Two paths to magnet program at Richard Montgomery High School

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Got the slide OH slides forwarded to me by a friend: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3r5nmSM3uHPNEFrbThFSkhJbVk/view

See age 27: "RMIB is committed to providing qualified 11th graders access to the Diploma Programme"

Does this sound like RM or MCPS wanted to come clean with what is being done with respect to RM-Cluster students with the second path to magnet? If not why not. Why is it too early present this information clearly. Why does RM/MCPS want to obfuscate this information?

Non-RM Cluster parents, certainly encourage your students to apply. If your students are accepted, ask RM point blank for their plan regarding this 11th grade path for RM-cluster non-magnet students. If your students decides to join RM, hold RM and MCPS accountable for the magnet program's integrity. If your student gets rejected and would still want to appeal, get this in writing to appeal and file lawsuit if required. Your student has a right to access the same magnet Program that RM has been opening up without proper qualification vetting to RM-cluster non-magnet students in 11th grade.

Yes, that's exactly what it sounds like.

Except for the "coming clean" part, which makes it sound like it's something shameful that should be covered up. But it isn't.

I disagree, it looks to me as a small print disclosure. Otherwise they would have clearly spelled it out like the following:

Pathways to magnet IB RM

#1 Non-RM Cluster students apply in grade 8 to enter the Magnet IB at RMHS in grade 9.

#2 RM-Cluster students in grade 10, who are interested to join the Magnet IB program, are allowed to join the program in grade 11.

Why did they not make it this clear?

this is MCPS's way to open up the program to more minority kids via back door. they are aggressively trying to rebalance asian/white vs black/latinos in magnets as some of you know.

I do not think this has anything to do with access to minority kids. RM is very diverse, and I am fairly certain that many of the 11th grade entry are fairly diverse.

This is RM's current leadership trying to dilute the magnet program with their own wrong understanding of what IB school is supposed to be. In their interpretation magnet program is elitist and IB program should be completely open. They want to enjoy the attention, resource and accolades that comes with magnet program, yet want to have no demarcation between the magnet and rest of school so that the Principal can have unfettered control over running it as he wishes.

MCPS has no accountability expectation from the magnet schools and as a result the magnet programs' quality depends on the Principal's personal belief and philosophy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Got the slide OH slides forwarded to me by a friend: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3r5nmSM3uHPNEFrbThFSkhJbVk/view

See age 27: "RMIB is committed to providing qualified 11th graders access to the Diploma Programme"

Does this sound like RM or MCPS wanted to come clean with what is being done with respect to RM-Cluster students with the second path to magnet? If not why not. Why is it too early present this information clearly. Why does RM/MCPS want to obfuscate this information?

Non-RM Cluster parents, certainly encourage your students to apply. If your students are accepted, ask RM point blank for their plan regarding this 11th grade path for RM-cluster non-magnet students. If your students decides to join RM, hold RM and MCPS accountable for the magnet program's integrity. If your student gets rejected and would still want to appeal, get this in writing to appeal and file lawsuit if required. Your student has a right to access the same magnet Program that RM has been opening up without proper qualification vetting to RM-cluster non-magnet students in 11th grade.

Yes, that's exactly what it sounds like.

Except for the "coming clean" part, which makes it sound like it's something shameful that should be covered up. But it isn't.

I disagree, it looks to me as a small print disclosure. Otherwise they would have clearly spelled it out like the following:

Pathways to magnet IB RM

#1 Non-RM Cluster students apply in grade 8 to enter the Magnet IB at RMHS in grade 9.

#2 RM-Cluster students in grade 10, who are interested to join the Magnet IB program, are allowed to join the program in grade 11.

Why did they not make it this clear?

this is MCPS's way to open up the program to more minority kids via back door. they are aggressively trying to rebalance asian/white vs black/latinos in magnets as some of you know.

I do not think this has anything to do with access to minority kids. RM is very diverse, and I am fairly certain that many of the 11th grade entry are fairly diverse.

This is RM's current leadership trying to dilute the magnet program with their own wrong understanding of what IB school is supposed to be. In their interpretation magnet program is elitist and IB program should be completely open. They want to enjoy the attention, resource and accolades that comes with magnet program, yet want to have no demarcation between the magnet and rest of school so that the Principal can have unfettered control over running it as he wishes.

MCPS has no accountability expectation from the magnet schools and as a result the magnet programs' quality depends on the Principal's personal belief and philosophy.

