I don't understand the deal with MoCo class size

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Downingtown, PA area has taken an innovative approach to the booming population - they have a school just for 6th grade. It has many classes and a really great atmosphere. I'm not saying its the answer, but innovative thinking is important.

That's not innovative. School systems have been doing that since at least the 1960s, if not earlier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

If you want to talk about doctors, I have found the same to be true. Mission driven typically equals doctors practicing in academic hospitals. Money driven typically equals private practice physicians who are cash based. The doctors in hospitals like Hopkins are typically more ethical and skillful than those who have opened private practice and focus on cash flow vs. best interests for patient.

You're not comparing public-school teachers to fee-for-service doctors in private practice, are you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Sure. I chose to leave a lucrative career 10 years ago to raise my children. There are countless people who choose mission over money. If you don't understand the concept, then you must not have ann appreciation for something called sacrifice.

As the PP said, nobody goes into teaching for the pay. Including public-school teaching.

We don't tell doctors that they should be in it for the healing, not the money. We don't tell doctors that their interest in compensation shows that they lack vocation and a sense of sacrifice. Why do we think it's ok to tell teachers those things?

No we don't tell anyone what they should do when it comes to career choices. But what I have found, in both the medical field and the education field, is that there are a special group of professionals who truly want to make a difference.

Speaking about education, unfortunately the public schools are lacking that type of mission driven teacher. Just my observation as a mom of a student that has been in both private and pubic. I have found that these mission driven educators have so much more to offer students...even beyond typical classroom instruction.

If you want to talk about doctors, I have found the same to be true. Mission driven typically equals doctors practicing in academic hospitals. Money driven typically equals private practice physicians who are cash based. The doctors in hospitals like Hopkins are typically more ethical and skillful than those who have opened private practice and focus on cash flow vs. best interests for patient.

Teach for America attracts a "special group of [people] who truly want to make a difference." <--- NOTE that they are not "professionals" because they are not experienced or certified to teach. They are not in fact more skilled or have "so much more to offer" students. On the contrary, they are inexperienced and have questionable effect. For this reason good school districts don't/won't hire them - they teach in inner-city schools, for the most part.

"Mission-driven" does not equate to "better" or "more effective" and certainly does not equate to more skilled. It is a romantic notion, for sure, and not supported by any hard evidence at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Sure. I chose to leave a lucrative career 10 years ago to raise my children. There are countless people who choose mission over money. If you don't understand the concept, then you must not have ann appreciation for something called sacrifice.

As the PP said, nobody goes into teaching for the pay. Including public-school teaching.

We don't tell doctors that they should be in it for the healing, not the money. We don't tell doctors that their interest in compensation shows that they lack vocation and a sense of sacrifice. Why do we think it's ok to tell teachers those things?

No we don't tell anyone what they should do when it comes to career choices. But what I have found, in both the medical field and the education field, is that there are a special group of professionals who truly want to make a difference.

Speaking about education, unfortunately the public schools are lacking that type of mission driven teacher. Just my observation as a mom of a student that has been in both private and pubic. I have found that these mission driven educators have so much more to offer students...even beyond typical classroom instruction.

If you want to talk about doctors, I have found the same to be true. Mission driven typically equals doctors practicing in academic hospitals. Money driven typically equals private practice physicians who are cash based. The doctors in hospitals like Hopkins are typically more ethical and skillful than those who have opened private practice and focus on cash flow vs. best interests for patient.

Interesting article about why private school teachers are willing to take less salary...bottom line--because the job conditions are better. They spend less time answering to bureaucracies and more time teaching and getting to know the students. http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/10/why-are-private-school-teachers-paid-less-than-public-school-teachers/280829/

That's good for them, if they can afford it.

Most teachers need money to pay the bills, health insurance for their families, and a retirement plan. My DH taught at a Big Three school for a long time before switching to MCPS for these (and other) reasons. His teaching is the same quality as it was at the Big Three, but he is paid a decent salary and can retire at some point.

There is no shame in needing a bona fide job. Most people do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Some think that teaching should be a "labor of love" - maybe because by and large, teachers are women.

In fact, teaching is a skilled professional job like many others. The measure of a good teacher is skill, not "mission."

No maybe about it.

[Anonymous]

Forever Grateful to the poster who put together this chart based on the at-a-glance sheets.

Because I am SO busy at work, I did some detective work. Rachel Carson ES is the largest ES in the county, with 1007 students. It is also the only one with an Assistant School Administrator (usually reserved for MS/HS). The next largest school, Spark Matsunaga ES, has 919 students and only two administrators. So, 950 could be a reasonable cutoff.

