Virginia vs. Maryland for Universities

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, I am the one that originally questioned the professor's veracity, I think the answer may be field specific. Perhaps he is an engineering professor. I have a PhD in economics from a very highly rated program, but don't work in academia.
Liberal arts schools, which W&M styles itself as, disproportionately send students to graduate school. W&M does so as well. As such, I would expect that most graduate students are well acquainted with top undergraduate programs, including liberal arts colleges. W&M is certainly viewed as a top undergraduate school, with the exception of the Ivy snobs.
This however, is not universally true for engineering schools, which are not a standard pathway from liberal arts schools.

Still, someone who alleges to work in academia should have a basic understanding of nationally ranked colleges, whether those colleges specialize in your field or not. I was an English major, attended a liberal arts college, but I still know that Carnegie Melon is a good school. The "not my field" argument only goes so far.

But do you know whether WPI, Case Western, Colorado School of Mines are good schools? You might not even have heard of them.

PPs example is a really bad one for numerous reasons. There is a reason why every liberal arts major knows Carnegie Mellon but a large number of Carnegie Mellon grads have never heard of W&M. UMD, UVA, and even George Mason now are R1 research universities. These are the big spenders on research and producers of top thinkers worldwide. Almost all universities on the R1 list are recognized by a decent number of people in Europe, Asia, etc. The best minds want to study there. William and Mary is not one of those schools. If you aren't big into research then no amount of random undergraduate rankings is going to give you that name recognition. They can say W&M is #24 in this area in this or that ranking. The fact remains that top faculty will most likely have never heard of you. For example, moving from GWU to William and Mary is a BIG step down for faculty in most fields (can't speak for things like English lit but those are usually just happy to have a job at all).

The problem with this "analysis" is that LAC undergraduates are disproportionately represented in graduate programs, particularly the top ones. This professor apparently didn't talk to his fellow grad students or went to a crappy program.

See:
https://www.swarthmore.edu/institutional-research/doctorates-awarded[url]

Students are remembered and recognized by their highest degree. Nobody knows, remembers, or cares where you went to undergrad when you have a PhD from Chicago

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, I am the one that originally questioned the professor's veracity, I think the answer may be field specific. Perhaps he is an engineering professor. I have a PhD in economics from a very highly rated program, but don't work in academia.
Liberal arts schools, which W&M styles itself as, disproportionately send students to graduate school. W&M does so as well. As such, I would expect that most graduate students are well acquainted with top undergraduate programs, including liberal arts colleges. W&M is certainly viewed as a top undergraduate school, with the exception of the Ivy snobs.
This however, is not universally true for engineering schools, which are not a standard pathway from liberal arts schools.

Still, someone who alleges to work in academia should have a basic understanding of nationally ranked colleges, whether those colleges specialize in your field or not. I was an English major, attended a liberal arts college, but I still know that Carnegie Melon is a good school. The "not my field" argument only goes so far.

That's the point though. Everyone knows Carnegie Mellon is good school. Everyone knows Virginia Tech is a good school. Not a lot of people know that William and Mary is a good school or even a school at all. It's probably the most unrecognizable name on the top 100 US News universities outside of maybe Lehigh. Also, saying that "well narrowly focused professions like engineering and business may not have heard of it" just sounds really bad because you might as well say that W&M is not a school for people who want jobs when they graduate.

I completely disagree. Someone who works in academia absolutely should recognize the name of a school that is perennially ranked as one of the best schools in the country. No ifs ands or buts about it.

If it was ranked among the top 5, possibly you expect it to be known by anyone. It's ranked 40th. Are we all supposed to memorize the top 40 schools on USNews? Can you even list 40 schools from the USNews Liberal Arts list? That's what W&M is, a LAC, which is why it does fly under the radar due to no medical or renowned graduate programs.

Professors don't go around memorizing undergraduate LACs like DCUM posters who have nothing better to do. They have an idea of general tiers of the universities in their field in graduate programs. LACs don't have graduate study to begin with so they are irrelevant on that regard.

That makes no sense. LACs provide some of our top graduate students. I'm thrilled every time I get a solid LAC applicant because I know that even the STEM majors will be able to write. W&M is like a really good LAC.

[Anonymous]

It's true that LAC environment is very good for graduate/medical/law school - most importantly because small classes and undergrad-focused professors means that the student can get very good personalized letters of recommendation.

It's far more difficult getting personalized letters from a professor in a 600-student course, plus the professor is focused on research and his grad students.

However that doesn't change the fact that if you want a job out of undergrad, national name recognition matters and W&M does not have the national name recognition of its public peers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's true that LAC environment is very good for graduate/medical/law school - most importantly because small classes and undergrad-focused professors means that the student can get very good personalized letters of recommendation.

It's far more difficult getting personalized letters from a professor in a 600-student course, plus the professor is focused on research and his grad students.

However that doesn't change the fact that if you want a job out of undergrad, national name recognition matters and W&M does not have the national name recognition of its public peers.

