Be careful biking with your family

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The $1 million or $10 million from the driver’s umbrella policy or lawsuit in a wrongful death would be cold comfort. As a parent, you need to be smarter.

As a driver, you need to be smarter. It would be cold comfort to you that your driver's insurance paid out to the dead child's family, wouldn't it?

Don’t be ridiculous. A lot of things could be improved from that video. But between a driver and a parent, who do you rely on to be smarter when it comes to the safety of your child? If you say driver, you need to be smarter. Else, you could have an insurance payment and a funeral.

My personal opinion is that the people who have the potential to kill other people while traveling have the greatest responsibility to be careful.

The most careful behavior in the world can't prevent a careless driver from killing you. That's why we need to focus on the careless drivers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Legally the driver is at fault. 100%. Drivers are required to stop for pedestrians in a crosswalk. If a driver can not see the crosswalk, because another car HAS ALREADY STOPPED, it's incumbent on them to slow down enough so that they can see the whole crosswalk and ensure it is clear. The fact that you don't know that would have me questioning your judgment.

In fact, it's LEGALLY REQUIRED for them to STOP. A driver may not pass another car stopped at a crosswalk.

This isn't a question of what the law requires. It's about the duty of parents to supervise their children safely -- not in an ideal world where everyone follows the law, but in the ACTUAL world. Biking across a fast-moving intersection is a well known hazards. Parents who are going to engage with their kids in an inherently dangerous activity need to inform themselves of such hazards and take actions to protect their kids. This is no different from teaching your kids to stay safe in any other context.

Of course it's a question of what the law requires. If the passing driver had stopped, as the law requires, instead of driving into the crosswalk, we wouldn't be having this mis-titled thread. The passing driver almost killed a child, and you're focusing on what the parents did or didn't do.

Geez! I'm sorry you don't like my thread title....

In my mind, the parents could have been more careful and stopped the child from crossing knowing that, for whatever reason, people around here don't like to stop for people in crosswalks. That doesn't absolve the driver of any responsibility. If they had hit the child they would have been 100% legally responsible but the parents would have blamed themselves and wished they had done things differently for the rest of their lives. I'm just glad everyone in the video is safe.

FYI it's not my cash-cam video for the person that asked but you can buy dash-cams from Amazon (and probably electronics stores?).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Absolutely I'm focusing on the parents, because they are the ones chosing to bike, and not following basic defensive biking rules.

What about the drivers, who were the ones choosing to drive, and not following basic driving laws?

Well it's not their child, is it? Yes, drivers should follow the laws, but basic rules of the road also mandate that you stay visible. Although you are apparently an inexperienced urban biker, experienced bikers know very well that shooting into intersections is not the way to stay visible to cars in intersections.

OK, I am going to shout now.

THEY DID NOT SHOOT INTO THE INTERSECTION.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To: Very experienced urban biker

I assume you don’t bike with kids. My kids were far more unstable trying to walk their bike vs riding/scooting until they were 10. And bike with a trailer? Walking that is pretty unwieldy and much easier to stop and maneuver in bike.

They were CLEARLY crossing at PEDESTRIAN speed; the whole walk your bike across is to force urban bike Lance wannabes to slow down, not force 1st graders to stumble across a crosswalk pushing their hefty Huffy.

No, they were not crossing at pedestrian speed, and the mom should have been right next to the child (whether walking or biking). If you seriously think the parents did nothing wrong here, then I guess you're one of those reckless parents I see everywhere. Glad your kids emerged unscathed. And I'm sorry you don't get the basic physics of why moving more quickly on a bike reduces visibility compared to walking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

First, I'm not totally convinced that bikes flying at speed across an intersection would not be partially at fault under some tort regimes.

Second, this is about a parents' duty to avert known hazards. Which these parents did not do.

The more you try to argue that the parents did nothing wrong, the more I think that it really is true that most people biking with kids are as dumb and reckless as I thought.

Signed,
Very experienced urban biker

Is that what you see in this video?

Both drivers broke the law, endangering a child, and your argument is that the PARENTS did something wrong?

I don’t think the cyclist’s speed was a factor here. The child is not flying at speed. I could walk and certainly jog across faster. Would I be reckless for jogging across?

Everything was bad about this: Dad did not wait until the cross walk was clear- the PT cruiser has barely cleared the intersection. The dad did look down the road which makes me wonder if the Honda driver was behind the camera car and moved to the other lane to pass him. The Honda should have stopped - common sense- a cross walk and cars are stopped. The parents should be walking the child across the cross walk, especially since one lane was open. Ultimately the Honda was at fault.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Geez! I'm sorry you don't like my thread title....

In my mind, the parents could have been more careful and stopped the child from crossing knowing that, for whatever reason, people around here don't like to stop for people in crosswalks. That doesn't absolve the driver of any responsibility. If they had hit the child they would have been 100% legally responsible but the parents would have blamed themselves and wished they had done things differently for the rest of their lives. I'm just glad everyone in the video is safe.

FYI it's not my cash-cam video for the person that asked but you can buy dash-cams from Amazon (and probably electronics stores?).

And you, as the driver, wouldn't have done that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The tractor trailer in the very beginning of the video... Is it legal for him to get in that turn lane and pass the sedan??

