Virginia vs. Maryland for Universities

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, I am the one that originally questioned the professor's veracity, I think the answer may be field specific. Perhaps he is an engineering professor. I have a PhD in economics from a very highly rated program, but don't work in academia.
Liberal arts schools, which W&M styles itself as, disproportionately send students to graduate school. W&M does so as well. As such, I would expect that most graduate students are well acquainted with top undergraduate programs, including liberal arts colleges. W&M is certainly viewed as a top undergraduate school, with the exception of the Ivy snobs.
This however, is not universally true for engineering schools, which are not a standard pathway from liberal arts schools.

Still, someone who alleges to work in academia should have a basic understanding of nationally ranked colleges, whether those colleges specialize in your field or not. I was an English major, attended a liberal arts college, but I still know that Carnegie Melon is a good school. The "not my field" argument only goes so far.

That's the point though. Everyone knows Carnegie Mellon is good school. Everyone knows Virginia Tech is a good school. Not a lot of people know that William and Mary is a good school or even a school at all. It's probably the most unrecognizable name on the top 100 US News universities outside of maybe Lehigh. Also, saying that "well narrowly focused professions like engineering and business may not have heard of it" just sounds really bad because you might as well say that W&M is not a school for people who want jobs when they graduate.

I completely disagree. Someone who works in academia absolutely should recognize the name of a school that is perennially ranked as one of the best schools in the country. No ifs ands or buts about it.

If it was ranked among the top 5, possibly you expect it to be known by anyone. It's ranked 40th. Are we all supposed to memorize the top 40 schools on USNews? Can you even list 40 schools from the USNews Liberal Arts list? That's what W&M is, a LAC, which is why it does fly under the radar due to no medical or renowned graduate programs.

Professors don't go around memorizing undergraduate LACs like DCUM posters who have nothing better to do. They have an idea of general tiers of the universities in their field in graduate programs. LACs don't have graduate study to begin with so they are irrelevant on that regard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, I am the one that originally questioned the professor's veracity, I think the answer may be field specific. Perhaps he is an engineering professor. I have a PhD in economics from a very highly rated program, but don't work in academia.
Liberal arts schools, which W&M styles itself as, disproportionately send students to graduate school. W&M does so as well. As such, I would expect that most graduate students are well acquainted with top undergraduate programs, including liberal arts colleges. W&M is certainly viewed as a top undergraduate school, with the exception of the Ivy snobs.
This however, is not universally true for engineering schools, which are not a standard pathway from liberal arts schools.

Still, someone who alleges to work in academia should have a basic understanding of nationally ranked colleges, whether those colleges specialize in your field or not. I was an English major, attended a liberal arts college, but I still know that Carnegie Melon is a good school. The "not my field" argument only goes so far.

But do you know whether WPI, Case Western, Colorado School of Mines are good schools? You might not even have heard of them.

PPs example is a really bad one for numerous reasons. There is a reason why every liberal arts major knows Carnegie Mellon but a large number of Carnegie Mellon grads have never heard of W&M. UMD, UVA, and even George Mason now are R1 research universities. These are the big spenders on research and producers of top thinkers worldwide. Almost all universities on the R1 list are recognized by a decent number of people in Europe, Asia, etc. The best minds want to study there. William and Mary is not one of those schools. If you aren't big into research then no amount of random undergraduate rankings is going to give you that name recognition. They can say W&M is #24 in this area in this or that ranking. The fact remains that top faculty will most likely have never heard of you. For example, moving from GWU to William and Mary is a BIG step down for faculty in most fields (can't speak for things like English lit but those are usually just happy to have a job at all).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, I am the one that originally questioned the professor's veracity, I think the answer may be field specific. Perhaps he is an engineering professor. I have a PhD in economics from a very highly rated program, but don't work in academia.
Liberal arts schools, which W&M styles itself as, disproportionately send students to graduate school. W&M does so as well. As such, I would expect that most graduate students are well acquainted with top undergraduate programs, including liberal arts colleges. W&M is certainly viewed as a top undergraduate school, with the exception of the Ivy snobs.
This however, is not universally true for engineering schools, which are not a standard pathway from liberal arts schools.

