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Virginia vs. Maryland for Universities
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Anonymous
| This is an amazing amount of goal moving, but why exactly are you comparing UMCP in 2018 with UVA/W&M at 2010? Why aren't you using the same data for all three? |
Anonymous
Note that UMCP in 2013 is also shown. Also note that there are probably have a number of different contributors on this thread with different POVs. I'm not moving goals. I'm comparing data points in time based on available information. If I had like years, I'd do like years. In general, colleges and universities don't want people to know how faculty (tenure/tenure track) are spending their time, which is why this isn't easy to find this information. That is because at many, they dedicate less than 50% of their time to teaching and over 50% of their time to research (and service). If the research (e.g. writing papers) doesn't have an external sponsor, it is classified as departmental research. Departmental research is actually accounted for as "Instruction" in data sources like IPEDS, which is used extensively by USNWR (and College Factual). Quite an accounting gimmick in my view. I'm somewhat interested in the Virginia / Maryland discussion and I've lived in both states, but I'm not pushing any school. I did some research on this in the past and just wanted to shed some light on how the sausage gets made. |
Anonymous
+1. The world of higher education has completely changed in the last ten years. |
Anonymous
Again, it had UMCP 2013 data in it. If you have more recent same year data share it. If you don't have like to like data on who is actually teaching the undergraduate courses, it doesn't tell you anything. You can have tenured faculty who teach few if any classes. You can have adjuncts that teach one a year. You can have adjuncts that teach 4 a semester. |
Anonymous
First of all your numbers are off. Second, not all non-tenure track faculty are adjuncts. Some are research professors (i.e., soft money positions). Some are lecturers or sabbatical replacements (which might be the same thing as what you are saying). Also not all adjuncts are created equally. I am, at times, an adjunct at one of the colleges in the DC area. For me, it is because I want to teach. I have a full time job where I am paid quite well. The only downside for me as an adjunct is I am not available in person. But, I am available on email. I teach in the subject area where I earned my PhD and I am working as a Chief Scientist for my group. The problem with adjuncts is that people who do not have a full time job might have to teach 6-7 classes across multiple universities to make a living. at 5K per course, 6 classes a semester is 60K per year, which is not much, and they are overloaded. |
Anonymous
No, my numbers are not at all off, they are exactly correct. "A slim percentage of the faculty (40.0%) are adjuncts (not in the tenure system)." https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/college-of-william-and-mary/academic-life/ Or is your reading comprehension off? Regardless, you keep moving goalposts on what adjunct means and what it doesn't mean. There are full-time adjunct faculty. There are also "Lecturers" which generally only requires a master's. W&M has plenty of both given the statistics. |
Anonymous
No one should use College Factual. They ultimately rely on either IPEDS or CDS data. Who knows how they generate the text shown on their website. From Common Data Set (where universities use the same criteria when supplying data) and from IPEDS (% tenure/tenure track): UC Berkeley (someone called them the gold standard) has a 20 to 1 student to faculty ratio. 99% of instructional faculty have a terminal degree in their field and 66% are full time and 34% are part time. Of full time, 78% are tenured/tenure track. UMD has a 18 to 1 student to faculty ratio. 80% of instructional faculty have a terminal degree in their field and 72% are full time and 28% are part time. Of full time, 75% are tenured/tenure track. UVA has a 14 to 1 student to faculty ratio. 93% of instructional faculty have a terminal degree in their field and 95% are full time and 5% are part time. Of full time, 64% are tenured/tenure track. W&M has an 11 to 1 student to faculty ratio. 87% of instructional faculty have a terminal degree in their field and 69% are full time and 31% are part time. Of full time faculty, 76% are tenured/tenured track. These are just faculty totals, though. It doesn't say how many credit hours any of these teach (if any). CDS allows faculty on leave with pay (e.g. research sabbaticals) to be included. |
Anonymous
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So comparing Berkeley to W&M:
