Differences in rigor - AP classes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am in NYC, so maybe it is different elsewhere in the country. But there is SO much difference in rigor between various schools, especially in AP classes. My older kid goes to a selective school where the AP classes involve mountains of homework, and the level of teaching assumes every kid will get a 5 on the test (most do). Taking more than 4 APs per year is practically a death sentence, though there are always kids who do it to chase Ivies. My younger kid goes to a school where the AP classes are more challenging than non, but only slightly. There's test re-takes and tons of extra credit available, so a reasonable amount of effort is basically a guaranteed A grade. A course load of 4 - 5 APs is a relative breeze. Of course, most kids get 2's, if they even take the tests, since they clearly aren't prepared. Ironically, younger kids' school does very well with college placements, probably bc of the APs. But it honestly doesn't seem fair for colleges to view these AP classes as equivalent - objectively, they aren't. The same curriculum can look very difference in practice. Thoughts?

So, why does one kid go to a good school and the other a shitty school?

Your scenario sounds contrived to spur debate.

I’m not OP, but like OP I have one kid at each kind of school. They’re at different schools because DC1’s school is selective, and DC2 didn’t get in.

That’s why it’s impossible to say what’s “fair.” True, DC1 works much harder than DC2 for the same grade in what is nominally the same class. That doesn’t seem fair. But DC2 doesn’t even have the opportunity to take the more rigorous classes, and that doesn’t seem fair either.

I just don’t know anyone in NYC that sends their kid to a local public HS. They go selective or charter or private.

I mean nobody…no one..zero. It’s the equivalent of someone saying I send one kid in DC to Walls and the other to Anacostia High. That family doesn’t exist.

You don't know everyone obviously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am in NYC, so maybe it is different elsewhere in the country. But there is SO much difference in rigor between various schools, especially in AP classes. My older kid goes to a selective school where the AP classes involve mountains of homework, and the level of teaching assumes every kid will get a 5 on the test (most do). Taking more than 4 APs per year is practically a death sentence, though there are always kids who do it to chase Ivies. My younger kid goes to a school where the AP classes are more challenging than non, but only slightly. There's test re-takes and tons of extra credit available, so a reasonable amount of effort is basically a guaranteed A grade. A course load of 4 - 5 APs is a relative breeze. Of course, most kids get 2's, if they even take the tests, since they clearly aren't prepared. Ironically, younger kids' school does very well with college placements, probably bc of the APs. But it honestly doesn't seem fair for colleges to view these AP classes as equivalent - objectively, they aren't. The same curriculum can look very difference in practice. Thoughts?

So, why does one kid go to a good school and the other a shitty school?

Your scenario sounds contrived to spur debate.

I’m not OP, but like OP I have one kid at each kind of school. They’re at different schools because DC1’s school is selective, and DC2 didn’t get in.

That’s why it’s impossible to say what’s “fair.” True, DC1 works much harder than DC2 for the same grade in what is nominally the same class. That doesn’t seem fair. But DC2 doesn’t even have the opportunity to take the more rigorous classes, and that doesn’t seem fair either.

I just don’t know anyone in NYC that sends their kid to a local public HS. They go selective or charter or private.

I mean nobody…no one..zero. It’s the equivalent of someone saying I send one kid in DC to Walls and the other to Anacostia High. That family doesn’t exist.

I'm in NY. Not sure what you mean by charter. Brooklyn Prospect? Success Academy? We dont have many charters, and they're not in demand.

But PLENTY go public. Never mind the SHS schools like Stuy and Bronx Sci and Laguardia. Here are regular public schools - go ahead and look up their college placement. Eleanor Roosevelt. NEST, Columbia Secondary, Beacon. Lab. Clinton. Townsend Harris. Baruch, Manhattan Hunter, Special Music School, The Bards (Manhattan, Brooklyn, Bronx), Frank Sinatra, Museum, Hunter, ischool, Millennium, Dual Lang/Asian Affairs, SOF, Bacc School ... on and on

I won’t look them all up but the first one you list (Eleanor Roosevelt) has an entire application and admissions process with priority given to kids that meet academic screening.