Still, someone who alleges to work in academia should have a basic understanding of nationally ranked colleges, whether those colleges specialize in your field or not. I was an English major, attended a liberal arts college, but I still know that Carnegie Melon is a good school. The "not my field" argument only goes so far.

That's the point though. Everyone knows Carnegie Mellon is good school. Everyone knows Virginia Tech is a good school. Not a lot of people know that William and Mary is a good school or even a school at all. It's probably the most unrecognizable name on the top 100 US News universities outside of maybe Lehigh. Also, saying that "well narrowly focused professions like engineering and business may not have heard of it" just sounds really bad because you might as well say that W&M is not a school for people who want jobs when they graduate.

I completely disagree. Someone who works in academia absolutely should recognize the name of a school that is perennially ranked as one of the best schools in the country. No ifs ands or buts about it.

I'm sure most PhDs missed the "please list all random universities on the US News list" question in their qualifying exams. They should really beef that section up to make sure our professors are adequately trained in the important elements of their field! "Sir, you are the foremost expert on modeling sound and vibration, but DO YOU KNOW OF W&M?! GOOD DAY SIR!"

COME ON! Random university? It's a top 15 public school in the country! Do you carry on through life in a semi-conscious state?

It's ranked #40.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/william-and-mary-3705

It's ranked 40th in the overall national rankings. It's #12 in top public school rankings. Even more reason for someone in academia to know it.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/top-public

Haha Florida state is #18, so it’s slightly better than Florida State.

24 spots or so ahead of UMD.

W&M only has a handful of grad programs and only 6k students and it gets dinged in new rankings because it has a relatively low number of Pell grant recipients. Florida State went up because it has a lot of Pell Grant recipients (bright futures program).

W&M was ranked sixth or something like that in the subcategory of best undergraduate teaching. That's not an insignificant category. Clearly, academics know it well enough to rank it for that purpose.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, I am the one that originally questioned the professor's veracity, I think the answer may be field specific. Perhaps he is an engineering professor. I have a PhD in economics from a very highly rated program, but don't work in academia.
Liberal arts schools, which W&M styles itself as, disproportionately send students to graduate school. W&M does so as well. As such, I would expect that most graduate students are well acquainted with top undergraduate programs, including liberal arts colleges. W&M is certainly viewed as a top undergraduate school, with the exception of the Ivy snobs.
This however, is not universally true for engineering schools, which are not a standard pathway from liberal arts schools.

Still, someone who alleges to work in academia should have a basic understanding of nationally ranked colleges, whether those colleges specialize in your field or not. I was an English major, attended a liberal arts college, but I still know that Carnegie Melon is a good school. The "not my field" argument only goes so far.

That's the point though. Everyone knows Carnegie Mellon is good school. Everyone knows Virginia Tech is a good school. Not a lot of people know that William and Mary is a good school or even a school at all. It's probably the most unrecognizable name on the top 100 US News universities outside of maybe Lehigh. Also, saying that "well narrowly focused professions like engineering and business may not have heard of it" just sounds really bad because you might as well say that W&M is not a school for people who want jobs when they graduate.

I completely disagree. Someone who works in academia absolutely should recognize the name of a school that is perennially ranked as one of the best schools in the country. No ifs ands or buts about it.

Poets and Quants --the leading review of business schools--perennially ranks W&M's undergraduate business program very highly. So a business prof that can't keep track of top business undergrads is really out of touch.

Or, for those particularly in touch, Poets and Quants undergrad rankings methodology is viewed as disastrously flawed and is ignored almost universally. If you don't believe me, go read the comments on their ranking article

I'm not arguing for or against whether its ranking is appropriate/flawed etc. but rather the school's name would be known by someone in the field. And, if you're arguing about comments as a source of evidence...