I think perhaps you have a wrong understanding of what an IB school is supposed to be. From the official IBO Programme Standards and Practices (pg 21) Standard A: Philosophy

"DP requirements
a. The school provides for the full DP and requires some of its student body to attempt the full diploma and not only individual diploma courses.
b. The school promotes access to the diploma and diploma courses for all students who can benefit from the educational experience they provide.
c. The school has strategies in place to encourage students to attempt the full diploma."

If RMHS doesn't follow the IB requirements, IB can decertify the program and nobody is getting an IB diploma. The only two choices are open-access IB Diploma program or exclusive magnet that is something other than an IB diploma.

I agree that when the RMIB program was founded as a magnet, it was an exclusive program available only to the magnet students. I don't know if that was originally in concordance with the IB philosophy or not, but it certainly isn't anymore. Blaming the principal for unilaterally deciding to provide access to the diploma programme to non-magnet students is foolish. That came directly from the IBO office in the last audit of the program ~4-5 years ago and was a finding that needed to be addressed or RM would lose its certification. Think of it this way - allowing non-magnet students into the diploma programme is allowing magnet students the opportunity to continue earning IB Diplomas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Got the slide OH slides forwarded to me by a friend: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3r5nmSM3uHPNEFrbThFSkhJbVk/view

See age 27: "RMIB is committed to providing qualified 11th graders access to the Diploma Programme"

Does this sound like RM or MCPS wanted to come clean with what is being done with respect to RM-Cluster students with the second path to magnet? If not why not. Why is it too early present this information clearly. Why does RM/MCPS want to obfuscate this information?

Non-RM Cluster parents, certainly encourage your students to apply. If your students are accepted, ask RM point blank for their plan regarding this 11th grade path for RM-cluster non-magnet students. If your students decides to join RM, hold RM and MCPS accountable for the magnet program's integrity. If your student gets rejected and would still want to appeal, get this in writing to appeal and file lawsuit if required. Your student has a right to access the same magnet Program that RM has been opening up without proper qualification vetting to RM-cluster non-magnet students in 11th grade.

Yes, that's exactly what it sounds like.

Except for the "coming clean" part, which makes it sound like it's something shameful that should be covered up. But it isn't.

I disagree, it looks to me as a small print disclosure. Otherwise they would have clearly spelled it out like the following:

Pathways to magnet IB RM

#1 Non-RM Cluster students apply in grade 8 to enter the Magnet IB at RMHS in grade 9.

#2 RM-Cluster students in grade 10, who are interested to join the Magnet IB program, are allowed to join the program in grade 11.

Why did they not make it this clear?

this is MCPS's way to open up the program to more minority kids via back door. they are aggressively trying to rebalance asian/white vs black/latinos in magnets as some of you know.

I do not think this has anything to do with access to minority kids. RM is very diverse, and I am fairly certain that many of the 11th grade entry are fairly diverse.

This is RM's current leadership trying to dilute the magnet program with their own wrong understanding of what IB school is supposed to be. In their interpretation magnet program is elitist and IB program should be completely open. They want to enjoy the attention, resource and accolades that comes with magnet program, yet want to have no demarcation between the magnet and rest of school so that the Principal can have unfettered control over running it as he wishes.

MCPS has no accountability expectation from the magnet schools and as a result the magnet programs' quality depends on the Principal's personal belief and philosophy.

I think perhaps you have a wrong understanding of what an IB school is supposed to be. From the official IBO Programme Standards and Practices (pg 21) Standard A: Philosophy

"DP requirements
a. The school provides for the full DP and requires some of its student body to attempt the full diploma and not only individual diploma courses.
b. The school promotes access to the diploma and diploma courses for all students who can benefit from the educational experience they provide.
c. The school has strategies in place to encourage students to attempt the full diploma."

If RMHS doesn't follow the IB requirements, IB can decertify the program and nobody is getting an IB diploma. The only two choices are open-access IB Diploma program or exclusive magnet that is something other than an IB diploma.

I agree that when the RMIB program was founded as a magnet, it was an exclusive program available only to the magnet students. I don't know if that was originally in concordance with the IB philosophy or not, but it certainly isn't anymore. Blaming the principal for unilaterally deciding to provide access to the diploma programme to non-magnet students is foolish. That came directly from the IBO office in the last audit of the program ~4-5 years ago and was a finding that needed to be addressed or RM would lose its certification. Think of it this way - allowing non-magnet students into the diploma programme is allowing magnet students the opportunity to continue earning IB Diplomas.

