MCPS policy on not returning quizzes, tests and exams to students

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

+1. And if the students study the old tests so that they can do the new one with these changes, that is good enough for me. That is called learning.

I call it cheating, unless MCPS makes all of the old tests available to everybody. And if MCPS does make all of the old tests available to everybody, I call it memorizing what's on the test.

In what way is that cheating, how creative do you think algebra is? If you change around the functions and numbers, and the kids still know how to do them, isn't that your goal?

They should make the old tests available to everybody. After all, there is nothing really new in algebra, but there is also no danger in running out of problems to ask on an exam.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

+1. And if the students study the old tests so that they can do the new one with these changes, that is good enough for me. That is called learning.

I call it cheating, unless MCPS makes all of the old tests available to everybody. And if MCPS does make all of the old tests available to everybody, I call it memorizing what's on the test.

In what way is that cheating, how creative do you think algebra is? If you change around the functions and numbers, and the kids still know how to do them, isn't that your goal?

They should make the old tests available to everybody. After all, there is nothing really new in algebra, but there is also no danger in running out of problems to ask on an exam.

+1
PP is silly. If we want a kid to learn to solve for X in equations like: 2X + 4 = 10, then one year we could use that equation. The next year, we could use 3x + 1 = 10
See how I did that? I just rewrote one question on an algebra exam! It took me 30 seconds!
So, if the exam had 20 questions, I could do it in about 10 minutes. Let's be generous and give me an hour. Whoo-boy.
And if the kid had access to last year's exam, then they would see that this year's exam would include questions like 2X + 4 = 10. And that would not be cheating, because it's a different question. And yet, it's instructive in the sense that it shows what kind of question we want them to be able to solve.
THIS. IS. JUST. NOT. THAT. HARD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

+1. And if the students study the old tests so that they can do the new one with these changes, that is good enough for me. That is called learning.

I call it cheating, unless MCPS makes all of the old tests available to everybody. And if MCPS does make all of the old tests available to everybody, I call it memorizing what's on the test.

In what way is that cheating, how creative do you think algebra is? If you change around the functions and numbers, and the kids still know how to do them, isn't that your goal?

They should make the old tests available to everybody. After all, there is nothing really new in algebra, but there is also no danger in running out of problems to ask on an exam.

+1
PP is silly. If we want a kid to learn to solve for X in equations like: 2X + 4 = 10, then one year we could use that equation. The next year, we could use 3x + 1 = 10
See how I did that? I just rewrote one question on an algebra exam! It took me 30 seconds!
So, if the exam had 20 questions, I could do it in about 10 minutes. Let's be generous and give me an hour. Whoo-boy.
And if the kid had access to last year's exam, then they would see that this year's exam would include questions like 2X + 4 = 10. And that would not be cheating, because it's a different question. And yet, it's instructive in the sense that it shows what kind of question we want them to be able to solve.
THIS. IS. JUST. NOT. THAT. HARD.

So, then, why can't the kids just study the same materials that they've been using in class all along? Homework, class work and notes? Why the need for the actual test papers if the problems are just variations on a theme?

[Anonymous]

Feeling like running my head into a brick wall with these parents that are justifying that it is okay that they don't see any of their kids tests. Must be nice to have kids that get a 100% on everything

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

+1. And if the students study the old tests so that they can do the new one with these changes, that is good enough for me. That is called learning.

I call it cheating, unless MCPS makes all of the old tests available to everybody. And if MCPS does make all of the old tests available to everybody, I call it memorizing what's on the test.

In what way is that cheating, how creative do you think algebra is? If you change around the functions and numbers, and the kids still know how to do them, isn't that your goal?

They should make the old tests available to everybody. After all, there is nothing really new in algebra, but there is also no danger in running out of problems to ask on an exam.

+1
PP is silly. If we want a kid to learn to solve for X in equations like: 2X + 4 = 10, then one year we could use that equation. The next year, we could use 3x + 1 = 10
See how I did that? I just rewrote one question on an algebra exam! It took me 30 seconds!
So, if the exam had 20 questions, I could do it in about 10 minutes. Let's be generous and give me an hour. Whoo-boy.
And if the kid had access to last year's exam, then they would see that this year's exam would include questions like 2X + 4 = 10. And that would not be cheating, because it's a different question. And yet, it's instructive in the sense that it shows what kind of question we want them to be able to solve.
THIS. IS. JUST. NOT. THAT. HARD.

So, then, why can't the kids just study the same materials that they've been using in class all along? Homework, class work and notes? Why the need for the actual test papers if the problems are just variations on a theme?