Not at all. The ranking doesn't matter as much as its general name recognition, and compared to top undergraduate schools, W&M business is unknown. Generally no one followed undergrad business schools rankings - its MBA's that matter. The undergrad schools that'll be universally well-known in business are:
Wharton, MIT, NYU, Berkeley, Michigan, Notre Dame, Texas, UNC, possibly UVA

The rest depends on region. W&M is not in a top business region.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I gotta be honest, almost nobody outside of Virginia has heard of W&M. I'm a professor who lives in the DC area and even a few years after I moved here I thought it was either some kind of weird hippy school or a catholic school. I finally figured out it was part of the public system and an actual normal university only after being a VA resident for five years. I've been at top universities in the northeast, south, and now here, and know hundreds of academics. I have never heard a single one even mention W&M. I doubt most faculty even know it is a school. That's NOT to say that it might not be a good school. But a lot of getting jobs is about name recognition. Most employers in LA, Atlanta, Austin, NYC has probably never heard of the school. In addition, a quick googling of the faculty salaries shows that it does not pay competitively to attract top faculty. Some may be there for location preference but I can't imagine any top people in their field choosing to take a 33% salary cut to go there unless they were desperate

Really?!?!?!? WTH do you teach? I'm from NY, went to school in Massachusetts, and I knew William and Mary was a good school. I think the fact that you didn't know W&M says more about you than it does about W&M.

PP again, my father and I are in different fields - engineering and business. Neither of us had ever heard of W&M

Tenured? Adjunct?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, I am the one that originally questioned the professor's veracity, I think the answer may be field specific. Perhaps he is an engineering professor. I have a PhD in economics from a very highly rated program, but don't work in academia.
Liberal arts schools, which W&M styles itself as, disproportionately send students to graduate school. W&M does so as well. As such, I would expect that most graduate students are well acquainted with top undergraduate programs, including liberal arts colleges. W&M is certainly viewed as a top undergraduate school, with the exception of the Ivy snobs.
This however, is not universally true for engineering schools, which are not a standard pathway from liberal arts schools.

Still, someone who alleges to work in academia should have a basic understanding of nationally ranked colleges, whether those colleges specialize in your field or not. I was an English major, attended a liberal arts college, but I still know that Carnegie Melon is a good school. The "not my field" argument only goes so far.

But do you know whether WPI, Case Western, Colorado School of Mines are good schools? You might not even have heard of them.

PPs example is a really bad one for numerous reasons. There is a reason why every liberal arts major knows Carnegie Mellon but a large number of Carnegie Mellon grads have never heard of W&M. UMD, UVA, and even George Mason now are R1 research universities. These are the big spenders on research and producers of top thinkers worldwide. Almost all universities on the R1 list are recognized by a decent number of people in Europe, Asia, etc. The best minds want to study there. William and Mary is not one of those schools. If you aren't big into research then no amount of random undergraduate rankings is going to give you that name recognition. They can say W&M is #24 in this area in this or that ranking. The fact remains that top faculty will most likely have never heard of you. For example, moving from GWU to William and Mary is a BIG step down for faculty in most fields (can't speak for things like English lit but those are usually just happy to have a job at all).

This i generally true, although I don't know how GWU is viewed vs. W&M.
Problem with LACs is that its for professors that focus on teaching, but the best students in natural sciences and social sciences don't do Ph.D. to become teachers - they do it for research and the prestige associated with research. Humanities is a bit different. LACs also don't tend to pay as well.

How are people finding it hard to understand that a school like University of Michigan with a internationally renowned research program, medical school, law school, MBA, along with D1 sports, would be more well-known than a 6k student LAC with no research, no medical school, relatively unknown MBA and law schools and who knows what division sports?

That doesn't mean UMich is necessarily better for undergraduate education than W&M or that its more 'prestigious'. It's simply more well known nationally.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, I am the one that originally questioned the professor's veracity, I think the answer may be field specific. Perhaps he is an engineering professor. I have a PhD in economics from a very highly rated program, but don't work in academia.
Liberal arts schools, which W&M styles itself as, disproportionately send students to graduate school. W&M does so as well. As such, I would expect that most graduate students are well acquainted with top undergraduate programs, including liberal arts colleges. W&M is certainly viewed as a top undergraduate school, with the exception of the Ivy snobs.
This however, is not universally true for engineering schools, which are not a standard pathway from liberal arts schools.

Still, someone who alleges to work in academia should have a basic understanding of nationally ranked colleges, whether those colleges specialize in your field or not. I was an English major, attended a liberal arts college, but I still know that Carnegie Melon is a good school. The "not my field" argument only goes so far.

But do you know whether WPI, Case Western, Colorado School of Mines are good schools? You might not even have heard of them.

