Is getting a college degree just a huge scam?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The belief that most kids should go to college is a scam, yes.

I live and teach high school in Germany. Fewer than half of German high school students go to university because many people aren't suited to higher academic work and quality of university standards needs to be consistent across the country. Society needs and values people in the trades, like plumbers, electricians, hair stylists, etc, so there are appropriate specialised high schools where students best suited to those fields can receive training and apprenticeship support to successfully enter their chosen fields. We don't look down on the trades or try to encourage a child who isn't academic to struggle and strive for university at all costs with no backup plan here.

America has made university a business and everyone is catching on that US universities are not consistent in quality and weaker students who don't belong in university just pay to attend weaker universities. This is why university costs a fortune in America and is free in Germany.

I'm not familiar with Germany but assume it provides more of the social safety nets we lack. I come from a working class family in a working class neighborhood and those jobs are great. But they are often very physically hard on people, so much so they can't expect to work 30 years in a trade like we do at our white collar desk jobs. So the carpet layer whose knees go out by the time he's 40 and can't perform that same work can be in trouble. Social Security doesn't start til 62 and that's a reduced benefit. What does he do for 22 more years? If we had true universal health care (so perhaps he could get knee replacements), real paid time off, and a solid pension, skilled trade work would boom.

[Anonymous]

My college degree (from a public university, in-state, with a scholarship so I graduated totally debt free) was not a scam. It was great.

My law degree was 100% a scam. Still paying it off almost 20 years later. It boosted my salary earning but has not offset the financial investment plus opportunity costs. Law school meant I didn't really start earning money until my late 20s. And I didn't get a gig in Big Law, so those first few years, I really wasn't saving a lot. My income ramped up in my 30s, but I also had to scale back a bit when my kids were born for a few years (yes, had to -- I had medical issues related to my pregnancies, plus PPD). It wasn't this consistent trajectory. Also, while I used my degree to get my current job, I don't actually practice law anymore and could definitely do my job without the law degree. The skills I used most now are management/leadership skills (which I received zero training for in law school) and research and writing skills that I learned in college (I don't do legal writing). When I make my loan payment these days, it feels like just throwing money away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I learned a ton and it lifted me out of abject poverty. It taught me the skills to perform and land a lucrative career. College changed my life trajectory.

Nobody said it doesn’t but could you have done that by moving to the same job take 1/2 the classes and work.

It wasn’t “college” that did that.

Plus how much did college cost you?

Right now it costs anywhere from $100K-$300K

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The belief that most kids should go to college is a scam, yes.

I live and teach high school in Germany. Fewer than half of German high school students go to university because many people aren't suited to higher academic work and quality of university standards needs to be consistent across the country. Society needs and values people in the trades, like plumbers, electricians, hair stylists, etc, so there are appropriate specialised high schools where students best suited to those fields can receive training and apprenticeship support to successfully enter their chosen fields. We don't look down on the trades or try to encourage a child who isn't academic to struggle and strive for university at all costs with no backup plan here.

America has made university a business and everyone is catching on that US universities are not consistent in quality and weaker students who don't belong in university just pay to attend weaker universities. This is why university costs a fortune in America and is free in Germany.

I'm not familiar with Germany but assume it provides more of the social safety nets we lack. I come from a working class family in a working class neighborhood and those jobs are great. But they are often very physically hard on people, so much so they can't expect to work 30 years in a trade like we do at our white collar desk jobs. So the carpet layer whose knees go out by the time he's 40 and can't perform that same work can be in trouble. Social Security doesn't start til 62 and that's a reduced benefit. What does he do for 22 more years? If we had true universal health care (so perhaps he could get knee replacements), real paid time off, and a solid pension, skilled trade work would boom.

So it isn't true that in America one needs a BA degree for many jobs that didn't require this in the near past, or that many people waiting tables or similar have university degrees they will be paying for years and years of their lives? And that many Americans are bankrupted by student loans because they were led to get expensive university degrees that don't enable a job that pays enough to return the money?

I don't think sending non-academic kids to less academic universities created just for them is helping anybody in the end.

