Is it time to end the 50% rule in math?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think we need to get rid of the 50% rule and go to a traditional grading system. This means that all work is GRADED (not just checked for completeness). A multitude of grades helps to keep kids average from plummeting from a bad score. If this isn’t enough, I support extra credit opportunities where students can do extra work for extra credit. This provides both extra practice to help struggling students and inspiration for advanced students. Retests should not be given as a matter of course, but I support allowing some extra credit for completing corrections. Final exams should be reinstated. Finals provide an incentive for students to study for mastery and not just to remember something long enough to get through a test. It also allows assessment (at least at one specific moment of time) of how much course content a student is able to use. (As an aside, one of the most effective teaching strategies I personally experienced was in my Algebra class where the teacher gave us a very short daily quiz that could be taken from any material covered in the course. It was like a daily miniature final. I don’t necessarily think it should be instituted in every class, but it vividly illustrated the value of holding students accountable, at some point, for all material covered in a course.)

I think calculators should be forbidden for all math below high school level. Students need to develop not only the skills to solve problems without calculators, but also a sense of what type of answers should be expected. If is too easy to rely on calculators and not register that an error in keying a problem could give you an incorrect answer. All kids should know their basic facts. Any attention that has to be diverted to strategies to determine a basic sum/difference of product/quotient means less to focus on solving a problem which may require concentration to incorporate new concepts or to use advanced reasoning to determine and carry out a correct strategy.

I think kids should have textbooks and that parents should be able to see their tests. Textbooks will help the child learn the material, will let parents help their children as necessary, and will let the parents see if the approach being taught actually makes sense. If the curriculum is flawed, parents will be able to see the weaknesses and try to get things changed instead of waiting years for the possibility of a curriculum audit to reveal that thousands of children were ill served by a bad curriculum.

I think there should be flexible ability grouping (not tracking) in elementary school. Unless you’re going to completely ignore on-level and advanced students, any time spent on their instruction takes away from time and attention that could be focused on helping struggling students. Meanwhile, those on-level and advanced students certainly aren’t reaching their potential. Flexible ability grouping would allow all students to be taught at their approximate level, maximizing the effectiveness of instruction. Here’s an article describing the effective use of flexible ability grouping in MCPS. We allow older students to take basic, honors, AP/IB levels of classes, and to switch back and forth (If a student does well in Algebra, they might try Honors Geometry, or if a student struggles with Honors Geometry, they might want to take the basic level of Algebra 2 the next year, or even drop down to the basic level of Geometry). We allow some leeway for students to start advanced math (beginning with Algebra) based on their readiness. We recognize with older students that at any given time, students will have different levels of interest and ability. We need to acknowledge that pre-algebra, they’re not identical clones that should be treated the same, but individuals who would benefit from having a full class taught at their level to help them progress to the next level.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/03/AR2007110301167.html?sid=ST2007110301386

You want to assess whether the curriculum is flawed? And your qualifications and experience in this area are....?

[Anonymous]

It's done for equity reasons. Too many kids of certain groups were failing the grade because they weren't passing certain classes. This helps them move forward.

I think it's highly unlikely MCPS will change this, considering the expected results regarding equity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Private school parent here. Our school doesn't allow students to advance if they don't master the previous course. Hence, after a year of virtual learning during covid, most students who were doing Algebra I in 7th grade had to repeat it in 8th grade. Luckily we entered the school in HS and my daughter (who was in person entire 20-21 school year) tested into Algebra 2 for 9th grade while most 9th graders are doing geometry. She's doing great, but is only one of two 9th graders in her class. What's great is the class is rigorous and not dumbed down to accommodate other 9th graders who didn't master previous material.

Public schools used to be so good with math, but I fear those days are ending. My older child did MCPS through 8th grade years ago and had an excellent preparation for HS math.

Yawn, you keep posting about your private school the has no relevance to MCPS. Many kids did just fine in Algebra virtually, like mine. Maybe there is an issue with your private school if your child had to repeat a class. Or, why didn't you help them or get a tutor or have them do a summer prep or review class? Algebra 2 is nothing to brag about in 9th. Some of our kids are doing Algebra 2 in 8th.

