Split articulation (bussing) for the new BCC Middle School?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I know of research that shows that outcomes for kids from high-poverty schools bused to lower-poverty schools show minimal to no impact. It's one of those things we are tempted to do because the motivation is good, and we don't know what else to do. The real issues: poverty in the home environment and lack of family support/resources, are a lot harder to address than simply putting a bunch of kids on buses and telling ourselves at least we're doing something. But we really aren't. Meanwhile ,you're using those llimited resources for busing instead of directing them toward productive uses.

MCPS buses kids basically across the street. If you're worried about resources wasted on busing, my suggestion is to start there.

That's when the street is a dangerous one for kids to cross. My kids walk to school (a 10 min walk), because there's no big road between us and school. Btw, no hidden agenda from me. We're a Latin family. I'd be fine with busing if it's an option (like if you want to go to a different school, sign up). As long as enough resources are shifted to the school that's getting a bunch of new kids. I just don't think it should be forced on kids that they have to move away from their local school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Why do I always get the feeling that when people plant their flag in the busing camp it is code for " I spent my money so I didn't have to live around the blacks, and I object you using busing to mix them into my kid's life".

I used to think that too, and I'm sure that's some of it, but don't overlook the real hassles that the busing and split articulation causes for parents of kids from Chevy Chase and North Chevy Chase whose kids are sent to RHES for K-2 and then back to neighborhood schools for 3-6. RHES is a lovely environment and very well-run, but it's a PITA to have the split. My friend with 2 kids at Woodacres can do a single dropoff and pickup; she can be there for the Halloween parade and other activities where she sees both kids; she's only got to try to be a volunteer or active PTA member at 1 school. And yes, her kids don't have to deal w/ a bus ride that ranges from 15 mins to an hour (and is rarely the same each day.)

Whereas I have same-aged kids at RHES and one of the CCs. I can't pick up the younger one from school by car ever because no one would be home to let the older one into the house. I have to choose which school I visit for various holidays and activities. I only volunteer episodically at one school and I make a passing effort at doing some PTA stuff at the other (I work FT, so this is the best I got.) And while my younger kid loves the bus, the fact that it's been in several accidents this year alone is not a huge plus in my book nor is the fact that it takes me forever to get to RHES for afterschool activity pickups. And it sucks when the kids have to separate at 3rd grade; it so happened that most of my older kid's friends were zoned for the other CC. None of those things would be an issue if Chevy Chase and North Chevy Chase were permitted K-5 neighborhood schools like almost all the other elementaries in MCPS.

So after this experience I'd much prefer a neighborhood school for K-5 and it has nothing to do with skin color or socioeconomic status. But please, go ahead, assume that I must be a racist snob. And btw no one in SS or "middle class" Chevy Chase (where is that exactly?) is responsible for preventing the PP's radical reengineering of MCPS from moving forward. The reason MCPS will never implement a plan that opens all schools up to lotteries is that it's totally unworkable in a system of this size.

Personally, we loved the 3-6 environment. Good enrichment classes after school for one thing. That's harder to pull off when you have more of an age range. No complaints.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

In what sense? If the outcomes are the same for the kids as they were in the home schools, that's no benefit. If the kids associate socially with their own neighborhood friends anyway, that's not socioeconomic integration. It's the same as the magnet schools. There's social stratification anyway. If you want socioeconomic integration, it has to be done at the housing level. Busing just doesn't accomplish that.

But they aren't.

Yes, there needs to be socioeconomic integration at the housing level. But that doesn't preclude busing as another solution.

It appears that they actually are. The research on this is, as i said mixed, but most show no real effects.

I know of no research that shows that it's just as good for poor kids to go to high-poverty schools. Do you?

I know of research that shows that outcomes for kids from high-poverty schools bused to lower-poverty schools show minimal to no impact. It's one of those things we are tempted to do because the motivation is good, and we don't know what else to do. The real issues: poverty in the home environment and lack of family support/resources, are a lot harder to address than simply putting a bunch of kids on buses and telling ourselves at least we're doing something. But we really aren't. Meanwhile ,you're using those llimited resources for busing instead of directing them toward productive uses.