[Anonymous]

Colleges DEFINITELY purposely entice hopefuls they know they will never admit to boost their acceptance prestige (e.g., we are so selective only 11% of those who apply get in; psst--up the number of those who apply to make this number better!). If your life goal is to become a "tenured" professor however, it is for you. That level of guaranteed employment encourages incompetence. That is why online courseware, certifications, bootcamps, skillcraft, training, or pre-aligned colleges have a much higher ROI for employers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The belief that most kids should go to college is a scam, yes.

I live and teach high school in Germany. Fewer than half of German high school students go to university because many people aren't suited to higher academic work and quality of university standards needs to be consistent across the country. Society needs and values people in the trades, like plumbers, electricians, hair stylists, etc, so there are appropriate specialised high schools where students best suited to those fields can receive training and apprenticeship support to successfully enter their chosen fields. We don't look down on the trades or try to encourage a child who isn't academic to struggle and strive for university at all costs with no backup plan here.

America has made university a business and everyone is catching on that US universities are not consistent in quality and weaker students who don't belong in university just pay to attend weaker universities. This is why university costs a fortune in America and is free in Germany.

Lots of good observations in here.

But one of the biggest ones is the way Americans value jobs and professions. Because we are hyper-capitalist, we value jobs according to how much they pay. Jobs that pay the most are valued the most, not just by the people in those jobs but by everyone. We assume lawyers, people in finance, doctors, etc. are better and more important people because they get paid a lot of money. And thus we assume people working low-wage work are less worthwhile because they are doing low-wage work.

So everyone wants to go to college here because the highest paid jobs generally require higher education (most exceptions involve work that is either dangerous or very inconvenient). People look down on those without college degrees or people who do trade work because it's lower paid. There is little general appreciation for the idea that in order for society to function, we need people in all different roles. And then of course there is almost no social safety net to help ensure that people working in lower paid trade jobs still have a a good standard of living. All these decisions feed each other. It's a cultural issue.

If we had cultural values beyond money, it would be easier to see this. But at this point money an the pursuit of money is our most fundamental national principle.

[Anonymous]

A high school diploma doesn't qualify you for any kind of career. Careers are all specialized and require education.
Even trades like plumbing are only available at community colleges
So tell me, what career is available to a person with just a high school?
And let us assume we are taking about the kind of work where you can support yourself and a family without requiring some kind of assistance

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The belief that most kids should go to college is a scam, yes.

I live and teach high school in Germany. Fewer than half of German high school students go to university because many people aren't suited to higher academic work and quality of university standards needs to be consistent across the country. Society needs and values people in the trades, like plumbers, electricians, hair stylists, etc, so there are appropriate specialised high schools where students best suited to those fields can receive training and apprenticeship support to successfully enter their chosen fields. We don't look down on the trades or try to encourage a child who isn't academic to struggle and strive for university at all costs with no backup plan here.

America has made university a business and everyone is catching on that US universities are not consistent in quality and weaker students who don't belong in university just pay to attend weaker universities. This is why university costs a fortune in America and is free in Germany.

Lots of good observations in here.

But one of the biggest ones is the way Americans value jobs and professions. Because we are hyper-capitalist, we value jobs according to how much they pay. Jobs that pay the most are valued the most, not just by the people in those jobs but by everyone. We assume lawyers, people in finance, doctors, etc. are better and more important people because they get paid a lot of money. And thus we assume people working low-wage work are less worthwhile because they are doing low-wage work.

So everyone wants to go to college here because the highest paid jobs generally require higher education (most exceptions involve work that is either dangerous or very inconvenient). People look down on those without college degrees or people who do trade work because it's lower paid. There is little general appreciation for the idea that in order for society to function, we need people in all different roles. And then of course there is almost no social safety net to help ensure that people working in lower paid trade jobs still have a a good standard of living. All these decisions feed each other. It's a cultural issue.

If we had cultural values beyond money, it would be easier to see this. But at this point money an the pursuit of money is our most fundamental national principle.

That's probably why America doesn't provide good health care for everyone. Only those with 'good' jobs deserve treatment and good care.

[Anonymous]

I think about this a ton given the astronomical prices. I don't think college is a total scam. I think the focus on select brand names obscures the goal of finding the right fit and leads a ton of families to overpay.