I didn't say my kid had to repeat. I said the kids who were in this particular school for middle school had to repeat. My daughter was in person in another school for middle school and enrolled in this school for 9th. They did the right thing. Kids who aren't prepared for the material will only hold back those who are.

You are correct--SOME students do Alg. 2 in 8th, but it is very rare...especially now that kids are so far behind in math. I guess you haven't been reading all the stories about the horrendous test scores. Yes, some kids are fine and maybe yours is fine, but the majority ARE NOT FINE. MCPS just pushes kids through regardless of whether or not they have mastered material. We all know this.

You claim MANY kids did just find virtually in Algebra I...what does many mean? It should be most, not many. If not, then the kids who didn't do ok should repeat Alg. I so they don't hold back the kids who are actually well prepared for Alg. II.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's done for equity reasons. Too many kids of certain groups were failing the grade because they weren't passing certain classes. This helps them move forward.

I think it's highly unlikely MCPS will change this, considering the expected results regarding equity.

Equity is going to pull down everyone. It's inevitable. Pull your kids out of public now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Private school parent here. Our school doesn't allow students to advance if they don't master the previous course. Hence, after a year of virtual learning during covid, most students who were doing Algebra I in 7th grade had to repeat it in 8th grade. Luckily we entered the school in HS and my daughter (who was in person entire 20-21 school year) tested into Algebra 2 for 9th grade while most 9th graders are doing geometry. She's doing great, but is only one of two 9th graders in her class. What's great is the class is rigorous and not dumbed down to accommodate other 9th graders who didn't master previous material.

Public schools used to be so good with math, but I fear those days are ending. My older child did MCPS through 8th grade years ago and had an excellent preparation for HS math.

Yawn, you keep posting about your private school the has no relevance to MCPS. Many kids did just fine in Algebra virtually, like mine. Maybe there is an issue with your private school if your child had to repeat a class. Or, why didn't you help them or get a tutor or have them do a summer prep or review class? Algebra 2 is nothing to brag about in 9th. Some of our kids are doing Algebra 2 in 8th.

I didn't say my kid had to repeat. I said the kids who were in this particular school for middle school had to repeat. My daughter was in person in another school for middle school and enrolled in this school for 9th. They did the right thing. Kids who aren't prepared for the material will only hold back those who are.

You are correct--SOME students do Alg. 2 in 8th, but it is very rare...especially now that kids are so far behind in math. I guess you haven't been reading all the stories about the horrendous test scores. Yes, some kids are fine and maybe yours is fine, but the majority ARE NOT FINE. MCPS just pushes kids through regardless of whether or not they have mastered material. We all know this.

You claim MANY kids did just find virtually in Algebra I...what does many mean? It should be most, not many. If not, then the kids who didn't do ok should repeat Alg. I so they don't hold back the kids who are actually well prepared for Alg. II.

You should question how well your private is doing if that many kids need to repeat.

The majority of kids are fine. The real issue for MCPS is the teaching style, lack of textbook and curriculum and lack of reinforcement via homework and classwork and the little they have is never reviewed in class. However, MCPS has offered free tutoring for two years both in person and virtually and has been back in person for two years so blaming covid/virtual at this point is silly.

Your private clearly isn't that good or taking the cream of the crop of students if some of our kids are far more advanced in math and doing better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's done for equity reasons. Too many kids of certain groups were failing the grade because they weren't passing certain classes. This helps them move forward.

I think it's highly unlikely MCPS will change this, considering the expected results regarding equity.

Your equity argument is getting tired. When all you have is a hammer...

Source?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we need to get rid of the 50% rule and go to a traditional grading system. This means that all work is GRADED (not just checked for completeness). A multitude of grades helps to keep kids average from plummeting from a bad score. If this isn’t enough, I support extra credit opportunities where students can do extra work for extra credit. This provides both extra practice to help struggling students and inspiration for advanced students. Retests should not be given as a matter of course, but I support allowing some extra credit for completing corrections. Final exams should be reinstated. Finals provide an incentive for students to study for mastery and not just to remember something long enough to get through a test. It also allows assessment (at least at one specific moment of time) of how much course content a student is able to use. (As an aside, one of the most effective teaching strategies I personally experienced was in my Algebra class where the teacher gave us a very short daily quiz that could be taken from any material covered in the course. It was like a daily miniature final. I don’t necessarily think it should be instituted in every class, but it vividly illustrated the value of holding students accountable, at some point, for all material covered in a course.)