Socioeconomic integration happens because people *think* it will make a difference for the kids who are below the poverty line. This perception is so ingrained in the psyche of the local population that busing will occur in the middle schools and it will do nothing to close the achievement gap. The PP was correct, the issues really are home environment and family support/resources.

The reality is FARMS students require a substantially larger amount of resources and staff time than the rest of the non-FARMS student body. The balancing of the socioeconomic populations between the two schools is necessary to equalize the school environment for the non-FARMS kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Why do I always get the feeling that when people plant their flag in the busing camp it is code for " I spent my money so I didn't have to live around the blacks, and I object you using busing to mix them into my kid's life".

I used to think that too, and I'm sure that's some of it, but don't overlook the real hassles that the busing and split articulation causes for parents of kids from Chevy Chase and North Chevy Chase whose kids are sent to RHES for K-2 and then back to neighborhood schools for 3-6. RHES is a lovely environment and very well-run, but it's a PITA to have the split. My friend with 2 kids at Woodacres can do a single dropoff and pickup; she can be there for the Halloween parade and other activities where she sees both kids; she's only got to try to be a volunteer or active PTA member at 1 school. And yes, her kids don't have to deal w/ a bus ride that ranges from 15 mins to an hour (and is rarely the same each day.)

Whereas I have same-aged kids at RHES and one of the CCs. I can't pick up the younger one from school by car ever because no one would be home to let the older one into the house. I have to choose which school I visit for various holidays and activities. I only volunteer episodically at one school and I make a passing effort at doing some PTA stuff at the other (I work FT, so this is the best I got.) And while my younger kid loves the bus, the fact that it's been in several accidents this year alone is not a huge plus in my book nor is the fact that it takes me forever to get to RHES for afterschool activity pickups. And it sucks when the kids have to separate at 3rd grade; it so happened that most of my older kid's friends were zoned for the other CC. None of those things would be an issue if Chevy Chase and North Chevy Chase were permitted K-5 neighborhood schools like almost all the other elementaries in MCPS.

So after this experience I'd much prefer a neighborhood school for K-5 and it has nothing to do with skin color or socioeconomic status. But please, go ahead, assume that I must be a racist snob. And btw no one in SS or "middle class" Chevy Chase (where is that exactly?) is responsible for preventing the PP's radical reengineering of MCPS from moving forward. The reason MCPS will never implement a plan that opens all schools up to lotteries is that it's totally unworkable in a system of this size.

Thank you so much for this post!. You are dead on. Another RHPS parent here and this is our experience exactly. From the heartbreak of having to choose which Halloween/Valentine party to attend and crushing your one of your children's feelings to the multiple accidents my child's bus has been in this year. We parents are at the point where we suck in our breath with worry now when the bus is late.

Or the 45 minute to hour long bus ride that gave my son motion sickness every day so I started driving to a different stop further from my house so he would spend less time on the bus to RHPS. No one else in the Bethesda area deals with this split elementary school headache. If you are going to do it to the NCC/CCES kids then split up all those lily white schools elsewhere in Bethesda and bus everyone. The diversity burden shouldn't fall disproportionately on two schools.

I like RHPS for the most part. My kids have made wonderful diverse friends but I would not say the school is even that diverse. It is actually disappointing it isn'tmore so for all the trouble we go through. Which makes it even more unfair that RHPS kids are bussed away from their neighborhoods during the K-2 years. Then the kids make friends and are torn away from them 3-6. I will be ticked if they don't pull together NCC and CCES for middle school so they can reunited. It will be insult to injury. Bus Westbrook to the new middle and let them feel the bussing pain. I can walk to CCES from my house just like they can walk to Westland. Didn't stop Montco from bussing our kids. Let RCF be bussed to Westland so they can feel the pain too. Give the NCC CCES RHPS parents a break. We've paid our dues.