That doesn’t sound like a school you just walk in and register for, nor does it sound like a school where all the kids get a 1 or 2 on the AP tests.

You don't seem familiar with the crazy process everyone has to go through to go to public high school in NY.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why it’s so hard for some of you to believe that many families send different kids to different schools with different levels of rigor. One at GDS and the other at Field? One at Walls and the other at JR? One at RMIB and the other at BCC? One at TJ and the other at … some neighborhood high school in FCPS? This sort of thing happens all the time. And even when both schools are selective, as with two privates or two magnets, it is common for one to be more selective than the other.

THIS. It happens all the time. I know twins who were split between Jackson Reed and Sidwell. I had this dynamic in my own house for a few years (one twin in public, one in private) but we ended up moving twin 2 to a private for high school. I know 2 other sets of twins who are split between a "Big3" private and another, lower tier private. I know at least a dozen siblings who are split by public/charter and private (some Big3, some not).

Parents choose schools by fit. They also let their kids have a say where they attend school by high school. And there really isn't a "universally best option" out there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am in NYC, so maybe it is different elsewhere in the country. But there is SO much difference in rigor between various schools, especially in AP classes. My older kid goes to a selective school where the AP classes involve mountains of homework, and the level of teaching assumes every kid will get a 5 on the test (most do). Taking more than 4 APs per year is practically a death sentence, though there are always kids who do it to chase Ivies. My younger kid goes to a school where the AP classes are more challenging than non, but only slightly. There's test re-takes and tons of extra credit available, so a reasonable amount of effort is basically a guaranteed A grade. A course load of 4 - 5 APs is a relative breeze. Of course, most kids get 2's, if they even take the tests, since they clearly aren't prepared. Ironically, younger kids' school does very well with college placements, probably bc of the APs. But it honestly doesn't seem fair for colleges to view these AP classes as equivalent - objectively, they aren't. The same curriculum can look very difference in practice. Thoughts?

So, why does one kid go to a good school and the other a shitty school?

Your scenario sounds contrived to spur debate.

I’m not OP, but like OP I have one kid at each kind of school. They’re at different schools because DC1’s school is selective, and DC2 didn’t get in.

That’s why it’s impossible to say what’s “fair.” True, DC1 works much harder than DC2 for the same grade in what is nominally the same class. That doesn’t seem fair. But DC2 doesn’t even have the opportunity to take the more rigorous classes, and that doesn’t seem fair either.

I just don’t know anyone in NYC that sends their kid to a local public HS. They go selective or charter or private.

I mean nobody…no one..zero. It’s the equivalent of someone saying I send one kid in DC to Walls and the other to Anacostia High. That family doesn’t exist.

I'm in NY. Not sure what you mean by charter. Brooklyn Prospect? Success Academy? We dont have many charters, and they're not in demand.

But PLENTY go public. Never mind the SHS schools like Stuy and Bronx Sci and Laguardia. Here are regular public schools - go ahead and look up their college placement. Eleanor Roosevelt. NEST, Columbia Secondary, Beacon. Lab. Clinton. Townsend Harris. Baruch, Manhattan Hunter, Special Music School, The Bards (Manhattan, Brooklyn, Bronx), Frank Sinatra, Museum, Hunter, ischool, Millennium, Dual Lang/Asian Affairs, SOF, Bacc School ... on and on

I won’t look them all up but the first one you list (Eleanor Roosevelt) has an entire application and admissions process with priority given to kids that meet academic screening.

That doesn’t sound like a school you just walk in and register for, nor does it sound like a school where all the kids get a 1 or 2 on the AP tests.

But that's not school works in NYC. You can't just walk into ANY high school and register your kid. That ends for us in grade school (5th). We have a middle school application process (limited to your district, but our districts are big - this is when most kids start commuting via subway to school). And then our high school application process is citywide. You have an academic "tier" based on grades and then a RAN (random assigned number aka lottery number). You get some preference if you're SWD or ELL or are very very low income. You also have an Ed Opt category.

Some schools want essays, some schools don't look at tiers (Beacon, one of the best, is essay only), some only look at Ed Opt (so take equal high, medium, low levels of kids .. so yes, kids who get 1s on APs are in same school as some of the best students), some want a portfolio or audition. You rank your choices and then you hope to get placed in one of your top options.