You use the word fact without using any facts.

Princeton Review ranked W&M #9 for career services and #6 for internships.

If you look at online first destinations employment surveys:

William & Mary: 77% working; 15% continuing education; 5% still looking; 4% other
UMD: 72% working; 19% continuing education; 7% looking; 2% other
UVA: 65% working; 17% still looking; 16% continuing education; 2% other
VT: 56% working; 18% continuing education; 14% still looking; 3% military; 9% other

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I live in Maryland ... and the only answer is Virginia.

+1. Fellow Marylander (life long) here, who is envious of VA's colleges and universities.

Sorry for the tangent...
We recently moved to MD. Do maryland and Virginia have reciprocity for in-state tuition?

[Anonymous]

No reciprocity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I live in Maryland ... and the only answer is Virginia.

+1. Fellow Marylander (life long) here, who is envious of VA's colleges and universities.

Sorry for the tangent...
We recently moved to MD. Do maryland and Virginia have reciprocity for in-state tuition?

No

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Currently Virginia is in a far better overall position though, which is weird considering that it is historically a conservative state for it to have such great public university options.

What is this supposed to mean?

Conservative ideology is generally against investment in public education, what else?

Outside of the Northeast where there's a stranglehold by private colleges, liberal states have had a more robust university system than conservative states. UNC is an exception.

California, Michigan, Washington, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Illinois.

This is so false it's not even worth responding to. California's fabulous three tier public university system (four if you include community college) was all started by republicans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Currently Virginia is in a far better overall position though, which is weird considering that it is historically a conservative state for it to have such great public university options.

What is this supposed to mean?

Conservative ideology is generally against investment in public education, what else?

Outside of the Northeast where there's a stranglehold by private colleges, liberal states have had a more robust university system than conservative states. UNC is an exception.

California, Michigan, Washington, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Illinois.

This is so false it's not even worth responding to. California's fabulous three tier public university system (four if you include community college) was all started by republicans.

Cal was a republican state. Not any more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I live in Maryland ... and the only answer is Virginia.

+1. Fellow Marylander (life long) here, who is envious of VA's colleges and universities.

Sorry for the tangent...
We recently moved to MD. Do maryland and Virginia have reciprocity for in-state tuition?

No, that's kind of the point of this entire thread.

Note: Virginia is part of the Academic Common Market, which does have reciprocity with some neighboring states. The caveat is that it is only for majors that are not offered in Va. But it can be an option for the right situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I live in Maryland ... and the only answer is Virginia.

+1. Fellow Marylander (life long) here, who is envious of VA's colleges and universities.

Sorry for the tangent...
We recently moved to MD. Do maryland and Virginia have reciprocity for in-state tuition?

No

Perhaps veterinary medicine at VT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's true that LAC environment is very good for graduate/medical/law school - most importantly because small classes and undergrad-focused professors means that the student can get very good personalized letters of recommendation.

It's far more difficult getting personalized letters from a professor in a 600-student course, plus the professor is focused on research and his grad students.

However that doesn't change the fact that if you want a job out of undergrad, national name recognition matters and W&M does not have the national name recognition of its public peers.

You use the word fact without using any facts.

Princeton Review ranked W&M #9 for career services and #6 for internships.

If you look at online first destinations employment surveys:

William & Mary: 77% working; 15% continuing education; 5% still looking; 4% other
UMD: 72% working; 19% continuing education; 7% looking; 2% other
UVA: 65% working; 17% still looking; 16% continuing education; 2% other
VT: 56% working; 18% continuing education; 14% still looking; 3% military; 9% other

Thank you! Finally some data. I imagine the response rates are relatively similar across institutions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Odd that the excellent privates haven’t been mentioned. Hopkins on the Maryland side. W&L and Richmond in VA.

Privates don’t count.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Who picks their location just on that? I can see it being a factor if your kids are approaching college age but daily commute and home budget are really essential to most. Also remember merit aid makes some privates similar to in state.

Tons of people do. College is a significant expense

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's true that LAC environment is very good for graduate/medical/law school - most importantly because small classes and undergrad-focused professors means that the student can get very good personalized letters of recommendation.

It's far more difficult getting personalized letters from a professor in a 600-student course, plus the professor is focused on research and his grad students.

However that doesn't change the fact that if you want a job out of undergrad, national name recognition matters and W&M does not have the national name recognition of its public peers.

You use the word fact without using any facts.

Princeton Review ranked W&M #9 for career services and #6 for internships.

If you look at online first destinations employment surveys:

William & Mary: 77% working; 15% continuing education; 5% still looking; 4% other
UMD: 72% working; 19% continuing education; 7% looking; 2% other
UVA: 65% working; 17% still looking; 16% continuing education; 2% other
VT: 56% working; 18% continuing education; 14% still looking; 3% military; 9% other

Thank you! Finally some data. I imagine the response rates are relatively similar across institutions.

72% for W&M and UVA, 75% UMD, 55% VT. National average = 65%