If anyone cares, here are the highest- and lowest-enrolled ESes:

1. RCES 1007
2. SMES 919
3. Rolling Terrace ES 899
3. Ashburton 899
5. College Gardens ES 868
6. South Lake ES 850
7. Ronald McNair ES 848
Four more 800+

Schools below 400:
13. Seven Locks ES 394
12. Cold Spring 335
11. Oak View ES 381
10. Candlewood 331
9. DuFief ES 325
8. Germantown ES 313
7. Belmont ES 309
6. Darnestown ES 309
5. Westover 306
4. Clarksburg 304
3. Damascus ES 299
2. Woodfield ES 298

aaaaand the number one smallest school in the county is.... Monacacy ES with 161 students and one class in each grade!

This is helpful but is there a link to data on average class size for these elementary schools?

[Anonymous]

Population density. If you want smaller classrooms, go to a less populated town or school district.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Population density. If you want smaller classrooms, go to a less populated town or school district.

Take a look at the average class sizes at Monocacy ES.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Forever Grateful to the poster who put together this chart based on the at-a-glance sheets.

Because I am SO busy at work, I did some detective work. Rachel Carson ES is the largest ES in the county, with 1007 students. It is also the only one with an Assistant School Administrator (usually reserved for MS/HS). The next largest school, Spark Matsunaga ES, has 919 students and only two administrators. So, 950 could be a reasonable cutoff.

If anyone cares, here are the highest- and lowest-enrolled ESes:

1. RCES 1007
2. SMES 919
3. Rolling Terrace ES 899
3. Ashburton 899
5. College Gardens ES 868
6. South Lake ES 850
7. Ronald McNair ES 848
Four more 800+

Schools below 400:
13. Seven Locks ES 394
12. Cold Spring 335
11. Oak View ES 381
10. Candlewood 331
9. DuFief ES 325
8. Germantown ES 313
7. Belmont ES 309
6. Darnestown ES 309
5. Westover 306
4. Clarksburg 304
3. Damascus ES 299
2. Woodfield ES 298

aaaaand the number one smallest school in the county is.... Monacacy ES with 161 students and one class in each grade!

This is helpful but is there a link to data on average class size for these elementary schools?

The thing is, this has nothing to do with class size. We are at a small school, but there are some very large classes. We still have to meet the same county requirements to get another class added. So the class size varies every year per grade and enrollment. One year there can be 30 kids in a class, and the next 20.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Beverly Farms building was a boondoggle, and a clear gift to the well-connected families in that area. The PP made a good point - why would MCPS approve spending millions for a new facility for an underenrolled school that had no business being replaced, when other clusters need more facilities to relieve overcrowding. It's ridiculous and shameful. To make matters worse, there are middle schools that desperatealy need expansion, but the county just put in brand new campuses at Hoover and Cabin John. It's a clear bias.

Nobody has yet answered the question about the condition of the Beverly Farms building before renovation. Cabin John was built in 1967 and had never been renovated. Hoover was built in 1965 and had never been renovated.

http://www.gazette.net/stories/06102009/potonew193635_32523.shtml
http://patch.com/maryland/potomac/photos-packing-up-herbert-hoover-middle-school

Seneca Valley HS (built in 1974) is under capacity and is getting renovated -- is that a clear gift to the well-connected families in eastern Germantown?

http://gis.mcpsmd.org/ServiceAreaMaps/SenecaValleyHS.pdf
http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/04104.pdf

It is a fair question and one that I have asked (county officials) but no one cited that as a reason for new construction. Certainly if the walls are crashing down it is way past time for a new building. But again, no one has ever said that was the problem at Beverly Farms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Sure. I chose to leave a lucrative career 10 years ago to raise my children. There are countless people who choose mission over money. If you don't understand the concept, then you must not have ann appreciation for something called sacrifice.

As the PP said, nobody goes into teaching for the pay. Including public-school teaching.

We don't tell doctors that they should be in it for the healing, not the money. We don't tell doctors that their interest in compensation shows that they lack vocation and a sense of sacrifice. Why do we think it's ok to tell teachers those things?

No we don't tell anyone what they should do when it comes to career choices. But what I have found, in both the medical field and the education field, is that there are a special group of professionals who truly want to make a difference.

Speaking about education, unfortunately the public schools are lacking that type of mission driven teacher. Just my observation as a mom of a student that has been in both private and pubic. I have found that these mission driven educators have so much more to offer students...even beyond typical classroom instruction.

