Two paths to magnet program at Richard Montgomery High School

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We always second guess our decision and sometime information comes to justify our decisions. I am sure if you knew a few things discussed in this thread, the conversations you had when your DD decided would have been different. I am also sure the students who appealed for rejections, these information would have helped.

Magnet program is not be-all and end-all. However, if the purpose of the magnet programs are lost in social engineering effort then the "magnet" name is not sufficient for many students to leave their home school. If MCPS does not not reverse its course in couple of years, it may risk losing its academically superior status in the process.

I'm still waiting for somebody to explain the specific harms that come from including comprehensive kids in IB classes with application kids. Do the classes cover less material? Are there not enough desks in the room? Do the comprehensive kids hurt the application kids' feelings?

If you are an adult, please discuss like one.

Answer the question, please. What are the specific harms that come from including comprehensive kids in IB classes with application kids? "It damages the cohort" is not a specific harm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We always second guess our decision and sometime information comes to justify our decisions. I am sure if you knew a few things discussed in this thread, the conversations you had when your DD decided would have been different. I am also sure the students who appealed for rejections, these information would have helped.

Magnet program is not be-all and end-all. However, if the purpose of the magnet programs are lost in social engineering effort then the "magnet" name is not sufficient for many students to leave their home school. If MCPS does not not reverse its course in couple of years, it may risk losing its academically superior status in the process.

I'm still waiting for somebody to explain the specific harms that come from including comprehensive kids in IB classes with application kids. Do the classes cover less material? Are there not enough desks in the room? Do the comprehensive kids hurt the application kids' feelings?

If you are an adult, please discuss like one.

Answer the question, please. What are the specific harms that come from including comprehensive kids in IB classes with application kids? "It damages the cohort" is not a specific harm.

Read the previous 9 pages, and I am pretty sure that you have skill to comprehend the answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We always second guess our decision and sometime information comes to justify our decisions. I am sure if you knew a few things discussed in this thread, the conversations you had when your DD decided would have been different. I am also sure the students who appealed for rejections, these information would have helped.

Magnet program is not be-all and end-all. However, if the purpose of the magnet programs are lost in social engineering effort then the "magnet" name is not sufficient for many students to leave their home school. If MCPS does not not reverse its course in couple of years, it may risk losing its academically superior status in the process.

I'm still waiting for somebody to explain the specific harms that come from including comprehensive kids in IB classes with application kids. Do the classes cover less material? Are there not enough desks in the room? Do the comprehensive kids hurt the application kids' feelings?

If you are an adult, please discuss like one.

Answer the question, please. What are the specific harms that come from including comprehensive kids in IB classes with application kids? "It damages the cohort" is not a specific harm.

Read the previous 9 pages, and I am pretty sure that you have skill to comprehend the answer.

I've read them all, to my sorrow. Answer the question, please.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"The integrity of the magnet cohort" must be a fragile thing, if it can be destroyed by having non-magnet students in their classes.

Do you have a magnet student? Do you understand what a magnet cohort means? Are you suggesting we should abolish magnet programs in MCPS? Snide remarks prohibits us from having an educated discussions.

Yes, I have a kid in a magnet program. Yes, I understand what a magnet cohort means. The kids in my kid's magnet program take academic classes with kids in the comprehensive program. Nothing bad has happened yet.

You are suggesting that Richard Montgomery have separate IB classes for kids in the comprehensive program and in the magnet program. That's absurd.

NP, here. I also have a DC in a magnet program (not RM) but she has two friends at RM in 11th grade. One has expressed frustration at the fairness of letting non-magnet students join the program junior year. And I can understand that from the applicant's perspective. But she also said the regular students who join are highly motivated and capable and in no way change the character of the classes. I don't think the PP's comment is snide, it gets at the crux of the issue. It isn't fair that there's a back door to the program, but it is just. Surely the students who entered in 9th grade receive something in those two years that reward their effort and it would be wrong if local students who've also worked hard are locked out of the advanced classes at their own school. As a parent I'd like to believe I have a broader perspective than a HS student. I'll praise the student who gets into the magnet but I don't want anyone's fate sealed in 8th grade. And this isn't the last time our kids will see this, plenty of students don't step up until college or grad school and that doesn't say anything about their worth.

Anyway, what do you hope to accomplish with this anonymous screed a couple days before the open house? Hopefully DCUM posts don't really sway anyone, but if they do, the likely outcome is you just scare off some desirable out-of-boundary applicants leaving more room for local kids to go in the front door.