Of broken friendships, choosing between your children, unsafe bussing and a million other cons of bussing your littlest kids to a school 10 miles away to another town.

[Anonymous]

There are no lily-white schools in MCPS. Not even in Bethesda.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are no lily-white schools in MCPS. Not even in Bethesda.

oh please!. See Somerset, Bradley Hills, Westbrook, Wood Acres, Ashburton, Carderock Potomac (except for Asians, but they don't count as minorities, right?) Etc etc etc. Pyle and Whitman. Tip of the iceberg. How about we break up those schools up and bus them out too. Seems only fair. If it's good enough for RHPS then it's good enough for them too. If we are going to make diversity an issue, then make it an issue for all and fix it istead of paying lip service to it by picking on a couple communities and forcing hardship on them the way they have ike CCES RHPS and NCC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are no lily-white schools in MCPS. Not even in Bethesda.

oh please!. See Somerset, Bradley Hills, Westbrook, Wood Acres, Ashburton, Carderock Potomac (except for Asians, but they don't count as minorities, right?) Etc etc etc. Pyle and Whitman. Tip of the iceberg. How about we break up those schools up and bus them out too. Seems only fair. If it's good enough for RHPS then it's good enough for them too. If we are going to make diversity an issue, then make it an issue for all and fix it istead of paying lip service to it by picking on a couple communities and forcing hardship on them the way they have ike CCES RHPS and NCC.

Somerset: 63% white
Bradley Hills: 67% white
Westbrook: 76% white
Wood Acres: 70% white
Ashburton: 48% white
Carderock Springs: 68% white
Potomac: 54% white
Pyle: 73% white
Whitman: 70% white

Only in Montgomery County would schools where more than 1 in 4 students is not white be described as "lily-white". Or maybe the lilies you've seen are different from the lilies I've seen.

[Anonymous]

I like RHPS for the most part. My kids have made wonderful diverse friends but I would not say the school is even that diverse. It is actually disappointing it isn't more so for all the trouble we go through. Which makes it even more unfair that RHPS kids are bussed away from their neighborhoods during the K-2 years. Then the kids make friends and are torn away from them 3-6. I will be ticked if they don't pull together NCC and CCES for middle school so they can reunited. It will be insult to injury. Bus Westbrook to the new middle and let them feel the bussing pain. I can walk to CCES from my house just like they can walk to Westland. Didn't stop Montco from bussing our kids. Let RCF be bussed to Westland so they can feel the pain too. Give the NCC CCES RHPS parents a break. We've paid our dues.

My kids were friendly with kids that lived close to RHPS also but honestly they continued the friendships with kids who live closer to them, because it is easier to have playdates after school and on weekends. It was the same for the kids that went to Rosemary Hills that lived in the apartments and neighborhoods close to the school.

I think there is a HUGE problem on this thread with people associating diversity in the school simply with race. The diversity that is needed is socioeconomic, the FARMS rate is largely comprised of black and hispanic children, but not every child of color is below the poverty line. The financially well off hispanic diplomat's child is not going to require the same degree of resources as the immigrant ESOL below the poverty line child.

My kids have lots friends who are are affluent children of color. I don't really see much of a difference between any of them, except for a few cultural customs and sometimes food choices. My kids chose their friends based on who they like not on their racial composition. It has always bothered me when parents say they want their kids to have a racial diverse group of friends, to me it's like treating people like tokens. You make a friend based on commonality not color.

I am not against balancing the FARMS rate because working for our PTA I've seen how much money we allocate to help those kids with supplies, enrichment and mentoring classes.

