Midwife charged in DC? Karen Carr, CPM...

[Anonymous]

re: to the PP who thinks karma is going to bite us all in the arse for having an opinion about this issue - listen up!

Many of us have not judged the parents in this situation. Granted, some people on this thread do not think homebirth is the safest option (and especially in the case of a breech baby), but I have not heard rumblings of "it's the mom's fault, etc. etc.". I think people are generally interested in understanding what really went on. Many of us (myself included) are pregnant and have even considered hiring KC to attend our births. Why are we cruel/mean, etc. for wanting to know more about the case and understanding the type of practitioner KC is?

The overwhelming tone of this thread is arguing the benefits of homebirth vs. hospital birth, epidural vs. NCB, intervention vs. none, educational levels of midwives, etc. etc. The other major component of this conversation is whether or not a midwife who was very publically arrested and who has now pled guilty to two felonies is in fact negligent for what occured during this birth.

How does this make me an evil person? For wanting more information? For wanting facts to help decide where the best environment to birth my baby is? If so, we'll honestly, screw you, because I don't think I'm a bad person nor should I STOP asking questions about the birth process. This case has helped inform my decision NOT to pursue a homebirth because I am not a low-risk candidate. It has helped me realize that I am willing to trade my vision of the birth "I" want for what is best for "us". Again, if this somehow makes me a jerk, we'll I'm sorry you feel that way, but I don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Back a few pages, there is a description of the mom as being knowledgeable about the risks associated with this. But then on that Birth Care review, the mom seems to be blaming everyone and saying that no one told her the risks. So which is it? Is that for sure her review?

That original review/post was taken down on City Search, presumably at the request of the author.

The City Search review was a rant from a grieving mother. As the case became more and more public, the parents requested its removal due to some of the inaccuracies and misrepresentations which were written in it.

The event last Thursday was not a trial. It was a pre-trial hearing, during which a plea agreement was offered and accepted by Karen Carr. Three felony charges were removed, while two remained but did not come with any jail time. Karen accepted the plea in order to know for certain that she wouldn't serve any more jail time.

I personally think this thread is fraught with speculation and rumor, and therefore does not necessarily provide the most accurate picture of what type of practitioner KC is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Nobody serves women in order to harm them and no mother willingly puts her child in harms way. Intention matters. I know, I know it happens, but mostly not, and certainly not in this case.

The discussions here have been very very important.

The blame game has been sickening.

Let's work on fixing the system.

Isn't the consistent bashing of medicalized childbirth on this thread akin to equating OBs that serve women with individuals who force interventions on women and babies, which ultimately, harms them? Incredulous! Why shouldn't midwives be subject to the same judgement as other providers when they have a poor outcome? While I do not doubt that ANY provider (OB or midwife) wants to harm women, why is it that these comments are reserved only to defend a midwife's intention, but not a doctor's? We have to be well-rounded here people or risk like looking one-sided in our very sage and pertinent argument. The system will remain broken until both sides can work together.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Nobody serves women in order to harm them and no mother willingly puts her child in harms way. Intention matters. I know, I know it happens, but mostly not, and certainly not in this case.

The discussions here have been very very important.

The blame game has been sickening.

Let's work on fixing the system.

Isn't the consistent bashing of medicalized childbirth on this thread akin to equating OBs that serve women with individuals who force interventions on women and babies, which ultimately, harms them? Incredulous! Why shouldn't midwives be subject to the same judgement as other providers when they have a poor outcome? While I do not doubt that ANY provider (OB or midwife) wants to harm women, why is it that these comments are reserved only to defend a midwife's intention, but not a doctor's? We have to be well-rounded here people or risk like looking one-sided in our very sage and pertinent argument. The system will remain broken until both sides can work together.

LIKE++++

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Nobody serves women in order to harm them and no mother willingly puts her child in harms way. Intention matters. I know, I know it happens, but mostly not, and certainly not in this case.

The discussions here have been very very important.

The blame game has been sickening.

Let's work on fixing the system.

Isn't the consistent bashing of medicalized childbirth on this thread akin to equating OBs that serve women with individuals who force interventions on women and babies, which ultimately, harms them? Incredulous! Why shouldn't midwives be subject to the same judgement as other providers when they have a poor outcome? While I do not doubt that ANY provider (OB or midwife) wants to harm women, why is it that these comments are reserved only to defend a midwife's intention, but not a doctor's? We have to be well-rounded here people or risk like looking one-sided in our very sage and pertinent argument. The system will remain broken until both sides can work together.

The author of the post you quoted used the word "Nobody"...not "midwife"; therefore, it is logical to conclude that she/he was not limiting his/her comments to midwives.