I see value in paying for any/all of the things college can provide - rigorous higher education, pre-professional training, opportunities to intern, a soft launch to adult independence, study abroad, etc etc.

But I can't square myself with the actual cost at many of these schools. I'm inclined to encourage my DD to get out of the rat race and go to a local state school campus and I'll give her a cash gift of would-be college savings as a grad gift.

[Anonymous]

My masters immediately tripled my salary compared to my bachelors. Both from state flagships (different states). 7 years later and my salary has tripled from that first post-grad job and I work about half as hard.

Flagship school #1 was $12k/year and my scholarships brought it down to about $4k. I worked to pay for rent and living expenses. My dad was able to contribute about $12k over the 4 years, leaving me with $4k in loans. I paid that off in the 3 years after graduation, before starting grad school. I finished grad school with no debt because I had an assistantship and paid the fees in cash each semester. I am one of the few millennials I know that was relatively free of student debt, but only because I prioritized making that a reality for myself.

I hope my kids go to trade school and get started in their careers years before I did. I’ve had to play catch up in getting retirement savings started since I was in school until I was 26. My first company did not match for 401(k) and second company offers no retirement planning at all, so it’s been something I’m actively managing and working on.

[Anonymous]

Education isn't just a vocational undertaking. We want plumbers, sure. But we also want citizens. We want people who know how to live life with a sense of purpose and meaning.

Paying $30k/year to learn how to make widgets isn't really the best investment. But if you find a place that helps you land a higher paying job and teaches you what you need to know to be a more complete person, then it's a good investment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think about this a ton given the astronomical prices. I don't think college is a total scam. I think the focus on select brand names obscures the goal of finding the right fit and leads a ton of families to overpay.

I see value in paying for any/all of the things college can provide - rigorous higher education, pre-professional training, opportunities to intern, a soft launch to adult independence, study abroad, etc etc.

But I can't square myself with the actual cost at many of these schools. I'm inclined to encourage my DD to get out of the rat race and go to a local state school campus and I'll give her a cash gift of would-be college savings as a grad gift.

Your poor daughter

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My masters immediately tripled my salary compared to my bachelors. Both from state flagships (different states). 7 years later and my salary has tripled from that first post-grad job and I work about half as hard.

Flagship school #1 was $12k/year and my scholarships brought it down to about $4k. I worked to pay for rent and living expenses. My dad was able to contribute about $12k over the 4 years, leaving me with $4k in loans. I paid that off in the 3 years after graduation, before starting grad school. I finished grad school with no debt because I had an assistantship and paid the fees in cash each semester. I am one of the few millennials I know that was relatively free of student debt, but only because I prioritized making that a reality for myself.

I hope my kids go to trade school and get started in their careers years before I did. I’ve had to play catch up in getting retirement savings started since I was in school until I was 26. My first company did not match for 401(k) and second company offers no retirement planning at all, so it’s been something I’m actively managing and working on.

What was your masters in and what industry did you end up working in?

[Anonymous]

It’s a scam in some ways, but holy hell, has this pandemic highlighted what poor critical thinking skills many Americans have. No, one could argue those should be better taught in primary and secondary education, and I don’t disagree. But higher education absolutely serves an important role in society.

It would be great if we had more of the German model of strong apprenticeship programs and valued the trades more. But that requires (1) kids to get tracked early in life and (2) a social safety net that the US utterly lacks, and probably will never have. So…? I don’t know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think about this a ton given the astronomical prices. I don't think college is a total scam. I think the focus on select brand names obscures the goal of finding the right fit and leads a ton of families to overpay.

I see value in paying for any/all of the things college can provide - rigorous higher education, pre-professional training, opportunities to intern, a soft launch to adult independence, study abroad, etc etc.

But I can't square myself with the actual cost at many of these schools. I'm inclined to encourage my DD to get out of the rat race and go to a local state school campus and I'll give her a cash gift of would-be college savings as a grad gift.

Your poor daughter

I’m doing the same thing.

I’m willing to pay $40K/year.

One son took the brand name and will come out with debt, my other son took the state school and will come out with a $50K bonus.