I don't understand the deal with MoCo class size

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How much are the property taxes where you're from in Boston? I would bet they are higher than MCPS. I have lived in the Chicago suburbs and Pittsburgh suburbs and MoCo taxes are much less. I moved from an $800,000 house in MoCo where the taxes were just under $8,000. An $800,000 in my Pittsburgh suburb would have taxes well over $25,000. So I don't think MoCo homeowners pay a ton in taxes and even a slight increase could make a difference.

So true. I'm from NY state, and the taxes there are staggeringly high. Around here, property taxes are such an afterthought- where I grew up, they could double your mortgage payment on a modest house and really affect your buying power.

I'm also a teacher at a W School, and in my opinion, class size is the biggest factor in determining success of the class. I currently have four classes with 33-34 students. I can barely fit through the aisles.

Boston-area towns do not have income tax, so the tax works out to be about the same. We pay a lot of income tax in MoCo, in addition to property tax.

Saying you pay a lot is relative. I lived in NJ and my taxes on a $400K home were $5K more than I pay now and I live in a house estimated $750K

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Beverly Farms building was a boondoggle, and a clear gift to the well-connected families in that area. The PP made a good point - why would MCPS approve spending millions for a new facility for an underenrolled school that had no business being replaced, when other clusters need more facilities to relieve overcrowding. It's ridiculous and shameful. To make matters worse, there are middle schools that desperatealy need expansion, but the county just put in brand new campuses at Hoover and Cabin John. It's a clear bias.

Nobody has yet answered the question about the condition of the Beverly Farms building before renovation. Cabin John was built in 1967 and had never been renovated. Hoover was built in 1965 and had never been renovated.

http://www.gazette.net/stories/06102009/potonew193635_32523.shtml
http://patch.com/maryland/potomac/photos-packing-up-herbert-hoover-middle-school

Seneca Valley HS (built in 1974) is under capacity and is getting renovated -- is that a clear gift to the well-connected families in eastern Germantown?

http://gis.mcpsmd.org/ServiceAreaMaps/SenecaValleyHS.pdf
http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/04104.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What about the MCPS teacher who sends her kids to the local parochial school? I would venture to say she is in it for the money...otherwise she would be teaching for less salary at the school where her kids are.

Do you work for pay? Do you like it when you get paid for your work? Generally getting paid is important to people who work for pay. Even to teachers! I don't think that's shameful. People should get paid for their work.

It's not about getting paid...all teachers are paid. It is about picking a position strictly because of salary level vs. a mission driven vocation which also pays a salary, but perhaps not as much.

Can you tell us what your profession is and how you chose a "mission driven" position rather than one that paid more money?

Sure. I chose to leave a lucrative career 10 years ago to raise my children. There are countless people who choose mission over money. If you don't understand the concept, then you must not have ann appreciation for something called sacrifice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How much are the property taxes where you're from in Boston? I would bet they are higher than MCPS. I have lived in the Chicago suburbs and Pittsburgh suburbs and MoCo taxes are much less. I moved from an $800,000 house in MoCo where the taxes were just under $8,000. An $800,000 in my Pittsburgh suburb would have taxes well over $25,000. So I don't think MoCo homeowners pay a ton in taxes and even a slight increase could make a difference.

So true. I'm from NY state, and the taxes there are staggeringly high. Around here, property taxes are such an afterthought- where I grew up, they could double your mortgage payment on a modest house and really affect your buying power.

I'm also a teacher at a W School, and in my opinion, class size is the biggest factor in determining success of the class. I currently have four classes with 33-34 students. I can barely fit through the aisles.

Boston-area towns do not have income tax, so the tax works out to be about the same. We pay a lot of income tax in MoCo, in addition to property tax.

Saying you pay a lot is relative. I lived in NJ and my taxes on a $400K home were $5K more than I pay now and I live in a house estimated $750K

I am originally from CA. We paid way more in income and sales tax than in MoCo. Sure, the property taxes are capped, but when most homes in good school districts are 1mil+, that's about $11K in property taxes, not to mention the "donation" of about $750 to $1000 per child per year you are expected to pay to the school districts to pay for extras like art, music.

[Anonymous]

^ CA poster here... forgot to add that CA spends about half per child than MCPS even with all the taxes we pay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Flora Singer ES has a capacity of 652. Garrett Park ES has a capacity of 753. Do you want elementary schools to be planned to be bigger than that?