If you move to NYC while your kids are in high school, you still can't just walk in and register. That's not EVER a thing. You go to a Family Welcome Center and you get placed in whatever school has seats.

So when you say "I mean nobody…no one..zero. It’s the equivalent of someone saying I send one kid in DC to Walls and the other to Anacostia High. That family doesn’t exist." that's 100% bullshit. You clearly know nothing about how the system works or who attends public school. Thousands of kids who end up in top colleges are in very strong public schools in nyc.

I was 100% correct that any person that cares about their kid sends them to an application high school that doesn’t have kids getting 1s and 2s on AP tests.

So, you agree OP is full of shit and making up their scenario, right?

Nobody is placing their kid into shitty PS 35 whatever in NYC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why it’s so hard for some of you to believe that many families send different kids to different schools with different levels of rigor. One at GDS and the other at Field? One at Walls and the other at JR? One at RMIB and the other at BCC? One at TJ and the other at … some neighborhood high school in FCPS? This sort of thing happens all the time. And even when both schools are selective, as with two privates or two magnets, it is common for one to be more selective than the other.

JR has a 65% AP pass rate. That’s not the school OP is describing.

You aren’t paying attention to the original post. Yes, people send their kids to different schools…but not one that’s great and another that’s failing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why it’s so hard for some of you to believe that many families send different kids to different schools with different levels of rigor. One at GDS and the other at Field? One at Walls and the other at JR? One at RMIB and the other at BCC? One at TJ and the other at … some neighborhood high school in FCPS? This sort of thing happens all the time. And even when both schools are selective, as with two privates or two magnets, it is common for one to be more selective than the other.

THIS. It happens all the time. I know twins who were split between Jackson Reed and Sidwell. I had this dynamic in my own house for a few years (one twin in public, one in private) but we ended up moving twin 2 to a private for high school. I know 2 other sets of twins who are split between a "Big3" private and another, lower tier private. I know at least a dozen siblings who are split by public/charter and private (some Big3, some not).

Parents choose schools by fit. They also let their kids have a say where they attend school by high school. And there really isn't a "universally best option" out there.

Is everyone dense today? It’s not about sending kids to different schools it’s sending kids to one great school and sending the other kid to a school that in OP’s words “most kids get 1s and 2s”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why it’s so hard for some of you to believe that many families send different kids to different schools with different levels of rigor. One at GDS and the other at Field? One at Walls and the other at JR? One at RMIB and the other at BCC? One at TJ and the other at … some neighborhood high school in FCPS? This sort of thing happens all the time. And even when both schools are selective, as with two privates or two magnets, it is common for one to be more selective than the other.

THIS. It happens all the time. I know twins who were split between Jackson Reed and Sidwell. I had this dynamic in my own house for a few years (one twin in public, one in private) but we ended up moving twin 2 to a private for high school. I know 2 other sets of twins who are split between a "Big3" private and another, lower tier private. I know at least a dozen siblings who are split by public/charter and private (some Big3, some not).

Parents choose schools by fit. They also let their kids have a say where they attend school by high school. And there really isn't a "universally best option" out there.

Is everyone dense today? It’s not about sending kids to different schools it’s sending kids to one great school and sending the other kid to a school that in OP’s words “most kids get 1s and 2s”.

Funny, I thought it was about “differences in rigor - AP classes.” And there’s a huge difference in rigor between a school where each AP class requires two hours of homework each night and everyone gets 5s, and a school where AP classes are only a little harder than regular classes, some kids take 5+ AP courses per year, and most kids get 3s. Fixating on the difference between a 2 and a 3 is missing the forest for the trees.

[Anonymous]

What matters for your kid is what they learn and how prepared they are.

What matters for admissions most is how your kid does compared to the rest of his class. If nearly everyone has a 4.0, that dilutes the power of the 4.0, but it also makes a GPA significantly less than 4.0 look worse. Similarly if most of the class gets 5s and yours didn't that not great, but if few get 5s and yours did, that looks good. And so on...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why it’s so hard for some of you to believe that many families send different kids to different schools with different levels of rigor. One at GDS and the other at Field? One at Walls and the other at JR? One at RMIB and the other at BCC? One at TJ and the other at … some neighborhood high school in FCPS? This sort of thing happens all the time. And even when both schools are selective, as with two privates or two magnets, it is common for one to be more selective than the other.