[Anonymous]

(quote=Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are no lily-white schools in MCPS. Not even in Bethesda.

oh please!. See Somerset, Bradley Hills, Westbrook, Wood Acres, Ashburton, Carderock Potomac (except for Asians, but they don't count as minorities, right?) Etc etc etc. Pyle and Whitman. Tip of the iceberg. How about we break up those schools up and bus them out too. Seems only fair. If it's good enough for RHPS then it's good enough for them too. If we are going to make diversity an issue, then make it an issue for all and fix it istead of paying lip service to it by picking on a couple communities and forcing hardship on them the way they have ike CCES RHPS and NCC.

Somerset: 63% white
Bradley Hills: 67% white
Westbrook: 76% white
Wood Acres: 70% white
Ashburton: 48% white
Carderock Springs: 68% white
Potomac: 54% white
Pyle: 73% white
Whitman: 70% white

Only in Montgomery County would schools where more than 1 in 4 students is not white be described as "lily-white". Or maybe the lilies you've seen are different from the lilies I've seen.

I know, I know!. Instead if putting down the number of whites. Why not give us the numbers of African American and Hispanic students? Because those are the numbers that count towards diversity. Not the overacheving Asians. Even better, what we are REALLY talking about is FARMs rates for schools. Socioeconomic diversity. Since you have your finger on the statistics button, let's pull up the FARMS rates for those same schools that you are touting as so diverse and compare them to RHPS and RCF. Seems to me you are afraid the great bussing experiment will be coming to your school soon so you are touting your upper income schools as diverse. Everyone knows the truth. Time for every elementary school to have some skin in the game. Either have more schools bus like RHPS or let the NCC RHPS and CCES people finally have a neighborhood school instead of little kids biased miles away to the next town where their frienships get ripped apart and parents struggle logistically handle how to best deal the conflicts in schedule. Thise are the things that should discussed along with the new middle school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I know, I know!. Instead if putting down the number of whites. Why not give us the numbers of African American and Hispanic students? Because those are the numbers that count towards diversity. Not the overacheving Asians. Even better, what we are REALLY talking about is FARMs rates for schools. Socioeconomic diversity. Since you have your finger on the statistics button, let's pull up the FARMS rates for those same schools that you are touting as so diverse and compare them to RHPS and RCF. Seems to me you are afraid the great bussing experiment will be coming to your school soon so you are touting your upper income schools as diverse. Everyone knows the truth. Time for every elementary school to have some skin in the game. Either have more schools bus like RHPS or let the NCC RHPS and CCES people finally have a neighborhood school instead of little kids biased miles away to the next town where their frienships get ripped apart and parents struggle logistically handle how to best deal the conflicts in schedule. Thise are the things that should discussed along with the new middle school.

Nobody is touting the schools as "so diverse". The allegation was that the schools are "lily-white". The numbers show that they are not.

You can pull up your own numbers here: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/sharedaccountability/glance/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I think there is a HUGE problem on this thread with people associating diversity in the school simply with race. The diversity that is needed is socioeconomic, the FARMS rate is largely comprised of black and hispanic children, but not every child of color is below the poverty line. The financially well off hispanic diplomat's child is not going to require the same degree of resources as the immigrant ESOL below the poverty line child.

But race/ethnicity and socioeconomic status are highly correlated in Montgomery County, as you way. Maybe somewhat less so in Bethesda, where almost everybody is affluent.

And racism is still a thing, as well. The financially well-off Hispanic diplomat's child will not require the same resources as an immigrant ESOL child on FARMS -- but may nonetheless be treated as equally academically incapable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I like RHPS for the most part. My kids have made wonderful diverse friends but I would not say the school is even that diverse. It is actually disappointing it isn't more so for all the trouble we go through. Which makes it even more unfair that RHPS kids are bussed away from their neighborhoods during the K-2 years. Then the kids make friends and are torn away from them 3-6. I will be ticked if they don't pull together NCC and CCES for middle school so they can reunited. It will be insult to injury. Bus Westbrook to the new middle and let them feel the bussing pain. I can walk to CCES from my house just like they can walk to Westland. Didn't stop Montco from bussing our kids. Let RCF be bussed to Westland so they can feel the pain too. Give the NCC CCES RHPS parents a break. We've paid our dues.