That is the most far fetched, most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. So are you saying, after 30 years of operation, MCPS all of sudden realized RMIB is in violation of IBO? Why don't you point us to whatever came from IBO 4-5 years ago. Sorry but I think your post is nothing but crazy talk (nothing personal).

[Anonymous]

No, I'm saying that when IBO last did its audit the IBO office found that RMHS was in violation of the requirements. MCPS doesn't certify the IB programs - the schools work directly with IB for certification. To the best of my knowledge audit reports are not published online, but I would presume that if you have a child in the program you could reasonably ask about it with the IB coordinator.

I did point you to information directly from IBO. The information is "For Use from 1 January 2014". Here is the link again in case you missed it:
http://www.ibo.org/globalassets/publications/become-an-ib-school/programme-standards-and-practices-en.pdf
It's a pdf, and the information in question is on document page 21, pdf page 31.

Are you disagreeing about what the official IBO documents state?
"DP requirements
a. The school provides for the full DP and requires some of its student body to attempt the full diploma and not only individual diploma courses.
b. The school promotes access to the diploma and diploma courses for all students who can benefit from the educational experience they provide.
c. The school has strategies in place to encourage students to attempt the full diploma."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No, I'm saying that when IBO last did its audit the IBO office found that RMHS was in violation of the requirements. MCPS doesn't certify the IB programs - the schools work directly with IB for certification. To the best of my knowledge audit reports are not published online, but I would presume that if you have a child in the program you could reasonably ask about it with the IB coordinator.

I did point you to information directly from IBO. The information is "For Use from 1 January 2014". Here is the link again in case you missed it:
http://www.ibo.org/globalassets/publications/become-an-ib-school/programme-standards-and-practices-en.pdf
It's a pdf, and the information in question is on document page 21, pdf page 31.

Are you disagreeing about what the official IBO documents state?
"DP requirements
a. The school provides for the full DP and requires some of its student body to attempt the full diploma and not only individual diploma courses.
b. The school promotes access to the diploma and diploma courses for all students who can benefit from the educational experience they provide.
c. The school has strategies in place to encourage students to attempt the full diploma."

I guess I don't buy that. RMIB's running the program same way as long as I remember (for decades). I think it's a careless thing to say unless you have a hard fact to support that. The reference document you are referring to do has been in place for many, many years - I remember reading it (or something similar) more than 10 years ago. Periodically updated maybe but it's really hasn't changed over the years. I don't see that proving or dis-proving anything re. RMIB's certification status. Even for DCUM standard, it's a really irresponsible thing to say.

[Anonymous]

You don't buy that the IBO document states "b. The school promotes access to the diploma and diploma courses for all students who can benefit from the educational experience they provide."?

Or you agree that it does state that, but are arguing that they never cared before so why would they care now?

If the latter, my reply is - Why wouldn't they care? Don't all certifying organizations make efforts to verify that programs are meeting their standards? Isn't that why IB re-certifies every 5 years? I make no claims as to what happened in the past or if there was a previous violation why it was overlooked. But I don't understand why you would say IBO shouldn't care moving forward.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You don't buy that the IBO document states "b. The school promotes access to the diploma and diploma courses for all students who can benefit from the educational experience they provide."?

Or you agree that it does state that, but are arguing that they never cared before so why would they care now?

If the latter, my reply is - Why wouldn't they care? Don't all certifying organizations make efforts to verify that programs are meeting their standards? Isn't that why IB re-certifies every 5 years? I make no claims as to what happened in the past or if there was a previous violation why it was overlooked. But I don't understand why you would say IBO shouldn't care moving forward.

You made a statement of fact and I quote "IBO last did its audit the IBO office found that RMHS was in violation of the requirements." I am simply asking you to show me the proof. Simple as that.

[Anonymous]

But I am showing you proof that RMHS was in violation of the requirements. The requirements are plainly stated, and reserving the diploma program for only magnet students would be in violation of them.

Is your quibble that I don't have an official audit statement from IB? Why is that needed when the requirements are clear for everyone to see directly for themselves?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But I am showing you proof that RMHS was in violation of the requirements. The requirements are plainly stated, and reserving the diploma program for only magnet students would be in violation of them.