OP Here. I am supportive of all qualified students (RM and non-Rm cluster) to get support to advance academically. I also support a path for "qualified" students at RM to enter the magnet IB program in 11th grade. I am opposed to the following:

1. Letting RM students enter the magnet IB program without any "qualification" vetting (this is a recent change) and hence lowering the cohort academic level
2. Keeping the 2nd path to the magnet program secretive from non-RM parents/students and hence prohibiting them from making informed choice
3. Not letting non-RM student access to this 2nd chance that RM-student get and hence excluding them from a county owned program unfairly
4. Overcrowding the magnet program without renegotiating magnet resource for increased class sizes and hence lowering the support distribution for the special need magnet students

What I want to achieve to bring this out before the open house:

1. Inform the interested non-RM parents to ask questions and challenge the decision to lower the magnet academic level in 11th and 12th garde
2. Encourage non-RM parents to demand MCPS to oversee a program they own so that principal does not gut it on his whim
3. Inform the parents to help students make decision to join RM knowing what they get vs. what they lose
4. Preserve integrity of a magnet program in MCPS so that the HG students do not flee the public education system
5. Encourage all parents to demand MCPS to open more magnet programs to accommodate all Highly Gifted students and not refuse any qualified student a spot

None of these affect my children specifically. They will be out of the MCPS system in a year. I am deeply committed to highly gifted public education and am very sad that MCPS treats this set of special need student population with contempt. I do not limit my participation to anonymous forum only. I am fairly vocal in my school communities. This is just an extension of my small effort to leave something intact and if not better.

Look, I don't think this is the secret you make it out to be, I certainly knew about it three years ago when my DC could have applied (wasn't a factor in our decision), others have said the same. I know families who bought houses in the RM cluster partly for this reason. A formal application process is for accessing unknown students. Why should the school need to do this when the students have already been studying at RM for two years and meet prerequisites? I can understand why a teen might find this unfair, but I think an adult should be able to make peace with it. Having students take the courses they are capable of taking is in everyone's best interest and should be the benefit of housing a magnet program. You admit this is your axe to grind on the way out the door, so essentially spite. You're accusing every one of being un-adult, yet you're the arrested one. This is your child's school, not yours, chill.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

OP Here. I am supportive of all qualified students (RM and non-Rm cluster) to get support to advance academically. I also support a path for "qualified" students at RM to enter the magnet IB program in 11th grade. I am opposed to the following:

1. Letting RM students enter the magnet IB program without any "qualification" vetting (this is a recent change) and hence lowering the cohort academic level
2. Keeping the 2nd path to the magnet program secretive from non-RM parents/students and hence prohibiting them from making informed choice
3. Not letting non-RM student access to this 2nd chance that RM-student get and hence excluding them from a county owned program unfairly
4. Overcrowding the magnet program without renegotiating magnet resource for increased class sizes and hence lowering the support distribution for the special need magnet students

What I want to achieve to bring this out before the open house:

1. Inform the interested non-RM parents to ask questions and challenge the decision to lower the magnet academic level in 11th and 12th garde
2. Encourage non-RM parents to demand MCPS to oversee a program they own so that principal does not gut it on his whim
3. Inform the parents to help students make decision to join RM knowing what they get vs. what they lose
4. Preserve integrity of a magnet program in MCPS so that the HG students do not flee the public education system
5. Encourage all parents to demand MCPS to open more magnet programs to accommodate all Highly Gifted students and not refuse any qualified student a spot

None of these affect my children specifically. They will be out of the MCPS system in a year. I am deeply committed to highly gifted public education and am very sad that MCPS treats this set of special need student population with contempt. I do not limit my participation to anonymous forum only. I am fairly vocal in my school communities. This is just an extension of my small effort to leave something intact and if not better.

Look, I don't think this is the secret you make it out to be, I certainly knew about it three years ago when my DC could have applied (wasn't a factor in our decision), others have said the same. I know families who bought houses in the RM cluster partly for this reason. A formal application process is for accessing unknown students. Why should the school need to do this when the students have already been studying at RM for two years and meet prerequisites? I can understand why a teen might find this unfair, but I think an adult should be able to make peace with it. Having students take the courses they are capable of taking is in everyone's best interest and should be the benefit of housing a magnet program. You admit this is your axe to grind on the way out the door, so essentially spite. You're accusing every one of being un-adult, yet you're the arrested one. This is your child's school, not yours, chill.