Or the school-level formatives, which ARE returned? Why is that not enough practice and preparation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

+1. And if the students study the old tests so that they can do the new one with these changes, that is good enough for me. That is called learning.

I call it cheating, unless MCPS makes all of the old tests available to everybody. And if MCPS does make all of the old tests available to everybody, I call it memorizing what's on the test.

In what way is that cheating, how creative do you think algebra is? If you change around the functions and numbers, and the kids still know how to do them, isn't that your goal?

They should make the old tests available to everybody. After all, there is nothing really new in algebra, but there is also no danger in running out of problems to ask on an exam.

+1
PP is silly. If we want a kid to learn to solve for X in equations like: 2X + 4 = 10, then one year we could use that equation. The next year, we could use 3x + 1 = 10
See how I did that? I just rewrote one question on an algebra exam! It took me 30 seconds!
So, if the exam had 20 questions, I could do it in about 10 minutes. Let's be generous and give me an hour. Whoo-boy.
And if the kid had access to last year's exam, then they would see that this year's exam would include questions like 2X + 4 = 10. And that would not be cheating, because it's a different question. And yet, it's instructive in the sense that it shows what kind of question we want them to be able to solve.
THIS. IS. JUST. NOT. THAT. HARD.

So, then, why can't the kids just study the same materials that they've been using in class all along? Homework, class work and notes? Why the need for the actual test papers if the problems are just variations on a theme?

Or the school-level formatives, which ARE returned? Why is that not enough practice and preparation?

IF in fact, the school-level formatives or quizzes were the same kind of questions, then it would be fine. But that's a big "if" that you don't actually know is true. And also, "if" the teachers actually don't make mistakes in grading the quizzes (remember, these are people we don't trust to make a new algebra question every year, so not sure where the blind faith on this score comes from), then this is also fine. But you know what else is fine? Looking at the kid's test, seeing where they made mistakes, and learning from that. It's valuable.
Here's another question -- maybe the kid gets nervous for big tests. maybe the quizzes are smaller or different in some way and the kid does well on them. But then blows the final exam. It would be helpful for a parent to see the exam so that the parent can see whether or not the questions are similar, to figure out if the problem is: 1) different kinds of questions were on the final, and the kid doesn't know that material; or 2) the kid got those kinds of questions right on the quizzes, but then got them wrong on the final; or 3) the final had the same kinds of questions, but in a tighter time frame, thus indicating the kid has issues with doing things quickly enough.
That's just one example of why this would be helpful, off the top of my head. We could come up with dozens of others. What's the reticence?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Feeling like running my head into a brick wall with these parents that are justifying that it is okay that they don't see any of their kids tests. Must be nice to have kids that get a 100% on everything

Are you reading anything above? All school-level formative assessments are returned. So...it is not true that parents "don't see any of their kids [sic] tests." You have an opportunity to help your kid study and prepare for county-level for natives and summatives. Are you taking advantage of that? I did. Since you're here claiming you can't see "any tests" I assume you have not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

+1. And if the students study the old tests so that they can do the new one with these changes, that is good enough for me. That is called learning.

I call it cheating, unless MCPS makes all of the old tests available to everybody. And if MCPS does make all of the old tests available to everybody, I call it memorizing what's on the test.

In what way is that cheating, how creative do you think algebra is? If you change around the functions and numbers, and the kids still know how to do them, isn't that your goal?

They should make the old tests available to everybody. After all, there is nothing really new in algebra, but there is also no danger in running out of problems to ask on an exam.

+1
PP is silly. If we want a kid to learn to solve for X in equations like: 2X + 4 = 10, then one year we could use that equation. The next year, we could use 3x + 1 = 10
See how I did that? I just rewrote one question on an algebra exam! It took me 30 seconds!
So, if the exam had 20 questions, I could do it in about 10 minutes. Let's be generous and give me an hour. Whoo-boy.
And if the kid had access to last year's exam, then they would see that this year's exam would include questions like 2X + 4 = 10. And that would not be cheating, because it's a different question. And yet, it's instructive in the sense that it shows what kind of question we want them to be able to solve.
THIS. IS. JUST. NOT. THAT. HARD.

So, then, why can't the kids just study the same materials that they've been using in class all along? Homework, class work and notes? Why the need for the actual test papers if the problems are just variations on a theme?

Or the school-level formatives, which ARE returned? Why is that not enough practice and preparation?