I agree...both sides DO need to work together. However, let's be honest....the VAST majority of the blame lies within the "medical" side of the equation. OBs and medical lobbying groups have spent a LOT of time and money fighting against DEM/midwifery. Yes, there are some OBs who see the value of DEMs/midwifery. Unfortunately, they are the minority. It would be nice for a Mama to feel comfort in knowing that she will with certainty be treated with the respect that all Mamas deserve should the need to transfer to a hospital from a homebirth arise. Again, that is sadly not the case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:re: to the PP who thinks karma is going to bite us all in the arse for having an opinion about this issue - listen up!

Many of us have not judged the parents in this situation. Granted, some people on this thread do not think homebirth is the safest option (and especially in the case of a breech baby), but I have not heard rumblings of "it's the mom's fault, etc. etc.". I think people are generally interested in understanding what really went on. Many of us (myself included) are pregnant and have even considered hiring KC to attend our births. Why are we cruel/mean, etc. for wanting to know more about the case and understanding the type of practitioner KC is?

The overwhelming tone of this thread is arguing the benefits of homebirth vs. hospital birth, epidural vs. NCB, intervention vs. none, educational levels of midwives, etc. etc. The other major component of this conversation is whether or not a midwife who was very publically arrested and who has now pled guilty to two felonies is in fact negligent for what occured during this birth.

How does this make me an evil person? For wanting more information? For wanting facts to help decide where the best environment to birth my baby is? If so, we'll honestly, screw you, because I don't think I'm a bad person nor should I STOP asking questions about the birth process. This case has helped inform my decision NOT to pursue a homebirth because I am not a low-risk candidate. It has helped me realize that I am willing to trade my vision of the birth "I" want for what is best for "us". Again, if this somehow makes me a jerk, we'll I'm sorry you feel that way, but I don't.

I got the feeling that the post about karma was aimed at the posts that blame the parents and say mean things about people who choose home birth. Some pretty terrible things have been said in this thread and the other one about the people involved in this case. I know I have cringed many times reading them and thinking that the baby's parents might also be reading. I hope they weren't. The PP also said that this was an important discussion and it seemed to me that she (or he) was okay with the respectful posts from both sides. Maybe that's just the way I read it but I did not see the PP calling everyone in the thread evil.

[Anonymous]

The author of the post you quoted used the word "Nobody"...not "midwife"; therefore, it is logical to conclude that she/he was not limiting his/her comments to midwives.

I was the poster. And yes, i intended to include all providers who serve women. People read what they want to read and understand things in unique ways based on their experience/biases.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:re: to the PP who thinks karma is going to bite us all in the arse for having an opinion about this issue - listen up!

Many of us have not judged the parents in this situation. Granted, some people on this thread do not think homebirth is the safest option (and especially in the case of a breech baby), but I have not heard rumblings of "it's the mom's fault, etc. etc.". I think people are generally interested in understanding what really went on. Many of us (myself included) are pregnant and have even considered hiring KC to attend our births. Why are we cruel/mean, etc. for wanting to know more about the case and understanding the type of practitioner KC is?

The overwhelming tone of this thread is arguing the benefits of homebirth vs. hospital birth, epidural vs. NCB, intervention vs. none, educational levels of midwives, etc. etc. The other major component of this conversation is whether or not a midwife who was very publically arrested and who has now pled guilty to two felonies is in fact negligent for what occured during this birth.

How does this make me an evil person? For wanting more information? For wanting facts to help decide where the best environment to birth my baby is? If so, we'll honestly, screw you, because I don't think I'm a bad person nor should I STOP asking questions about the birth process. This case has helped inform my decision NOT to pursue a homebirth because I am not a low-risk candidate. It has helped me realize that I am willing to trade my vision of the birth "I" want for what is best for "us". Again, if this somehow makes me a jerk, we'll I'm sorry you feel that way, but I don't.

I got the feeling that the post about karma was aimed at the posts that blame the parents and say mean things about people who choose home birth. Some pretty terrible things have been said in this thread and the other one about the people involved in this case. I know I have cringed many times reading them and thinking that the baby's parents might also be reading. I hope they weren't. The PP also said that this was an important discussion and it seemed to me that she (or he) was okay with the respectful posts from both sides. Maybe that's just the way I read it but I did not see the PP calling everyone in the thread evil.

Yes, exactly. There is very little fact known about the case and blaming without fact is well, just unethical. Debate is good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Who's presuming that? Not me. I presume that BirthCare had it removed.

How could BirthCare have it removed? If a business could have every negative review removed from those type of internet sites, it would kind of defeat the purpose, wouldn't it?