NP here. I think OP made some good points. Your DC could have applied but did not! So, you have not been in the program and I can say that you have an axe to grind and are spiteful because of sour grapes.

It is hard for parents to think that there are students who are more academic advanced than their own. It is human nature to minimize what others have. You obviously have not been in a situation that you have felt the school is not meeting the academic needs of your student. In such a case, your questions are being fueled by what exactly?

And do not be naive. Real Estate values are directly linked to the perceived or real advantages of a good school. Good schools are measured by student performance. Without the magnet students in RMIB bolstering its scores, the real estate prices in that area will drop. The school is blessed because it has a magnet program. They are benefiting from the scores of the collection of exceptional students that RMIB gets. However, these bright students have a real need for a strong cohort and accelerated program. The classroom dynamics change when you do not have the students of the same caliber in the classroom. The lessons go slower, the discussions become less stimulating, the rigor drops. It is great if RM is doing a great job in preparing its comprehensive MYP students for RMIB DP. In that case, they should be prepared to test into the IB magnet program. Else, they can do the diploma program with their own cohort? Surely the school has prepared enough students in the 2 years to create 1 classroom of IB diploma students?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

NP here. I think OP made some good points. Your DC could have applied but did not! So, you have not been in the program and I can say that you have an axe to grind and are spiteful because of sour grapes.

It is hard for parents to think that there are students who are more academic advanced than their own. It is human nature to minimize what others have. You obviously have not been in a situation that you have felt the school is not meeting the academic needs of your student. In such a case, your questions are being fueled by what exactly?

And do not be naive. Real Estate values are directly linked to the perceived or real advantages of a good school. Good schools are measured by student performance. Without the magnet students in RMIB bolstering its scores, the real estate prices in that area will drop. The school is blessed because it has a magnet program. They are benefiting from the scores of the collection of exceptional students that RMIB gets. However, these bright students have a real need for a strong cohort and accelerated program. The classroom dynamics change when you do not have the students of the same caliber in the classroom. The lessons go slower, the discussions become less stimulating, the rigor drops. It is great if RM is doing a great job in preparing its comprehensive MYP students for RMIB DP. In that case, they should be prepared to test into the IB magnet program. Else, they can do the diploma program with their own cohort? Surely the school has prepared enough students in the 2 years to create 1 classroom of IB diploma students?

DP. If PP's child had applied and been rejected, it might have been sour grapes. But it's not sour grapes if there's no indication that PP's child had any interest in the program in the first place.

A Fox one day spied a beautiful bunch of ripe grapes hanging from a vine trained along the branches of a tree. The grapes seemed ready to burst with juice, and the Fox's mouth watered as he gazed longingly at them.

The bunch hung from a high branch, and the Fox had to jump for it. The first time he jumped he missed it by a long way. So he walked off a short distance and took a running leap at it, only to fall short once more. Again and again he tried, but in vain.

Now he sat down and looked at the grapes in disgust.

"What a fool I am," he said. "Here I am wearing myself out to get a bunch of sour grapes that are not worth gaping for."

And off he walked very, very scornfully.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

NP here. I think OP made some good points. Your DC could have applied but did not! So, you have not been in the program and I can say that you have an axe to grind and are spiteful because of sour grapes.

It is hard for parents to think that there are students who are more academic advanced than their own. It is human nature to minimize what others have. You obviously have not been in a situation that you have felt the school is not meeting the academic needs of your student. In such a case, your questions are being fueled by what exactly?

And do not be naive. Real Estate values are directly linked to the perceived or real advantages of a good school. Good schools are measured by student performance. Without the magnet students in RMIB bolstering its scores, the real estate prices in that area will drop. The school is blessed because it has a magnet program. They are benefiting from the scores of the collection of exceptional students that RMIB gets. However, these bright students have a real need for a strong cohort and accelerated program. The classroom dynamics change when you do not have the students of the same caliber in the classroom. The lessons go slower, the discussions become less stimulating, the rigor drops. It is great if RM is doing a great job in preparing its comprehensive MYP students for RMIB DP. In that case, they should be prepared to test into the IB magnet program. Else, they can do the diploma program with their own cohort? Surely the school has prepared enough students in the 2 years to create 1 classroom of IB diploma students?