I think calculators should be forbidden for all math below high school level. Students need to develop not only the skills to solve problems without calculators, but also a sense of what type of answers should be expected. If is too easy to rely on calculators and not register that an error in keying a problem could give you an incorrect answer. All kids should know their basic facts. Any attention that has to be diverted to strategies to determine a basic sum/difference of product/quotient means less to focus on solving a problem which may require concentration to incorporate new concepts or to use advanced reasoning to determine and carry out a correct strategy.

I think kids should have textbooks and that parents should be able to see their tests. Textbooks will help the child learn the material, will let parents help their children as necessary, and will let the parents see if the approach being taught actually makes sense. If the curriculum is flawed, parents will be able to see the weaknesses and try to get things changed instead of waiting years for the possibility of a curriculum audit to reveal that thousands of children were ill served by a bad curriculum.

I think there should be flexible ability grouping (not tracking) in elementary school. Unless you’re going to completely ignore on-level and advanced students, any time spent on their instruction takes away from time and attention that could be focused on helping struggling students. Meanwhile, those on-level and advanced students certainly aren’t reaching their potential. Flexible ability grouping would allow all students to be taught at their approximate level, maximizing the effectiveness of instruction. Here’s an article describing the effective use of flexible ability grouping in MCPS. We allow older students to take basic, honors, AP/IB levels of classes, and to switch back and forth (If a student does well in Algebra, they might try Honors Geometry, or if a student struggles with Honors Geometry, they might want to take the basic level of Algebra 2 the next year, or even drop down to the basic level of Geometry). We allow some leeway for students to start advanced math (beginning with Algebra) based on their readiness. We recognize with older students that at any given time, students will have different levels of interest and ability. We need to acknowledge that pre-algebra, they’re not identical clones that should be treated the same, but individuals who would benefit from having a full class taught at their level to help them progress to the next level.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/03/AR2007110301167.html?sid=ST2007110301386

You want to assess whether the curriculum is flawed? And your qualifications and experience in this area are....?

pp here

I never said that I personally wanted to assess whether the curriculum was flawed, nor did I claim any qualifications for such a task. However, I think all parents should be able to freely access the curriculum and see what their kids are being taught, and how it is being taught. Hopefully, this would allow parents to recognize problems even without a curriculum audit, as has happened in other districts. For example:
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-12-19-mn-15657-story.html

https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2009/04/15/school-stakeholders-clash-over-math

https://www.wral.com/amp/emotions-flare-as-wake-school-board-defends-controversial-mvp-math-program/18459805/

http://www.mathematicallycorrect.com/nychold.htm

I think the point here is not that an individual should appoint themselves a curriculum czar, but that there should be openness. Regardless of how good something is, there will probably be some who object, and no matter how bad something is, some people won’t care. However, if the curriculum is easily accessible and good, naysayers won’t be able to gain traction and it will probably gain support. However, if a bad curriculum is easily accessible, people can recognize a problem and try to get it redressed while the damage can be limited.

Let the curriculum experts make their selections according to their best judgement (preferably with some community involvement), but using the parent population to crowdsource a quality control safety valve only makes sense. If there is a problem, why should we hide it? Here’s an article describing problems the curriculum audit found with the MCPS curriculum 5 years after it was implemented in some grades. Moreover, it replaced another MCPS proprietary curriculum, which wasn’t audited, presumably with the assumption that 2.0 was better. I have no idea what predated that curriculum. It’s hard to know how many students were subjected to a bad curriculum over how many years, or what flaws their curriculum had, because access was limited. Without access to the curriculum, it’s hard to recognize there’s a problem, especially when grading practices obfuscate the evidence. Nonetheless, most parents are satisfied with reassurances that “MCPS is one of the best school systems in the country”, because MCPS is very open about spreading PR.

https://moco360.media/2018/03/26/mcps-launches-effort-to-find-new-curriculum-after-report-finds-flaws-in-existing-materials/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's done for equity reasons. Too many kids of certain groups were failing the grade because they weren't passing certain classes. This helps them move forward.