My kids were friendly with kids that lived close to RHPS also but honestly they continued the friendships with kids who live closer to them, because it is easier to have playdates after school and on weekends. It was the same for the kids that went to Rosemary Hills that lived in the apartments and neighborhoods close to the school.

I think there is a HUGE problem on this thread with people associating diversity in the school simply with race. The diversity that is needed is socioeconomic, the FARMS rate is largely comprised of black and hispanic children, but not every child of color is below the poverty line. The financially well off hispanic diplomat's child is not going to require the same degree of resources as the immigrant ESOL below the poverty line child.

My kids have lots friends who are are affluent children of color. I don't really see much of a difference between any of them, except for a few cultural customs and sometimes food choices. My kids chose their friends based on who they like not on their racial composition. It has always bothered me when parents say they want their kids to have a racial diverse group of friends, to me it's like treating people like tokens. You make a friend based on commonality not color.

I am not against balancing the FARMS rate because working for our PTA I've seen how much money we allocate to help those kids with supplies, enrichment and mentoring classes.

PP here. My CCES child has maintained his friendship with his,NCC friends because we drive many miles and work hard to keep those friendships going because those kids,are dear to his heart. This has nothing to do with race and all about human relationships and their treasured value regardless of skin color. A child K-2 who bonds with friends as a small child deserves to have the same community of friends through Grade 5, the formative years. That said, it's too late for my kids but the RHPS experiment either needs to be expanded or dropped. It's not fair to that community of parents to have such a stressful situation to contend with. Like I said, I will be mad as hell if the NCC and CCES kids don't get the same middle school. It's a slap in the face for all of the extea efforts RHPS parents,have made in trying to build a community over many miles and socioeconomic factors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I know, I know!. Instead if putting down the number of whites. Why not give us the numbers of African American and Hispanic students? Because those are the numbers that count towards diversity. Not the overacheving Asians. Even better, what we are REALLY talking about is FARMs rates for schools. Socioeconomic diversity. Since you have your finger on the statistics button, let's pull up the FARMS rates for those same schools that you are touting as so diverse and compare them to RHPS and RCF. Seems to me you are afraid the great bussing experiment will be coming to your school soon so you are touting your upper income schools as diverse. Everyone knows the truth. Time for every elementary school to have some skin in the game. Either have more schools bus like RHPS or let the NCC RHPS and CCES people finally have a neighborhood school instead of little kids biased miles away to the next town where their frienships get ripped apart and parents struggle logistically handle how to best deal the conflicts in schedule. Thise are the things that should discussed along with the new middle school.

Nobody is touting the schools as "so diverse". The allegation was that the schools are "lily-white". The numbers show that they are not.

You can pull up your own numbers here: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/sharedaccountability/glance/

Wrong. Diversity is both race and socio economic. You are playing with the use of one phrase out of a whole 5paragraphs ro try to detract from the main point. You must be an attorney. Focus on one thing to try to discredit the complete picture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Why do I always get the feeling that when people plant their flag in the busing camp it is code for " I spent my money so I didn't have to live around the blacks, and I object you using busing to mix them into my kid's life".

I used to think that too, and I'm sure that's some of it, but don't overlook the real hassles that the busing and split articulation causes for parents of kids from Chevy Chase and North Chevy Chase whose kids are sent to RHES for K-2 and then back to neighborhood schools for 3-6. RHES is a lovely environment and very well-run, but it's a PITA to have the split. My friend with 2 kids at Woodacres can do a single dropoff and pickup; she can be there for the Halloween parade and other activities where she sees both kids; she's only got to try to be a volunteer or active PTA member at 1 school. And yes, her kids don't have to deal w/ a bus ride that ranges from 15 mins to an hour (and is rarely the same each day.)