What evidence is that there that this is actually happening? Are current RMIB saying that the discussions are less stimulating? The lessons can't go more slowly, nor can the rigor drop, because it's the same IB curriculum regardless.

Entirely aside from the point that you want RM to have two separate (but equal) IB classes - IB Biology for RMIB students and IB Biology for RMnotIB students, for example.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, but this thread is getting quite long, so I'm not going to read every post, but what does this mean exactly:

"1. Letting RM students enter the magnet IB program without any "qualification" vetting (this is a recent change) and hence lowering the cohort academic level "

So, are they letting ANY RM student into the IB program in 11th grade who apply? Or is there some standard, like they look at grades, PARCC scores, etc..? And if so, is this not some sort of vetting?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Look, I don't think this is the secret you make it out to be, I certainly knew about it three years ago when my DC could have applied (wasn't a factor in our decision), others have said the same. I know families who bought houses in the RM cluster partly for this reason. A formal application process is for accessing unknown students. Why should the school need to do this when the students have already been studying at RM for two years and meet prerequisites? I can understand why a teen might find this unfair, but I think an adult should be able to make peace with it. Having students take the courses they are capable of taking is in everyone's best interest and should be the benefit of housing a magnet program. You admit this is your axe to grind on the way out the door, so essentially spite. You're accusing every one of being un-adult, yet you're the arrested one. This is your child's school, not yours, chill.

It is a secret that only the RM has shared with RM-Cluster parents. Does not mean no one knows. People who are in the market to buy house and speak with RM-Cluster parents certainly would know. You sound like a RM-cluster parent. Are you? I certainly did not know about this until couple of days back and I can assure you there are many non-RM cluster parents like me who had no idea about this second path let alone the criteria for this second path changed only recently.

Since you are arguing about it, let me ask you - do you think the magnet program RM hosts is school owned? The formal process is not for assessing unknown student - it is to assess their academically giftedness and their academic need not being met by their home school. This is not about RM student meeting IB prerequisite. This is about RM-student being provided a back-door to a county wide magnet program - owned by MCPS not RM. If the RM-students are accessed for qualification and need, that would be different conversation. There are students who do that transition from JWMS to RM through the same application process - we are not talking about that.

What spite I may have for a school which my kids have benefited from. I have no axe to grind. I have a responsibility to question unaccountable practices of the school and county when I see one, especially anything that tries to weaken the magnet program by thousand cuts.

[Anonymous]

^^assessed not accessed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Look, I don't think this is the secret you make it out to be, I certainly knew about it three years ago when my DC could have applied (wasn't a factor in our decision), others have said the same. I know families who bought houses in the RM cluster partly for this reason. A formal application process is for accessing unknown students. Why should the school need to do this when the students have already been studying at RM for two years and meet prerequisites? I can understand why a teen might find this unfair, but I think an adult should be able to make peace with it. Having students take the courses they are capable of taking is in everyone's best interest and should be the benefit of housing a magnet program. You admit this is your axe to grind on the way out the door, so essentially spite. You're accusing every one of being un-adult, yet you're the arrested one. This is your child's school, not yours, chill.

It is a secret that only the RM has shared with RM-Cluster parents. Does not mean no one knows. People who are in the market to buy house and speak with RM-Cluster parents certainly would know. You sound like a RM-cluster parent. Are you? I certainly did not know about this until couple of days back and I can assure you there are many non-RM cluster parents like me who had no idea about this second path let alone the criteria for this second path changed only recently.

Since you are arguing about it, let me ask you - do you think the magnet program RM hosts is school owned? The formal process is not for assessing unknown student - it is to assess their academically giftedness and their academic need not being met by their home school. This is not about RM student meeting IB prerequisite. This is about RM-student being provided a back-door to a county wide magnet program - owned by MCPS not RM. If the RM-students are accessed for qualification and need, that would be different conversation. There are students who do that transition from JWMS to RM through the same application process - we are not talking about that.

What spite I may have for a school which my kids have benefited from. I have no axe to grind. I have a responsibility to question unaccountable practices of the school and county when I see one, especially anything that tries to weaken the magnet program by thousand cuts.

You don't say.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, but this thread is getting quite long, so I'm not going to read every post, but what does this mean exactly:

"1. Letting RM students enter the magnet IB program without any "qualification" vetting (this is a recent change) and hence lowering the cohort academic level "

So, are they letting ANY RM student into the IB program in 11th grade who apply? Or is there some standard, like they look at grades, PARCC scores, etc..? And if so, is this not some sort of vetting?