Is your quibble that I don't have an official audit statement from IB? Why is that needed when the requirements are clear for everyone to see directly for themselves?[/quote]

Yes, indeed. I am asking you to show me the proof. Show me the IBO report that says"IBO office found RMHS was in violation of the requirements". I want to see THEIR WORDS, not interested in your "it must be" interpretation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But I am showing you proof that RMHS was in violation of the requirements. The requirements are plainly stated, and reserving the diploma program for only magnet students would be in violation of them.

Is your quibble that I don't have an official audit statement from IB? Why is that needed when the requirements are clear for everyone to see directly for themselves?[/quote]

Yes, indeed. I am asking you to show me the proof. Show me the IBO report that says"IBO office found RMHS was in violation of the requirements". I want to see THEIR WORDS, not interested in your "it must be" interpretation.

I am not the PP who has responded to you, but I also know what you are mentioning is not a requirement, but a guideline. I believe you work for the school and mouthing the recent lines from the school or a RM-cluster parent who wants enjoy the accountability free benefit.

Either way, I know that RM was not in violation. I will point you two IBO documents which refutes your claim.

http://www.ibo.org/globalassets/publications/become-an-ib-school/rules-for-ib-world-schools-dp-en.pdf

5.7 It is the practice of the IB Organization to make its assessment available to all candidates from IB World Schools who have fulfilled the school’s and the IB Organization’s academic requirements and paid the required fees to register for an IB examination session. No candidate will be excluded by the IB Organization on the grounds of race, nationality or national origin, ethnicity, culture, gender, age, sexual orientation, religious affiliation, political beliefs, disability or any other personal characteristic as prohibited by law. Schools must implement their duties under these rules in a manner that enables this practice to be upheld.

School this means that school can have its own academic requirements and hence has the authority to verify the candidates meet the requirements.

The second reference is http://www.ibo.org/globalassets/digital-tookit/brochures/parent-pack-faqs-about-the-dp.pdf

Are IB programmes considered “gifted” programmes?

The IB does not control how schools designate their Diploma Programme. In some instances, schools choose to designate the programme as selective enrolment via application or as a magnet programme. In other cases, the programme is open to any student.

That's right, the school can decide whether it is open to any student or it is a magnet program. So, stop pushing your theory that RM has to be open enrollment program for all RM students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I am not the PP who has responded to you, but I also know what you are mentioning is not a requirement, but a guideline. I believe you work for the school and mouthing the recent lines from the school or a RM-cluster parent who wants enjoy the accountability free benefit.

I thought the whole point of this being an anonymous forum was to allow discussion that was focused on the ideas being presented rather than the people presenting them. Rather than presenting ideas that can stand on their own merit, you incorrectly label me in an attempt to weaken my argument. Does the knowledge that I am a parent of a child in the magnet program, then strengthen my argument?

Not all magnet parents think allowing home-school students access to the diploma program in 11th grade is a bad thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Either way, I know that RM was not in violation. I will point you two IBO documents which refutes your claim.

http://www.ibo.org/globalassets/publications/become-an-ib-school/rules-for-ib-world-schools-dp-en.pdf

5.7 It is the practice of the IB Organization to make its assessment available to all candidates from IB World Schools who have fulfilled the school’s and the IB Organization’s academic requirements and paid the required fees to register for an IB examination session. No candidate will be excluded by the IB Organization on the grounds of race, nationality or national origin, ethnicity, culture, gender, age, sexual orientation, religious affiliation, political beliefs, disability or any other personal characteristic as prohibited by law. Schools must implement their duties under these rules in a manner that enables this practice to be upheld.

School this means that school can have its own academic requirements and hence has the authority to verify the candidates meet the requirements.

The second reference is http://www.ibo.org/globalassets/digital-tookit/brochures/parent-pack-faqs-about-the-dp.pdf

Are IB programmes considered “gifted” programmes?

The IB does not control how schools designate their Diploma Programme. In some instances, schools choose to designate the programme as selective enrolment via application or as a magnet programme. In other cases, the programme is open to any student.

That's right, the school can decide whether it is open to any student or it is a magnet program. So, stop pushing your theory that RM has to be open enrollment program for all RM students.

It seems that you are interpreting this section as being "or" rather than being "and" to the other IB diploma requirements:

5.7 It is the practice of the IB Organization to make its assessment available to all candidates from IB World Schools who have fulfilled the school’s and the IB Organization’s academic requirements

The IB organization has requirements and the school may also set requirements (such as those needed to meet Maryland State graduation requirements), but both must be met.