If you want to talk about doctors, I have found the same to be true. Mission driven typically equals doctors practicing in academic hospitals. Money driven typically equals private practice physicians who are cash based. The doctors in hospitals like Hopkins are typically more ethical and skillful than those who have opened private practice and focus on cash flow vs. best interests for patient.

Interesting article about why private school teachers are willing to take less salary...bottom line--because the job conditions are better. They spend less time answering to bureaucracies and more time teaching and getting to know the students. http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/10/why-are-private-school-teachers-paid-less-than-public-school-teachers/280829/

That's good for them, if they can afford it.

Most teachers need money to pay the bills, health insurance for their families, and a retirement plan. My DH taught at a Big Three school for a long time before switching to MCPS for these (and other) reasons. His teaching is the same quality as it was at the Big Three, but he is paid a decent salary and can retire at some point.

There is no shame in needing a bona fide job. Most people do.

Teaching may be the same, but I'll bet he does less of it and more paperwork.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Sure. I chose to leave a lucrative career 10 years ago to raise my children. There are countless people who choose mission over money. If you don't understand the concept, then you must not have ann appreciation for something called sacrifice.

As the PP said, nobody goes into teaching for the pay. Including public-school teaching.

We don't tell doctors that they should be in it for the healing, not the money. We don't tell doctors that their interest in compensation shows that they lack vocation and a sense of sacrifice. Why do we think it's ok to tell teachers those things?

No we don't tell anyone what they should do when it comes to career choices. But what I have found, in both the medical field and the education field, is that there are a special group of professionals who truly want to make a difference.

Speaking about education, unfortunately the public schools are lacking that type of mission driven teacher. Just my observation as a mom of a student that has been in both private and pubic. I have found that these mission driven educators have so much more to offer students...even beyond typical classroom instruction.

If you want to talk about doctors, I have found the same to be true. Mission driven typically equals doctors practicing in academic hospitals. Money driven typically equals private practice physicians who are cash based. The doctors in hospitals like Hopkins are typically more ethical and skillful than those who have opened private practice and focus on cash flow vs. best interests for patient.

Interesting article about why private school teachers are willing to take less salary...bottom line--because the job conditions are better. They spend less time answering to bureaucracies and more time teaching and getting to know the students. http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/10/why-are-private-school-teachers-paid-less-than-public-school-teachers/280829/

That's good for them, if they can afford it.

Most teachers need money to pay the bills, health insurance for their families, and a retirement plan. My DH taught at a Big Three school for a long time before switching to MCPS for these (and other) reasons. His teaching is the same quality as it was at the Big Three, but he is paid a decent salary and can retire at some point.

There is no shame in needing a bona fide job. Most people do.

Teaching may be the same, but I'll bet he does less of it and more paperwork.

Actually, he is happier in his classroom now than he was in the Big Three school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:





Forever Grateful to the poster who put together this chart based on the at-a-glance sheets.

Because I am SO busy at work, I did some detective work. Rachel Carson ES is the largest ES in the county, with 1007 students. It is also the only one with an Assistant School Administrator (usually reserved for MS/HS). The next largest school, Spark Matsunaga ES, has 919 students and only two administrators. So, 950 could be a reasonable cutoff.

If anyone cares, here are the highest- and lowest-enrolled ESes:

1. RCES 1007
2. SMES 919
3. Rolling Terrace ES 899
3. Ashburton 899
5. College Gardens ES 868
6. South Lake ES 850
7. Ronald McNair ES 848
Four more 800+

Schools below 400:
13. Seven Locks ES 394
12. Cold Spring 335
11. Oak View ES 381
10. Candlewood 331
9. DuFief ES 325
8. Germantown ES 313
7. Belmont ES 309
6. Darnestown ES 309
5. Westover 306
4. Clarksburg 304
3. Damascus ES 299
2. Woodfield ES 298

aaaaand the number one smallest school in the county is.... Monacacy ES with 161 students and one class in each grade!


This is helpful but is there a link to data on average class size for these elementary schools?






The thing is, this has nothing to do with class size. We are at a small school, but there are some very large classes. We still have to meet the same county requirements to get another class added. So the class size varies every year per grade and enrollment. One year there can be 30 kids in a class, and the next 20.

Yes and if there are 30 kids in a class, that would drive up the average class size ratio. Still a useful indicator.

[Anonymous]

In Eastern MC where many ESL kids live, and property taxes are lower, class size is smaller...they pay less and get more

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In Eastern MC where many ESL kids live, and property taxes are lower, class size is smaller...they pay less and get more

They don't pay less. The property tax rate across the county is the same.