The dash camera car seems to get in the same lane around 6 seconds. But I don’t see any cars turning or roads to turn onto. No, you can’t cruise in a turning lane. So why the long turning lane? Looks like a poor design that further complicates this intersection.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Absolutely I'm focusing on the parents, because they are the ones chosing to bike, and not following basic defensive biking rules.

What about the drivers, who were the ones choosing to drive, and not following basic driving laws?

Well it's not their child, is it? Yes, drivers should follow the laws, but basic rules of the road also mandate that you stay visible. Although you are apparently an inexperienced urban biker, experienced bikers know very well that shooting into intersections is not the way to stay visible to cars in intersections.

OK, I am going to shout now.

THEY DID NOT SHOOT INTO THE INTERSECTION.

I just watched the video again. The small child is absolutely going faster than walking speed. Plus she's short and even shorter on the bike, which makes her harder to see as well. Pedestrians never would have gone at that pace (and if her mom had been next to her, she would have seen the car coming and not have walked in that lane until she saw it had slowed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

No, they were not crossing at pedestrian speed, and the mom should have been right next to the child (whether walking or biking). If you seriously think the parents did nothing wrong here, then I guess you're one of those reckless parents I see everywhere. Glad your kids emerged unscathed. And I'm sorry you don't get the basic physics of why moving more quickly on a bike reduces visibility compared to walking.

You know what moves even faster than a bicycle? A car. Should we all be driving at walking speed, to prevent collisions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I see people biking recklessly on Capitol Hill every freakin' day with kids. The latest was a guy with a tiny toddler (not even 2, I don't think) with no helmet on himself or his baby.

You are really going to try to turn this thread, which started off with video evidence of cyclists acting lawfully and a small child almost being killed by a driver disobeying the law, into a diatribe about how bad cyclists are?

Really?

you're an idiot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The $1 million or $10 million from the driver’s umbrella policy or lawsuit in a wrongful death would be cold comfort. As a parent, you need to be smarter.

As a driver, you need to be smarter. It would be cold comfort to you that your driver's insurance paid out to the dead child's family, wouldn't it?

Don’t be ridiculous. A lot of things could be improved from that video. But between a driver and a parent, who do you rely on to be smarter when it comes to the safety of your child? If you say driver, you need to be smarter. Else, you could have an insurance payment and a funeral.

My personal opinion is that the people who have the potential to kill other people while traveling have the greatest responsibility to be careful.

The most careful behavior in the world can't prevent a careless driver from killing you. That's why we need to focus on the careless drivers.

Don’t be obtuse. Dismounting the bikes and waiting a completely clear road in time to cross or for the cars to all come to a stop would have prevented this near miss. Yeah, it’s a pain, takes longer, people get impatient. It’s what’s required here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No, they were not crossing at pedestrian speed, and the mom should have been right next to the child (whether walking or biking). If you seriously think the parents did nothing wrong here, then I guess you're one of those reckless parents I see everywhere. Glad your kids emerged unscathed. And I'm sorry you don't get the basic physics of why moving more quickly on a bike reduces visibility compared to walking.

You know what moves even faster than a bicycle? A car. Should we all be driving at walking speed, to prevent collisions?

Look, you're not doing biking, and biking with kids, any favors by denying the obvious. Bikes need to stay safe; bikers with small kids need to stay EVEN safer; and there are a set of well-known rules of defensive biking that this family failed to follow. You'd be more persuasive if you admitted their error and tried to educate people about how to stay safe biking with kids. Otherwise, the upshot of this video would seem to be (for a rational parent): "biking is too dangerous! cars never slow in the crosswalk!" when the reality is that this family could have taken precautions to be more safe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see people biking recklessly on Capitol Hill every freakin' day with kids. The latest was a guy with a tiny toddler (not even 2, I don't think) with no helmet on himself or his baby.

You are really going to try to turn this thread, which started off with video evidence of cyclists acting lawfully and a small child almost being killed by a driver disobeying the law, into a diatribe about how bad cyclists are?

Really?

you're an idiot.

it's a diatribe about how biking parents don't know how to bike defensively and are placing their kids at risk. which I see every day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ugh, you never let a small child cross a street alone, the taller parent should have dismounted and walked the child across. Yes, the car seems reckless too but they couldn't see the little kid behind the vehicle in the turning lane. So lucky!

But if the child got hit, would the car be at fault? I don’t see why it actually would

This is not at all the car's fault -- it is the parent's/kid's fault

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Absolutely I'm focusing on the parents, because they are the ones chosing to bike, and not following basic defensive biking rules.

What about the drivers, who were the ones choosing to drive, and not following basic driving laws?

Well it's not their child, is it? Yes, drivers should follow the laws, but basic rules of the road also mandate that you stay visible. Although you are apparently an inexperienced urban biker, experienced bikers know very well that shooting into intersections is not the way to stay visible to cars in intersections.

OK, I am going to shout now.

THEY DID NOT SHOOT INTO THE INTERSECTION.

I just watched the video again. The small child is absolutely going faster than walking speed. Plus she's short and even shorter on the bike, which makes her harder to see as well. Pedestrians never would have gone at that pace (and if her mom had been next to her, she would have seen the car coming and not have walked in that lane until she saw it had slowed.

Watch it again then. The mom is right behind the little girl. The distance gets greater because she stopped and shouted when she saw the car coming. I don't think it would have looked that much different if they were walking the bikes across. That SUV was flying and gave zero consideration to the possibility of someone in the crosswalk, even though traffic had stopped in both directions.