THIS. It happens all the time. I know twins who were split between Jackson Reed and Sidwell. I had this dynamic in my own house for a few years (one twin in public, one in private) but we ended up moving twin 2 to a private for high school. I know 2 other sets of twins who are split between a "Big3" private and another, lower tier private. I know at least a dozen siblings who are split by public/charter and private (some Big3, some not).

Parents choose schools by fit. They also let their kids have a say where they attend school by high school. And there really isn't a "universally best option" out there.

Is everyone dense today? It’s not about sending kids to different schools it’s sending kids to one great school and sending the other kid to a school that in OP’s words “most kids get 1s and 2s”.

Funny, I thought it was about “differences in rigor - AP classes.” And there’s a huge difference in rigor between a school where each AP class requires two hours of homework each night and everyone gets 5s, and a school where AP classes are only a little harder than regular classes, some kids take 5+ AP courses per year, and most kids get 3s. Fixating on the difference between a 2 and a 3 is missing the forest for the trees.

That wasn’t my point…which is OP created a fictional universe where Kid A attends a great school and they send Kid B to what sounds like a failing school.

Seems like you fell for it. Also, laughable now you think all the kids just score a 3, even though that’s also not what the stats show.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP who said "you have to choose if you are there for the education or the 4.0" is spot on.

We have friends at a W school who are taking some of the same classes on paper as DS at private, but when I've compared notes with my friends, it's like their child is taking a completely different class. What's more, the W school does not require that these kids take the AP exam, but still gives them the GPA bump. It's not fair, but at the end of the day, we choose to send our DS to a school where he is learning to study and work hard. While college admission is a bit of a crapshoot these days, we are at least confident that he will be well-prepared. DD is now at a T20 college and she's said in many ways it's easier than HS.

Whitman AP pass rate is 91% and 84% of kids take the AP test. I don’t know which W school you refer, but seems like they prepare adequately.

Agree. My DC took 11 APs at Whitman. They were great classes with engaged students. DC got mostly 5s, a couple of 4s, on the AP tests. Most kids take the test, it is expected. The exception might be for seniors who are going to Ivies or other schools who don’t accept AP credits so they opt out of senior year AP tests (although even then those kids tended to take the tests).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP who said "you have to choose if you are there for the education or the 4.0" is spot on.

We have friends at a W school who are taking some of the same classes on paper as DS at private, but when I've compared notes with my friends, it's like their child is taking a completely different class. What's more, the W school does not require that these kids take the AP exam, but still gives them the GPA bump. It's not fair, but at the end of the day, we choose to send our DS to a school where he is learning to study and work hard. While college admission is a bit of a crapshoot these days, we are at least confident that he will be well-prepared. DD is now at a T20 college and she's said in many ways it's easier than HS.

Whitman AP pass rate is 91% and 84% of kids take the AP test. I don’t know which W school you refer, but seems like they prepare adequately.

Agree. My DC took 11 APs at Whitman. They were great classes with engaged students. DC got mostly 5s, a couple of 4s, on the AP tests. Most kids take the test, it is expected. The exception might be for seniors who are going to Ivies or other schools who don’t accept AP credits so they opt out of senior year AP tests (although even then those kids tended to take the tests).

Correct…if you are a senior and know your college doesn’t accept the score, you likely won’t take the test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why it’s so hard for some of you to believe that many families send different kids to different schools with different levels of rigor. One at GDS and the other at Field? One at Walls and the other at JR? One at RMIB and the other at BCC? One at TJ and the other at … some neighborhood high school in FCPS? This sort of thing happens all the time. And even when both schools are selective, as with two privates or two magnets, it is common for one to be more selective than the other.

THIS. It happens all the time. I know twins who were split between Jackson Reed and Sidwell. I had this dynamic in my own house for a few years (one twin in public, one in private) but we ended up moving twin 2 to a private for high school. I know 2 other sets of twins who are split between a "Big3" private and another, lower tier private. I know at least a dozen siblings who are split by public/charter and private (some Big3, some not).