IF in fact, the school-level formatives or quizzes were the same kind of questions, then it would be fine. But that's a big "if" that you don't actually know is true. And also, "if" the teachers actually don't make mistakes in grading the quizzes (remember, these are people we don't trust to make a new algebra question every year, so not sure where the blind faith on this score comes from), then this is also fine. But you know what else is fine? Looking at the kid's test, seeing where they made mistakes, and learning from that. It's valuable.
Here's another question -- maybe the kid gets nervous for big tests. maybe the quizzes are smaller or different in some way and the kid does well on them. But then blows the final exam. It would be helpful for a parent to see the exam so that the parent can see whether or not the questions are similar, to figure out if the problem is: 1) different kinds of questions were on the final, and the kid doesn't know that material; or 2) the kid got those kinds of questions right on the quizzes, but then got them wrong on the final; or 3) the final had the same kinds of questions, but in a tighter time frame, thus indicating the kid has issues with doing things quickly enough.
That's just one example of why this would be helpful, off the top of my head. We could come up with dozens of others. What's the reticence?

At the risk of bring accused of making up an imaginary child, I asked my MSer about the county-level test she just took, and she shrugged and said it was the same as the other school tests she'd taken.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

+1. And if the students study the old tests so that they can do the new one with these changes, that is good enough for me. That is called learning.

I call it cheating, unless MCPS makes all of the old tests available to everybody. And if MCPS does make all of the old tests available to everybody, I call it memorizing what's on the test.

In what way is that cheating, how creative do you think algebra is? If you change around the functions and numbers, and the kids still know how to do them, isn't that your goal?

They should make the old tests available to everybody. After all, there is nothing really new in algebra, but there is also no danger in running out of problems to ask on an exam.

+1
PP is silly. If we want a kid to learn to solve for X in equations like: 2X + 4 = 10, then one year we could use that equation. The next year, we could use 3x + 1 = 10
See how I did that? I just rewrote one question on an algebra exam! It took me 30 seconds!
So, if the exam had 20 questions, I could do it in about 10 minutes. Let's be generous and give me an hour. Whoo-boy.
And if the kid had access to last year's exam, then they would see that this year's exam would include questions like 2X + 4 = 10. And that would not be cheating, because it's a different question. And yet, it's instructive in the sense that it shows what kind of question we want them to be able to solve.
THIS. IS. JUST. NOT. THAT. HARD.

So, then, why can't the kids just study the same materials that they've been using in class all along? Homework, class work and notes? Why the need for the actual test papers if the problems are just variations on a theme?

Or the school-level formatives, which ARE returned? Why is that not enough practice and preparation?

Then why we have such massive failure rates for the finals? What makes the county level tests so special? Well, we don't know because we cannot see them.

[Anonymous]

Children should be learning the subject matter. So, if they are taking algebra, they should be learning it well enough that they can correctly answer questions based on the topics they have studied no matter how the questions are worded or constructed. Studying test questions will enable them to answer similar test questions but the goal should be for them to learn algebra, not just know how to answer particular types of questions on a test. If they really learn and understand algebra, they will be able to answer algebra questions no matter what format. I am sure they have been doing lots of algebra problems in class; they can study those problems and even make up their own, another good study method. The goal should be to master the subject studied, not to simply do well on a test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

+1
PP is silly. If we want a kid to learn to solve for X in equations like: 2X + 4 = 10, then one year we could use that equation. The next year, we could use 3x + 1 = 10
See how I did that? I just rewrote one question on an algebra exam! It took me 30 seconds!
So, if the exam had 20 questions, I could do it in about 10 minutes. Let's be generous and give me an hour. Whoo-boy.
And if the kid had access to last year's exam, then they would see that this year's exam would include questions like 2X + 4 = 10. And that would not be cheating, because it's a different question. And yet, it's instructive in the sense that it shows what kind of question we want them to be able to solve.
THIS. IS. JUST. NOT. THAT. HARD.

OK, so why do parents have to be able to have the county-wide exam at home to know that students should be able to solve a problem like 2X + 4 = 10 or 3X + 1 = 10 to do well on the exam? Why do the class materials not suffice? Do students not do problems like these in class? And if they don't, should there be problems like these on the test?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Children should be learning the subject matter. So, if they are taking algebra, they should be learning it well enough that they can correctly answer questions based on the topics they have studied no matter how the questions are worded or constructed. Studying test questions will enable them to answer similar test questions but the goal should be for them to learn algebra, not just know how to answer particular types of questions on a test. If they really learn and understand algebra, they will be able to answer algebra questions no matter what format. I am sure they have been doing lots of algebra problems in class; they can study those problems and even make up their own, another good study method. The goal should be to master the subject studied, not to simply do well on a test.