Flora Singer has about 750 students, though. Better to build schools big enough to hold more students than to cram them in. It's public school, so if the kids are in MoCo they are entitled to an education. I think MoCo should have built these new schools expecting the population will rise, and in many cases rise dramatically. See the many threads on schools and real estate, with many Forest Glen/Flora Singer boosters (I'm one of them). We're very happy at the school, but it is something to think about.

FWIW, I went to elementary school with about 1,700 students. It was a great, blue ribbon school. It's all in how you structure it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Sure. I chose to leave a lucrative career 10 years ago to raise my children. There are countless people who choose mission over money. If you don't understand the concept, then you must not have ann appreciation for something called sacrifice.

As the PP said, nobody goes into teaching for the pay. Including public-school teaching.

We don't tell doctors that they should be in it for the healing, not the money. We don't tell doctors that their interest in compensation shows that they lack vocation and a sense of sacrifice. Why do we think it's ok to tell teachers those things?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Flora Singer has about 750 students, though. Better to build schools big enough to hold more students than to cram them in. It's public school, so if the kids are in MoCo they are entitled to an education. I think MoCo should have built these new schools expecting the population will rise, and in many cases rise dramatically. See the many threads on schools and real estate, with many Forest Glen/Flora Singer boosters (I'm one of them). We're very happy at the school, but it is something to think about.

FWIW, I went to elementary school with about 1,700 students. It was a great, blue ribbon school. It's all in how you structure it.

Good heavens. Where?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Flora Singer has about 750 students, though. Better to build schools big enough to hold more students than to cram them in. It's public school, so if the kids are in MoCo they are entitled to an education. I think MoCo should have built these new schools expecting the population will rise, and in many cases rise dramatically. See the many threads on schools and real estate, with many Forest Glen/Flora Singer boosters (I'm one of them). We're very happy at the school, but it is something to think about.

FWIW, I went to elementary school with about 1,700 students. It was a great, blue ribbon school. It's all in how you structure it.

Good heavens. Where?

Upstate NY small city. Class sizes were in the low 20s. Classes were organized into teams and those teams were put in 'houses' so you intermixed with a much smaller group of students. Houses had separate dedicated counselors, assistant principal, etc. It was not at all overwhelming.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How much are the property taxes where you're from in Boston? I would bet they are higher than MCPS. I have lived in the Chicago suburbs and Pittsburgh suburbs and MoCo taxes are much less. I moved from an $800,000 house in MoCo where the taxes were just under $8,000. An $800,000 in my Pittsburgh suburb would have taxes well over $25,000. So I don't think MoCo homeowners pay a ton in taxes and even a slight increase could make a difference.

So true. I'm from NY state, and the taxes there are staggeringly high. Around here, property taxes are such an afterthought- where I grew up, they could double your mortgage payment on a modest house and really affect your buying power.

I'm also a teacher at a W School, and in my opinion, class size is the biggest factor in determining success of the class. I currently have four classes with 33-34 students. I can barely fit through the aisles.

Boston-area towns do not have income tax, so the tax works out to be about the same. We pay a lot of income tax in MoCo, in addition to property tax.

Saying you pay a lot is relative. I lived in NJ and my taxes on a $400K home were $5K more than I pay now and I live in a house estimated $750K

RE Boston area vs. DC area, once you account for income taxes, the net tax bill is about the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What about the MCPS teacher who sends her kids to the local parochial school? I would venture to say she is in it for the money...otherwise she would be teaching for less salary at the school where her kids are.

Do you work for pay? Do you like it when you get paid for your work? Generally getting paid is important to people who work for pay. Even to teachers! I don't think that's shameful. People should get paid for their work.

It's not about getting paid...all teachers are paid. It is about picking a position strictly because of salary level vs. a mission driven vocation which also pays a salary, but perhaps not as much.

Can you tell us what your profession is and how you chose a "mission driven" position rather than one that paid more money?

Sure. I chose to leave a lucrative career 10 years ago to raise my children. There are countless people who choose mission over money. If you don't understand the concept, then you must not have ann appreciation for something called sacrifice.

While this is true, it does not support the assertion that someone who is "vocation-driven" and gives up money to teach is a better teacher than someone who is both vocation-driven and needs income to live (as the vast majority of us do).