The following was a description of the second path to magnet (provided to cluster parents only) a couple of years ago:

This pathway to the Magnet IB at RMHS is open only to students already enrolled in RMHS in grade 10. After students complete an application process that includes an application form, teacher recommendations, an MCPS transcript, and an admissions test, qualified students are selected to join IB in grade 11.

Here is what the recently changed RM IB website says:

While not all students who attend Richard Montgomery are in the four year Magnet, all RM students are eligible to participate in the full Diploma Programme offered at the school.

The website still fails to mention that all Diploma candidates get a letter for college applications which identifies them as "magnet" student and they take share all class/resources that the four year magnet students do.

In recent meetings RM admin has confirmed there is no test, no application or teacher recommendation. You tell me, what you think.

In any case, why should the RM 10th grade non-magnet students not be evaluated through the same process that everyone else (in 8th grade) is to enter the magnet program? Why should non-RM cluster student not be offered the second chance to the magnet program?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The website still fails to mention that all Diploma candidates get a letter for college applications which identifies them as "magnet" student and they take share all class/resources that the four year magnet students do.

In recent meetings RM admin has confirmed there is no test, no application or teacher recommendation. You tell me, what you think.

In any case, why should the RM 10th grade non-magnet students not be evaluated through the same process that everyone else (in 8th grade) is to enter the magnet program? Why should non-RM cluster student not be offered the second chance to the magnet program?

I guess that bugs you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We always second guess our decision and sometime information comes to justify our decisions. I am sure if you knew a few things discussed in this thread, the conversations you had when your DD decided would have been different. I am also sure the students who appealed for rejections, these information would have helped.

Magnet program is not be-all and end-all. However, if the purpose of the magnet programs are lost in social engineering effort then the "magnet" name is not sufficient for many students to leave their home school. If MCPS does not not reverse its course in couple of years, it may risk losing its academically superior status in the process.

I'm still waiting for somebody to explain the specific harms that come from including comprehensive kids in IB classes with application kids. Do the classes cover less material? Are there not enough desks in the room? Do the comprehensive kids hurt the application kids' feelings?

If you are an adult, please discuss like one.

Answer the question, please. What are the specific harms that come from including comprehensive kids in IB classes with application kids? "It damages the cohort" is not a specific harm.

Read the previous 9 pages, and I am pretty sure that you have skill to comprehend the answer.

I've read them all, to my sorrow. Answer the question, please.

is this a real question? you don't know what happens when you mix high performing kids with low performing kids? what a total idiot.

- np

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, but this thread is getting quite long, so I'm not going to read every post, but what does this mean exactly:

"1. Letting RM students enter the magnet IB program without any "qualification" vetting (this is a recent change) and hence lowering the cohort academic level "

So, are they letting ANY RM student into the IB program in 11th grade who apply? Or is there some standard, like they look at grades, PARCC scores, etc..? And if so, is this not some sort of vetting?

The following was a description of the second path to magnet (provided to cluster parents only) a couple of years ago:

This pathway to the Magnet IB at RMHS is open only to students already enrolled in RMHS in grade 10. After students complete an application process that includes an application form, teacher recommendations, an MCPS transcript, and an admissions test, qualified students are selected to join IB in grade 11.

Here is what the recently changed RM IB website says:

While not all students who attend Richard Montgomery are in the four year Magnet, all RM students are eligible to participate in the full Diploma Programme offered at the school.

The website still fails to mention that all Diploma candidates get a letter for college applications which identifies them as "magnet" student and they take share all class/resources that the four year magnet students do.

In recent meetings RM admin has confirmed there is no test, no application or teacher recommendation. You tell me, what you think.

In any case, why should the RM 10th grade non-magnet students not be evaluated through the same process that everyone else (in 8th grade) is to enter the magnet program? Why should non-RM cluster student not be offered the second chance to the magnet program?

What you bolded states that they are "eligible" not that they can actually join it.

But, if what you say is true... that RM students can just join the IB program without any kind of vetting (grades, teacher recs) at their own whim, then that's wrong. I'm an RM cluster parent. However, I would like to understand this better. So, what if there are more than 40 RM students who want to be in the IB program? How would they choose who gets in? Lottery?

They may be "eligible" but there must be some kind of vetting for these students.