[Anonymous]

"I agree...both sides DO need to work together. However, let's be honest....the VAST majority of the blame lies within the "medical" side of the equation. OBs and medical lobbying groups have spent a LOT of time and money fighting against DEM/midwifery. Yes, there are "some OBs who see the value of DEMs/midwifery."

The only reason I think an OB should work with a DEM is in the best interests of assuring the care and well-being of the laboring woman the DEM is dumping on them.

There is a reason why many OBs don't necessarily see the "professional" value of DEMs, and that is because, quite frankly, their credentials don't rate it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
"I agree...both sides DO need to work together. However, let's be honest....the VAST majority of the blame lies within the "medical" side of the equation. OBs and medical lobbying groups have spent a LOT of time and money fighting against DEM/midwifery. Yes, there are "some OBs who see the value of DEMs/midwifery."

The only reason I think an OB should work with a DEM is in the best interests of assuring the care and well-being of the laboring woman the DEM is dumping on them.

There is a reason why many OBs don't necessarily see the "professional" value of DEMs, and that is because, quite frankly, their credentials don't rate it.

Dumping? Really?! It's attitudes like this that create fear in the heart of Mamas when facing a transfer. It is a GOOD thing when a MW recognizes when a situation is out of the scope of her practice. Honestly, facing the hostility so often focused on MWs at a hospital is not an easy thing for a MW to do. I was astounded at what my MW had to deal with when transferring my care due to PTL. Honestly, it just served as further confirmation to me that (some) OBs need a serious attitude adjustment.

FTR...I do not think that breech birth was outside the scope of KC's practice/ability considering her experience.

[Anonymous]

It is a GOOD thing when a MW recognizes when a situation is out of the scope of her practice.

I have read every post in this thread, and I still don't understand why any mother would want to deliver a baby with someone for whom there are situations "out of the scope of her practice." Why not be safe and plan for any possibility from the get-go? ESPECIALLY if you are this woman with such a high risk of complications.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
"I agree...both sides DO need to work together. However, let's be honest....the VAST majority of the blame lies within the "medical" side of the equation. OBs and medical lobbying groups have spent a LOT of time and money fighting against DEM/midwifery. Yes, there are "some OBs who see the value of DEMs/midwifery."

The only reason I think an OB should work with a DEM is in the best interests of assuring the care and well-being of the laboring woman the DEM is dumping on them.

There is a reason why many OBs don't necessarily see the "professional" value of DEMs, and that is because, quite frankly, their credentials don't rate it.

Dumping? Really?! It's attitudes like this that create fear in the heart of Mamas when facing a transfer. It is a GOOD thing when a MW recognizes when a situation is out of the scope of her practice. Honestly, facing the hostility so often focused on MWs at a hospital is not an easy thing for a MW to do. I was astounded at what my MW had to deal with when transferring my care due to PTL. Honestly, it just served as further confirmation to me that (some) OBs need a serious attitude adjustment.

FTR...I do not think that breech birth was outside the scope of KC's practice/ability considering her experience.

Am I the only one who find's the use here of the term "Mama", incredibly condescending?

I think what the previous poster was referring to was not the midwives who have backup hospital OB's available to accept transfers as needed, but the unlicensed midwives who drive up to the hospital and yes, DUMP, their patients. Yes, it is a terrible term, but it is what it is.

[Anonymous]

7. Many feel standard regulation of midwifery and a far more rigorous training would help whereas others feel it would turn it into the same corrupt wing they consider the med world to be, though many do reference countries where this is the case in defense of their stance.

While I believe that better regulation for midwifery is a very good thing, I would agree that the polarization between the midwifery field and US medical field will make this problematic. In countries, where this works better the medical model is far less interventionist than the US model. In many european countries the c-section, epidural, and induction rate is far, far less than the US and the mother/baby outcomes are better or the same. In some countries, it is difficult to get an epidural or they are very discouraged in hospitals. In the US, you are more likely to have an induction, epidural, and c-section under a midwife practicing in a hospital than you would in Europe with an ob/gyn and L/D nurses in a hospital.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It is a GOOD thing when a MW recognizes when a situation is out of the scope of her practice.

I have read every post in this thread, and I still don't understand why any mother would want to deliver a baby with someone for whom there are situations "out of the scope of her practice." Why not be safe and plan for any possibility from the get-go? ESPECIALLY if you are this woman with such a high risk of complications.

1) We don't have to understand or agree with another person's birth choice. We do, however, need to recognize that person's right to choose.

2) Many consider natural childbirth outside the scope of of some OBs/hospitals.

3) Your statement is based on the false assumption that a hospital birth is always safe which is not the case.