Sure, that's the goal, but we know that that goal is not being achieved, for most anyway. So why not let them figure out why they're making mistakes? This doesn't need to be something we hide the ball on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

+1
PP is silly. If we want a kid to learn to solve for X in equations like: 2X + 4 = 10, then one year we could use that equation. The next year, we could use 3x + 1 = 10
See how I did that? I just rewrote one question on an algebra exam! It took me 30 seconds!
So, if the exam had 20 questions, I could do it in about 10 minutes. Let's be generous and give me an hour. Whoo-boy.
And if the kid had access to last year's exam, then they would see that this year's exam would include questions like 2X + 4 = 10. And that would not be cheating, because it's a different question. And yet, it's instructive in the sense that it shows what kind of question we want them to be able to solve.
THIS. IS. JUST. NOT. THAT. HARD.

OK, so why do parents have to be able to have the county-wide exam at home to know that students should be able to solve a problem like 2X + 4 = 10 or 3X + 1 = 10 to do well on the exam? Why do the class materials not suffice? Do students not do problems like these in class? And if they don't, should there be problems like these on the test?

I don't know, because I'm not allowed to see the county wide exam. See? As a parent, I can't know whether the other tests/class preparation is adequate to prepare a kid for the county test, because I'm not allowed to see the county test. Then, the county test is taken, lots of kids don't do well, and then we can't see it then either.
The class materials might suffice, or they might not. Depending on the class, the teacher, the kid, and the test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

+1. And if the students study the old tests so that they can do the new one with these changes, that is good enough for me. That is called learning.

I call it cheating, unless MCPS makes all of the old tests available to everybody. And if MCPS does make all of the old tests available to everybody, I call it memorizing what's on the test.

In what way is that cheating, how creative do you think algebra is? If you change around the functions and numbers, and the kids still know how to do them, isn't that your goal?

They should make the old tests available to everybody. After all, there is nothing really new in algebra, but there is also no danger in running out of problems to ask on an exam.

+1
PP is silly. If we want a kid to learn to solve for X in equations like: 2X + 4 = 10, then one year we could use that equation. The next year, we could use 3x + 1 = 10
See how I did that? I just rewrote one question on an algebra exam! It took me 30 seconds!
So, if the exam had 20 questions, I could do it in about 10 minutes. Let's be generous and give me an hour. Whoo-boy.
And if the kid had access to last year's exam, then they would see that this year's exam would include questions like 2X + 4 = 10. And that would not be cheating, because it's a different question. And yet, it's instructive in the sense that it shows what kind of question we want them to be able to solve.
THIS. IS. JUST. NOT. THAT. HARD.

So, then, why can't the kids just study the same materials that they've been using in class all along? Homework, class work and notes? Why the need for the actual test papers if the problems are just variations on a theme?

Or the school-level formatives, which ARE returned? Why is that not enough practice and preparation?

IF in fact, the school-level formatives or quizzes were the same kind of questions, then it would be fine. But that's a big "if" that you don't actually know is true. And also, "if" the teachers actually don't make mistakes in grading the quizzes (remember, these are people we don't trust to make a new algebra question every year, so not sure where the blind faith on this score comes from), then this is also fine. But you know what else is fine? Looking at the kid's test, seeing where they made mistakes, and learning from that. It's valuable.
Here's another question -- maybe the kid gets nervous for big tests. maybe the quizzes are smaller or different in some way and the kid does well on them. But then blows the final exam. It would be helpful for a parent to see the exam so that the parent can see whether or not the questions are similar, to figure out if the problem is: 1) different kinds of questions were on the final, and the kid doesn't know that material; or 2) the kid got those kinds of questions right on the quizzes, but then got them wrong on the final; or 3) the final had the same kinds of questions, but in a tighter time frame, thus indicating the kid has issues with doing things quickly enough.
That's just one example of why this would be helpful, off the top of my head. We could come up with dozens of others. What's the reticence?

At the risk of bring accused of making up an imaginary child, I asked my MSer about the county-level test she just took, and she shrugged and said it was the same as the other school tests she'd taken.

Whoa What great lines of communication you have with one another. It sure make me feel better that I can't see the major tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I don't know, because I'm not allowed to see the county wide exam. See? As a parent, I can't know whether the other tests/class preparation is adequate to prepare a kid for the county test, because I'm not allowed to see the county test. Then, the county test is taken, lots of kids don't do well, and then we can't see it then either.
The class materials might suffice, or they might not. Depending on the class, the teacher, the kid, and the test.

But you are allowed to see the county-wide exam. You make an appointment, you go to the school, and you see the county-wide exam. Right?