PPs example is a really bad one for numerous reasons. There is a reason why every liberal arts major knows Carnegie Mellon but a large number of Carnegie Mellon grads have never heard of W&M. UMD, UVA, and even George Mason now are R1 research universities. These are the big spenders on research and producers of top thinkers worldwide. Almost all universities on the R1 list are recognized by a decent number of people in Europe, Asia, etc. The best minds want to study there. William and Mary is not one of those schools. If you aren't big into research then no amount of random undergraduate rankings is going to give you that name recognition. They can say W&M is #24 in this area in this or that ranking. The fact remains that top faculty will most likely have never heard of you. For example, moving from GWU to William and Mary is a BIG step down for faculty in most fields (can't speak for things like English lit but those are usually just happy to have a job at all).

This i generally true, although I don't know how GWU is viewed vs. W&M.
Problem with LACs is that its for professors that focus on teaching, but the best students in natural sciences and social sciences don't do Ph.D. to become teachers - they do it for research and the prestige associated with research. Humanities is a bit different. LACs also don't tend to pay as well.

How are people finding it hard to understand that a school like University of Michigan with a internationally renowned research program, medical school, law school, MBA, along with D1 sports, would be more well-known than a 6k student LAC with no research, no medical school, relatively unknown MBA and law schools and who knows what division sports?

That doesn't mean UMich is necessarily better for undergraduate education than W&M or that its more 'prestigious'. It's simply more well known nationally.

So is the University of Alabama. Which one would you rather go to?

[Anonymous]

University of Alabama is more well known but not considered all that great academically. University of Michigan is far more well known and known to be an extremely great school.

Compared to supposed 'Peers', W&M is far less well known nationally. Not because its bad, but because its small, has no research program, doesn't have medical school, doesn't have well-known law/MBA, doesn't have big-time sports. Don't see how this is controversial.

[Anonymous]

Doesn’t matter whether W&M is as well known as Alabama or Michigan. It’s still a well known, prestigious college and its presence in Virginia is part of why the breadth of great undergraduate options in Virginia easily eclipse those in Maryland. It’s not really a serious question, which is why one poster wants to change the subject by exploring W&M’s name recognition compared to one school best known for football and another that is its state’s flagship institution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, I am the one that originally questioned the professor's veracity, I think the answer may be field specific. Perhaps he is an engineering professor. I have a PhD in economics from a very highly rated program, but don't work in academia.
Liberal arts schools, which W&M styles itself as, disproportionately send students to graduate school. W&M does so as well. As such, I would expect that most graduate students are well acquainted with top undergraduate programs, including liberal arts colleges. W&M is certainly viewed as a top undergraduate school, with the exception of the Ivy snobs.
This however, is not universally true for engineering schools, which are not a standard pathway from liberal arts schools.

Still, someone who alleges to work in academia should have a basic understanding of nationally ranked colleges, whether those colleges specialize in your field or not. I was an English major, attended a liberal arts college, but I still know that Carnegie Melon is a good school. The "not my field" argument only goes so far.

That's the point though. Everyone knows Carnegie Mellon is good school. Everyone knows Virginia Tech is a good school. Not a lot of people know that William and Mary is a good school or even a school at all. It's probably the most unrecognizable name on the top 100 US News universities outside of maybe Lehigh. Also, saying that "well narrowly focused professions like engineering and business may not have heard of it" just sounds really bad because you might as well say that W&M is not a school for people who want jobs when they graduate.

I completely disagree. Someone who works in academia absolutely should recognize the name of a school that is perennially ranked as one of the best schools in the country. No ifs ands or buts about it.

I'm sure most PhDs missed the "please list all random universities on the US News list" question in their qualifying exams. They should really beef that section up to make sure our professors are adequately trained in the important elements of their field! "Sir, you are the foremost expert on modeling sound and vibration, but DO YOU KNOW OF W&M?! GOOD DAY SIR!"

COME ON! Random university? It's a top 15 public school in the country! Do you carry on through life in a semi-conscious state?

It's ranked #40.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/william-and-mary-3705

It's ranked 40th in the overall national rankings. It's #12 in top public school rankings. Even more reason for someone in academia to know it.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/top-public

Haha Florida state is #18, so it’s slightly better than Florida State.