In some instances, schools choose to designate the programme as selective enrolment via application or as a magnet programme. In other cases, the programme is open to any student.

I agree that this statement alone seems to allow the IBDP program to exist as a magnet. But as I will elaborate in my next reply, it is when it is in conjunction with an MYP program that the conflict for RM arose.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Yes, indeed. I am asking you to show me the proof. Show me the IBO report that says"IBO office found RMHS was in violation of the requirements". I want to see THEIR WORDS, not interested in your "it must be" interpretation.

Well, clearly you are setting a criteria that I cannot meet, since I don't possess such a document and it is unreasonable to think I would. However, I did call the MYP coordinator today to ask about the audit and got some clarifying information. From the coordinator: "Since the authorization of the MYP at Richard Montgomery and Julius West in 2003, there have always been students transitioning from the local pathway at RM into the Diploma Programme." The first group of 16 from the local MYP joined the DP as 11th graders in 2004-05 school year and graduated in 2006. The number has grown every year due to a combination of the overall enrollment growing and stronger students academically coming through the Middle Years Programme.

There was an audit in 2011-12, but it was an MYP audit, not a DP audit which I incorrectly stated previously. The MYP audit had a finding that "the continuum was not supported", meaning that since JW & RM were authorized as an MYP/DP, there was the expectation that all students going through the MYP had equal access to the DP. To address this problem, RM needed to allow access to all students completing the MYP (i.e. all students). There was a letter sent in 2012 by the principal at the time (Dr. McLeod) to the parents explaining the results of the audit. Since I was not a parent at the school then, I don't have a copy, but perhaps someone else reading this does.

So, the current process at RM is that students apply in 8th grade to a magnet cohort consisting of ~100 out-of-area students and ~25-30 JW students. These students are cohorted together in their core classes in 9th and 10th grades. In the 11th grade, the magnet cohort of students is joined by additional advanced students who have chosen to join the Diploma Programme. This process supports the DP requirements and addresses the finding from the 2012 MYP audit.

Hopefully this information is helpful to those who are interested in understanding how the RMIB structure has evolved over time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Yes, indeed. I am asking you to show me the proof. Show me the IBO report that says"IBO office found RMHS was in violation of the requirements". I want to see THEIR WORDS, not interested in your "it must be" interpretation.

Well, clearly you are setting a criteria that I cannot meet, since I don't possess such a document and it is unreasonable to think I would. However, I did call the MYP coordinator today to ask about the audit and got some clarifying information. From the coordinator: "Since the authorization of the MYP at Richard Montgomery and Julius West in 2003, there have always been students transitioning from the local pathway at RM into the Diploma Programme." The first group of 16 from the local MYP joined the DP as 11th graders in 2004-05 school year and graduated in 2006. The number has grown every year due to a combination of the overall enrollment growing and stronger students academically coming through the Middle Years Programme.

There was an audit in 2011-12, but it was an MYP audit, not a DP audit which I incorrectly stated previously. The MYP audit had a finding that "the continuum was not supported", meaning that since JW & RM were authorized as an MYP/DP, there was the expectation that all students going through the MYP had equal access to the DP. To address this problem, RM needed to allow access to all students completing the MYP (i.e. all students). There was a letter sent in 2012 by the principal at the time (Dr. McLeod) to the parents explaining the results of the audit. Since I was not a parent at the school then, I don't have a copy, but perhaps someone else reading this does.

So, the current process at RM is that students apply in 8th grade to a magnet cohort consisting of ~100 out-of-area students and ~25-30 JW students. These students are cohorted together in their core classes in 9th and 10th grades. In the 11th grade, the magnet cohort of students is joined by additional advanced students who have chosen to join the Diploma Programme. This process supports the DP requirements and addresses the finding from the 2012 MYP audit.

Hopefully this information is helpful to those who are interested in understanding how the RMIB structure has evolved over time.

Thanks a lot for the clarificatio. Are all the students in JWMS taking classes in the MYP program? What happens to the non-magnet 9 and 10 students? Are those students taking classes in MYP?

[Anonymous]

All students at JWMS and in 9th and 10th grades at RMHS are in the Middle Years Programme. MYP isn't a set of specific courses, rather it is a framework for teaching and learning that emphasizes critical thinking, worldiness, cross-curricular projects, writing, and being a well-rounded and reflective student. You can read more here: http://www.ibo.org/programmes/middle-years-programme/ .