Parents choose schools by fit. They also let their kids have a say where they attend school by high school. And there really isn't a "universally best option" out there.

Is everyone dense today? It’s not about sending kids to different schools it’s sending kids to one great school and sending the other kid to a school that in OP’s words “most kids get 1s and 2s”.

well that would be the Jackson Reed and private split and there are a ton of parents who do that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why it’s so hard for some of you to believe that many families send different kids to different schools with different levels of rigor. One at GDS and the other at Field? One at Walls and the other at JR? One at RMIB and the other at BCC? One at TJ and the other at … some neighborhood high school in FCPS? This sort of thing happens all the time. And even when both schools are selective, as with two privates or two magnets, it is common for one to be more selective than the other.

THIS. It happens all the time. I know twins who were split between Jackson Reed and Sidwell. I had this dynamic in my own house for a few years (one twin in public, one in private) but we ended up moving twin 2 to a private for high school. I know 2 other sets of twins who are split between a "Big3" private and another, lower tier private. I know at least a dozen siblings who are split by public/charter and private (some Big3, some not).

Parents choose schools by fit. They also let their kids have a say where they attend school by high school. And there really isn't a "universally best option" out there.

Is everyone dense today? It’s not about sending kids to different schools it’s sending kids to one great school and sending the other kid to a school that in OP’s words “most kids get 1s and 2s”.

well that would be the Jackson Reed and private split and there are a ton of parents who do that.

No it isn’t. Most JR kids get a 3 or above (with more 4s and 5s than 3s).

So why would you post an outright lie?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why it’s so hard for some of you to believe that many families send different kids to different schools with different levels of rigor. One at GDS and the other at Field? One at Walls and the other at JR? One at RMIB and the other at BCC? One at TJ and the other at … some neighborhood high school in FCPS? This sort of thing happens all the time. And even when both schools are selective, as with two privates or two magnets, it is common for one to be more selective than the other.

THIS. It happens all the time. I know twins who were split between Jackson Reed and Sidwell. I had this dynamic in my own house for a few years (one twin in public, one in private) but we ended up moving twin 2 to a private for high school. I know 2 other sets of twins who are split between a "Big3" private and another, lower tier private. I know at least a dozen siblings who are split by public/charter and private (some Big3, some not).

Parents choose schools by fit. They also let their kids have a say where they attend school by high school. And there really isn't a "universally best option" out there.

Is everyone dense today? It’s not about sending kids to different schools it’s sending kids to one great school and sending the other kid to a school that in OP’s words “most kids get 1s and 2s”.

well that would be the Jackson Reed and private split and there are a ton of parents who do that.

No it isn’t. Most JR kids get a 3 or above (with more 4s and 5s than 3s).

So why would you post an outright lie?

Most JR kids get a 3+ on at least one AP. But that “most” includes a kid who takes five APs and scores 1, 2, 2, 2, 3.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is at a Catholic HS. Everyone gets 4s or 5s.

My kids have gotten all 5s on their AP exams. They take 1 AP soph, year and then 4 Jr and 4 Sr year.9 total. Have honors courses too.

They don't have the mountains of work--but it is still rigorous that you describe in your first scenario.

And it depends upon the kid and the AP course.

My kid avoided APUSH/AP Eng because they know those would be extremely time consuming. While they could do it and get a 4/5, they didn't want to spend so much time for one course to do well. So they took 4 STEM courses (or 3 plus AP Psych). For them AP Chem and AP Physics and AP Calc AB and AP CS and AP Bio did NOT require much extra time. They didn't have to study much it was just the next natural progression for them after precalc and regular chem and physics and Biology (required at our HS). They got 5s in all of them, so the material was learned. Other kids thought they took more effort, but for my kid they had yet to need to study for a science or math course and that didn't change until Calc BC. There the teacher taught to really prepare them, and everyone typically gets 5s (in 10+ years of teaching it, 99% of kids have gotten 5s, and the rest 4s, only a few 3s over the years).

There is SO much depending on the teacher in the above examples. Not every school is the same in terms of workload per week, even if the course name is the same on transcript.