And UMD is *gasp* worse than both! Say it ain’t so!

In some random meaningless ranking they are probably worse at honoring confederate a too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t matter whether W&M is as well known as Alabama or Michigan. It’s still a well known, prestigious college and its presence in Virginia is part of why the breadth of great undergraduate options in Virginia easily eclipse those in Maryland. It’s not really a serious question, which is why one poster wants to change the subject by exploring W&M’s name recognition compared to one school best known for football and another that is its state’s flagship institution.

Who is trying to change the conversation to "one school best known for football"? It wasn't me that brought up University of Alabama.

Regardless name recognition matters when getting a job. You can be at a great college but if recruiters don't recruit at your school and managers don't recognize your school, all that greatness is not helpful in getting a job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t matter whether W&M is as well known as Alabama or Michigan. It’s still a well known, prestigious college and its presence in Virginia is part of why the breadth of great undergraduate options in Virginia easily eclipse those in Maryland. It’s not really a serious question, which is why one poster wants to change the subject by exploring W&M’s name recognition compared to one school best known for football and another that is its state’s flagship institution.

I think you're talking with like 5 different people. I'm the person who brought up W&M name recognition because I had never heard of it. I'm not OP, and I'm not at least two of the other people who have been replying recently.

[Anonymous]

Stop arguing with fake professor. He has fake papers to grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t matter whether W&M is as well known as Alabama or Michigan. It’s still a well known, prestigious college and its presence in Virginia is part of why the breadth of great undergraduate options in Virginia easily eclipse those in Maryland. It’s not really a serious question, which is why one poster wants to change the subject by exploring W&M’s name recognition compared to one school best known for football and another that is its state’s flagship institution.

I think you're talking with like 5 different people. I'm the person who brought up W&M name recognition because I had never heard of it. I'm not OP, and I'm not at least two of the other people who have been replying recently.

Also I should add that I was never trying to make the point that Virginia isn't a better state overall for public schools. I just really was puzzled that people were acting like W&M is so great. In my opinion, for most fields where there are jobs potentially waiting on the other end:

UVA>VTech=UMD>George Mason=William and Mary > all others. My issue was someone trying to say W&M is on par with VT and UMD, which is almost certainly never true outside of our very limited region.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, I am the one that originally questioned the professor's veracity, I think the answer may be field specific. Perhaps he is an engineering professor. I have a PhD in economics from a very highly rated program, but don't work in academia.
Liberal arts schools, which W&M styles itself as, disproportionately send students to graduate school. W&M does so as well. As such, I would expect that most graduate students are well acquainted with top undergraduate programs, including liberal arts colleges. W&M is certainly viewed as a top undergraduate school, with the exception of the Ivy snobs.
This however, is not universally true for engineering schools, which are not a standard pathway from liberal arts schools.

Still, someone who alleges to work in academia should have a basic understanding of nationally ranked colleges, whether those colleges specialize in your field or not. I was an English major, attended a liberal arts college, but I still know that Carnegie Melon is a good school. The "not my field" argument only goes so far.

But do you know whether WPI, Case Western, Colorado School of Mines are good schools? You might not even have heard of them.

PPs example is a really bad one for numerous reasons. There is a reason why every liberal arts major knows Carnegie Mellon but a large number of Carnegie Mellon grads have never heard of W&M. UMD, UVA, and even George Mason now are R1 research universities. These are the big spenders on research and producers of top thinkers worldwide. Almost all universities on the R1 list are recognized by a decent number of people in Europe, Asia, etc. The best minds want to study there. William and Mary is not one of those schools. If you aren't big into research then no amount of random undergraduate rankings is going to give you that name recognition. They can say W&M is #24 in this area in this or that ranking. The fact remains that top faculty will most likely have never heard of you. For example, moving from GWU to William and Mary is a BIG step down for faculty in most fields (can't speak for things like English lit but those are usually just happy to have a job at all).

The problem with this "analysis" is that LAC undergraduates are disproportionately represented in graduate programs, particularly the top ones. This professor apparently didn't talk to his fellow grad students or went to a crappy program.

See:
https://www.swarthmore.edu/institutional-research/doctorates-awarded[url]