 for the same grade in what is nominally the same class. That doesn’t seem fair. But DC2 doesn’t even have the opportunity to take the more rigorous classes, and that doesn’t seem fair either.

I just don’t know anyone in NYC that sends their kid to a local public HS. They go selective or charter or private.

I mean nobody…no one..zero. It’s the equivalent of someone saying I send one kid in DC to Walls and the other to Anacostia High. That family doesn’t exist.

I'm in NY. Not sure what you mean by charter. Brooklyn Prospect? Success Academy? We dont have many charters, and they're not in demand.

But PLENTY go public. Never mind the SHS schools like Stuy and Bronx Sci and Laguardia. Here are regular public schools - go ahead and look up their college placement. Eleanor Roosevelt. NEST, Columbia Secondary, Beacon. Lab. Clinton. Townsend Harris. Baruch, Manhattan Hunter, Special Music School, The Bards (Manhattan, Brooklyn, Bronx), Frank Sinatra, Museum, Hunter, ischool, Millennium, Dual Lang/Asian Affairs, SOF, Bacc School ... on and on

I won’t look them all up but the first one you list (Eleanor Roosevelt) has an entire application and admissions process with priority given to kids that meet academic screening.

That doesn’t sound like a school you just walk in and register for, nor does it sound like a school where all the kids get a 1 or 2 on the AP tests.

But that's not school works in NYC. You can't just walk into ANY high school and register your kid. That ends for us in grade school (5th). We have a middle school application process (limited to your district, but our districts are big - this is when most kids start commuting via subway to school). And then our high school application process is citywide. You have an academic "tier" based on grades and then a RAN (random assigned number aka lottery number). You get some preference if you're SWD or ELL or are very very low income. You also have an Ed Opt category.

Some schools want essays, some schools don't look at tiers (Beacon, one of the best, is essay only), some only look at Ed Opt (so take equal high, medium, low levels of kids .. so yes, kids who get 1s on APs are in same school as some of the best students), some want a portfolio or audition. You rank your choices and then you hope to get placed in one of your top options.

If you move to NYC while your kids are in high school, you still can't just walk in and register. That's not EVER a thing. You go to a Family Welcome Center and you get placed in whatever school has seats.

So when you say "I mean nobody…no one..zero. It’s the equivalent of someone saying I send one kid in DC to Walls and the other to Anacostia High. That family doesn’t exist." that's 100% bullshit. You clearly know nothing about how the system works or who attends public school. Thousands of kids who end up in top colleges are in very strong public schools in nyc.

[Anonymous]

I don’t understand why it’s so hard for some of you to believe that many families send different kids to different schools with different levels of rigor. One at GDS and the other at Field? One at Walls and the other at JR? One at RMIB and the other at BCC? One at TJ and the other at … some neighborhood high school in FCPS? This sort of thing happens all the time. And even when both schools are selective, as with two privates or two magnets, it is common for one to be more selective than the other.