I think it's highly unlikely MCPS will change this, considering the expected results regarding equity.

Your equity argument is getting tired. When all you have is a hammer...

Source?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/10/30/standards-based-grading-teacher-pushback/

"A national effort to foster equity by easing grading..."

I agree with OP we should get rid of the 50% rule, but I just don't think MCPS will do so, and "equity" is why.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here’s the problem: the most important years in a child’s education are k-5. Yet, the lower third of every college graduating class go into teaching (if they go into elementary education at all). See the issue?

This is a long standing problem. In order to attract higher caliber students to education programs, teacher pay needs to be raised which just isn't happening. If you raise pay, then likely more higher achieving kids will want to study education in college.

[Anonymous]

I love how MCPS is more concerned about content mastery than these silly numbers. I feel my kids are getting the MOST out of school because MCPS motivates them to retake tests once in a while to ensure they have true mastery of a subject. People obsessed with those who are failing are looking at this all wrong. There's only so much you can do for kids who aren't interested in learning or are just not all that bright.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Dump the 50% rule as well as the limit on the number of assignments a teacher can give. Only allowing 8-12 practice (homework) assignments per quarter is destroying competence and academic self-confidence. The current system is a disaster.

Any idea why a limit was placed on the number of practice and all task assignments?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Dump the 50% rule as well as the limit on the number of assignments a teacher can give. Only allowing 8-12 practice (homework) assignments per quarter is destroying competence and academic self-confidence. The current system is a disaster.

The kids who likely take advantage of this are struggling so why begrudge them this? My children had scores in the high 90s in all their classes so it was never an issue for us. If they changed it, it would have 0 impacts on us. I don't feel it really matters. I wish the school would grasp that not everyone has the same values and goals. Maybe they would provide different paths instead of all this "Honors for all" nonsense.5

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s the problem: the most important years in a child’s education are k-5. Yet, the lower third of every college graduating class go into teaching (if they go into elementary education at all). See the issue?

This is a long standing problem. In order to attract higher caliber students to education programs, teacher pay needs to be raised which just isn't happening. If you raise pay, then likely more higher achieving kids will want to study education in college.

MCPS teachers who are on a 10-month schedule (don't have to work 2 months/year) start at $54,038 and go up to $118,814 with experience:
https://www2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/district/departments/ersc/employees/pay/schedules/salary_schedule_current.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s the problem: the most important years in a child’s education are k-5. Yet, the lower third of every college graduating class go into teaching (if they go into elementary education at all). See the issue?

This is a long standing problem. In order to attract higher caliber students to education programs, teacher pay needs to be raised which just isn't happening. If you raise pay, then likely more higher achieving kids will want to study education in college.

MCPS teachers who are on a 10-month schedule (don't have to work 2 months/year) start at $54,038 and go up to $118,814 with experience:
https://www2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/district/departments/ersc/employees/pay/schedules/salary_schedule_current.pdf

And there's a reason many teachers live in Frederick Co.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s the problem: the most important years in a child’s education are k-5. Yet, the lower third of every college graduating class go into teaching (if they go into elementary education at all). See the issue?

This is a long standing problem. In order to attract higher caliber students to education programs, teacher pay needs to be raised which just isn't happening. If you raise pay, then likely more higher achieving kids will want to study education in college.

MCPS teachers who are on a 10-month schedule (don't have to work 2 months/year) start at $54,038 and go up to $118,814 with experience:
https://www2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/district/departments/ersc/employees/pay/schedules/salary_schedule_current.pdf

Ok now work out a budget for this new teacher who lives in MoCo and has 7% taken out automatically for a pension they may never vest in, who buys her own classroom supplies, etc.

Now do it for the married couple, both teachers, who are on year 10 and paying daycare expenses in MoCo.