Teacher Ratio: 20:1 vs. 11:1 Terminal degree: 99% vs. 87% Part-time faculty: 34% vs. 31% Tenure-track full-time: 75% vs. 76% Other than the teaching ratio, I don't see how this makes W&M exceptional for not having 'adjuncts' and having "real Ph.D. professors teach their courses". What this does prove is that W&M has better teacher-student ratio than its large public peers. But no one was arguing that. The question is, given choice between W&M and Berkeley, would you rather learn from Nobel laureates and faculty at the top of their fields in class about double the size, or would you rather learn from less acclaimed but supposedly more teaching-focused faculty. Both has its merits, I do personally think that for students that are top of their class - i.e. don't need a lot of personal attention and can take advantage of courses being taught by the top faculty in the world as well as undergraduate research with these top faculty - Berkeley is a better choice for undergraduate. |
Anonymous
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Maryland gives you a better chance of getting into a top school
Virginia gives you a smaller chance if getting into two top schools |
Anonymous
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Since this thread is meant to be Maryland vs. Virginia:
UVA vs. UMD Ratio: 14:1 vs. 18:1 Terminal: 93% vs. 80% Part-time: 5% vs. 28% % of Tenure out of all faculty: 60.8% vs. 54% W&M vs. UMD: Ratio: 11:1 vs. 18:1 Terminal: 87% vs. 80% Part-time: 31% vs. 28% % of Tenure out of all faculty: 52.44% vs. 54% So UMD has slightly larger percentage of tenure-track faculty out of all faculty, and they have slightly fewer part-time faculty. They have less terminal degrees, but not by much. |
Anonymous
A student faculty ratio of 20 to 1 is 82% higher than a student faculty ratio of 11 to 1. And that doesn't factor how much the tenured faculty actually teach vs do research. They are just two very, very different types of schools. |
Anonymous
Virginia's biggest advantage is simply more choice, both at the top level and at the schools that are the next level down. |
Anonymous
Maryland has a “top” school”? Do you “too” in the state? |
Anonymous
Well, if you get to spend much time with those star Berkeley professors when they aren't doing research or focusing on graduate students, perhaps you're right. What you might be missing is this a two step process. You have to have the faculty (the student faculty ratio) and the tenure/tenure tracks have to teach undergrads rather than do other stuff. The student surveys on Niche are kind of telling: Percent of UC Berkeley students who agree with statement: Professors put a lot of effort into their classes: 70% Easy to get classes students want: 39% Professors are passionate about what they teach: 90% Professors care about student success: 68% Professors are engaging and easy to understand: 72% Professors are approachable and helpful: 75% Percent of William & Mary students who agree with statement: Professors put a lot of effort into their classes: 90% Easy to get classes students want: 60% Professors are passionate about what they teach: 94% Professors care about student success: 93% Professors are engaging and easy to understand: 93% Professors are approachable and helpful: 95% Berkeley responses are very similar to other large state universities. W&M responses are more similar to selective privates. I've found Berkeley grads seem to have more ambivalence about the school than say Michigan grads. They appreciate it (and they sure do have great programs like computer science), but they don't seem to love it as much. |
Anonymous
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Well, every professor at Berkeley is going to be among the 99.9% in there field. No school has much quality in faculty as Berkeley in STEM other than MIT, or social sciences other than possibly Harvard, or humanities other than possibly Yale.
You're right that students won't get as much attention as they would at LACs. That's why I said top students - students that can both excel in the classes no their own and are able to standout to their professors enough to get research positions. Unfortunately, academia is very much like the other facets of life, and having a standout recommendation from a well-known researcher can hold a lot of water in getting into grad school, compared to a less-known professor. But its also true that students can more easily get better recommendation letters at LACs. Michigan is heavily loved because its Michigan, there's a large amount of school spirit and it's not as cutthroat of an environment as Berkeley. UVa is probably has an even higher student enjoyability rating than Michigan, and its for the same reason - easier academics and less cutthroat. The median student will probably enjoy UVa/Michigan over Berkeley. But that's not saying much about Berkeley's academic prowess. |