Moreover, a person who is not "vocation-driven" may in fact be a fabulous teacher if s/he is very skilled at her/his job.

You set up false dichotomies. Teaching for the "vocation" without regard to the money is the privilege of those who have money available to them from other sources (as do, e.g. SAHMs). That doesn't make them better teachers. It just means they have financial options that many others do not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Sure. I chose to leave a lucrative career 10 years ago to raise my children. There are countless people who choose mission over money. If you don't understand the concept, then you must not have ann appreciation for something called sacrifice.

As the PP said, nobody goes into teaching for the pay. Including public-school teaching.

We don't tell doctors that they should be in it for the healing, not the money. We don't tell doctors that their interest in compensation shows that they lack vocation and a sense of sacrifice. Why do we think it's ok to tell teachers those things?

Some think that teaching should be a "labor of love" - maybe because by and large, teachers are women.

In fact, teaching is a skilled professional job like many others. The measure of a good teacher is skill, not "mission."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Sure. I chose to leave a lucrative career 10 years ago to raise my children. There are countless people who choose mission over money. If you don't understand the concept, then you must not have ann appreciation for something called sacrifice.

As the PP said, nobody goes into teaching for the pay. Including public-school teaching.

We don't tell doctors that they should be in it for the healing, not the money. We don't tell doctors that their interest in compensation shows that they lack vocation and a sense of sacrifice. Why do we think it's ok to tell teachers those things?

No we don't tell anyone what they should do when it comes to career choices. But what I have found, in both the medical field and the education field, is that there are a special group of professionals who truly want to make a difference.

Speaking about education, unfortunately the public schools are lacking that type of mission driven teacher. Just my observation as a mom of a student that has been in both private and pubic. I have found that these mission driven educators have so much more to offer students...even beyond typical classroom instruction.

If you want to talk about doctors, I have found the same to be true. Mission driven typically equals doctors practicing in academic hospitals. Money driven typically equals private practice physicians who are cash based. The doctors in hospitals like Hopkins are typically more ethical and skillful than those who have opened private practice and focus on cash flow vs. best interests for patient.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Flora Singer has about 750 students, though. Better to build schools big enough to hold more students than to cram them in. It's public school, so if the kids are in MoCo they are entitled to an education. I think MoCo should have built these new schools expecting the population will rise, and in many cases rise dramatically. See the many threads on schools and real estate, with many Forest Glen/Flora Singer boosters (I'm one of them). We're very happy at the school, but it is something to think about.

FWIW, I went to elementary school with about 1,700 students. It was a great, blue ribbon school. It's all in how you structure it.

Good heavens. Where?

Upstate NY small city. Class sizes were in the low 20s. Classes were organized into teams and those teams were put in 'houses' so you intermixed with a much smaller group of students. Houses had separate dedicated counselors, assistant principal, etc. It was not at all overwhelming.

Downingtown, PA area has taken an innovative approach to the booming population - they have a school just for 6th grade. It has many classes and a really great atmosphere. I'm not saying its the answer, but innovative thinking is important.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Sure. I chose to leave a lucrative career 10 years ago to raise my children. There are countless people who choose mission over money. If you don't understand the concept, then you must not have ann appreciation for something called sacrifice.

As the PP said, nobody goes into teaching for the pay. Including public-school teaching.

We don't tell doctors that they should be in it for the healing, not the money. We don't tell doctors that their interest in compensation shows that they lack vocation and a sense of sacrifice. Why do we think it's ok to tell teachers those things?

No we don't tell anyone what they should do when it comes to career choices. But what I have found, in both the medical field and the education field, is that there are a special group of professionals who truly want to make a difference.

Speaking about education, unfortunately the public schools are lacking that type of mission driven teacher. Just my observation as a mom of a student that has been in both private and pubic. I have found that these mission driven educators have so much more to offer students...even beyond typical classroom instruction.

If you want to talk about doctors, I have found the same to be true. Mission driven typically equals doctors practicing in academic hospitals. Money driven typically equals private practice physicians who are cash based. The doctors in hospitals like Hopkins are typically more ethical and skillful than those who have opened private practice and focus on cash flow vs. best interests for patient.

Interesting article about why private school teachers are willing to take less salary...bottom line--because the job conditions are better. They spend less time answering to bureaucracies and more time teaching and getting to know the students. http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/10/why-are-private-school-teachers-paid-less-than-public-school-teachers/280829/