Whereas I have same-aged kids at RHES and one of the CCs. I can't pick up the younger one from school by car ever because no one would be home to let the older one into the house. I have to choose which school I visit for various holidays and activities. I only volunteer episodically at one school and I make a passing effort at doing some PTA stuff at the other (I work FT, so this is the best I got.) And while my younger kid loves the bus, the fact that it's been in several accidents this year alone is not a huge plus in my book nor is the fact that it takes me forever to get to RHES for afterschool activity pickups. And it sucks when the kids have to separate at 3rd grade; it so happened that most of my older kid's friends were zoned for the other CC. None of those things would be an issue if Chevy Chase and North Chevy Chase were permitted K-5 neighborhood schools like almost all the other elementaries in MCPS.

So after this experience I'd much prefer a neighborhood school for K-5 and it has nothing to do with skin color or socioeconomic status. But please, go ahead, assume that I must be a racist snob. And btw no one in SS or "middle class" Chevy Chase (where is that exactly?) is responsible for preventing the PP's radical reengineering of MCPS from moving forward. The reason MCPS will never implement a plan that opens all schools up to lotteries is that it's totally unworkable in a system of this size.

Thank you so much for this post!. You are dead on. Another RHPS parent here and this is our experience exactly. From the heartbreak of having to choose which Halloween/Valentine party to attend and crushing your one of your children's feelings to the multiple accidents my child's bus has been in this year. We parents are at the point where we suck in our breath with worry now when the bus is late.

Or the 45 minute to hour long bus ride that gave my son motion sickness every day so I started driving to a different stop further from my house so he would spend less time on the bus to RHPS. No one else in the Bethesda area deals with this split elementary school headache. If you are going to do it to the NCC/CCES kids then split up all those lily white schools elsewhere in Bethesda and bus everyone. The diversity burden shouldn't fall disproportionately on two schools.

I like RHPS for the most part. My kids have made wonderful diverse friends but I would not say the school is even that diverse. It is actually disappointing it isn'tmore so for all the trouble we go through. Which makes it even more unfair that RHPS kids are bussed away from their neighborhoods during the K-2 years. Then the kids make friends and are torn away from them 3-6. I will be ticked if they don't pull together NCC and CCES for middle school so they can reunited. It will be insult to injury. Bus Westbrook to the new middle and let them feel the bussing pain. I can walk to CCES from my house just like they can walk to Westland. Didn't stop Montco from bussing our kids. Let RCF be bussed to Westland so they can feel the pain too. Give the NCC CCES RHPS parents a break. We've paid our dues.

Of broken friendships, choosing between your children, unsafe bussing and a million other cons of bussing your littlest kids to a school 10 miles away to another town.

Did you not know of the school splits when you bought your house?

Assuming so, just stop it already.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I know, I know!. Instead if putting down the number of whites. Why not give us the numbers of African American and Hispanic students? Because those are the numbers that count towards diversity. Not the overacheving Asians. Even better, what we are REALLY talking about is FARMs rates for schools. Socioeconomic diversity. Since you have your finger on the statistics button, let's pull up the FARMS rates for those same schools that you are touting as so diverse and compare them to RHPS and RCF. Seems to me you are afraid the great bussing experiment will be coming to your school soon so you are touting your upper income schools as diverse. Everyone knows the truth. Time for every elementary school to have some skin in the game. Either have more schools bus like RHPS or let the NCC RHPS and CCES people finally have a neighborhood school instead of little kids biased miles away to the next town where their frienships get ripped apart and parents struggle logistically handle how to best deal the conflicts in schedule. Thise are the things that should discussed along with the new middle school.

Nobody is touting the schools as "so diverse". The allegation was that the schools are "lily-white". The numbers show that they are not.

You can pull up your own numbers here: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/sharedaccountability/glance/

Wrong. Diversity is both race and socio economic. You are playing with the use of one phrase out of a whole 5paragraphs ro try to detract from the main point. You must be an attorney. Focus on one thing to try to discredit the complete picture.

OK, then, who was touting the schools as "so diverse"?