DC area law schools

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:FWIW, The current USNWR rankings are
Georgetown 14 (tied with others)
GW and Mason tied at 31 (with several others, including W&M)
Catholic 71 (tied)
American 104

I went to AU law when it was ranked in the top 50 and liked it, have had good jobs since graduation. But it was outrageously expensive then and seems to be so now. I can’t fathom what it has done to fall so far in the rankings.

If I had it to do all over again and wanted to be in this area, I would live in VA and go to Mason law school. Well ranked and a lot less expensive.

Yeah, what's going on at AU Law?

Likely nothing is "going on at AU Law," the rankings have never meant much beyond top 15 or so and they have shifted like crazy for many, many schools in recent history, and usually for no obvious reason. I attended Tulane when it was just inside the first tier at 40 and now it's 78. Nothing "going on" (although there were some issues when Katrina hit, that was over 20 years ago).

LOL. The "first tier" stops way short of no. 40.

Not when I went to law school it didn't. It referred to the top 50, not the top 14 like now.

When did you go to law school? Fifty years ago?

No, not 50 years ago.

When did you go to law school? Yeah, that’s what I thought. Never. You’re one of the mommies, right? Obsessing over things like this because you want your kid to go to law school? Yep. That’s what I thought.

I am a law school graduate.

Sure, Jan.

Why on earth is that so hard to believe? This board—like this town—is full of lawyers.

If you disagree with what I’m saying, fine, prove me wrong. Simply writing me off as a non-lawyer when it isn’t true is hardly a lawyerly approach to an argument.

“law school grad” = didn’t pass the bar, right? That’s you.

You said I didn't go to law school. That's the question I answered. Now you're saying I didn't pass the bar, so I'll answer that one too. Yes, I passed the bar. The DC bar to be exact.

Weirdo.

Most big law lawyers took NY bar. Nobody really takes DC bar. You just waive into it later.

Bullshit. More than 2200 sat for the most recent DC bar exam. Of the 51 state bars and DC, only 5 (NY, CA, IL, FL and TX) had more people sit for their exams. All five are much larger jurisdictions.

Maybe life has changed in the quarter century since I took the bar but zero of the first year class in the DC office of the firm that I joined out of law school took the DC bar. We were pretty evenly split between NY, MD, VA and home state other than NY/MD/VA. Then we waived into DC.

How big was the first year class in your DC office? Was it big law? And how do you know the number is zero? Were you stalking your colleagues?

I joined a DC-based Biglaw firm before you. I took the the DC bar. So did many of my fellow first years. Yes, many others elected to waive in. But I couldn't give you an exact breakdown because I didn't stalk my colleagues.

18 in the DC office. AM Law took 50 firm. Not stalking. We actually spoke to one another - including "hey, I'm heading back to State X this week to be sworn in".

Pretty extraordinary for you to remember what all 18 first years in your law firm did over a quarter century ago to become bar members.

I have a good memory. Only one from that class (not me) remains at that firm. Five were laid off during the 2002-3 bloodbath. Two are at small firms. Two of us are Big Law partners. Four or five are at different federal agencies. Last I heard, one opened a gym in his home town. Still in touch with more than half of my classmates.

[Anonymous]

Howard is obviously a great diversity pipeline school as they have huge BL numbers.

YMMV though.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:FWIW, The current USNWR rankings are
Georgetown 14 (tied with others)
GW and Mason tied at 31 (with several others, including W&M)
Catholic 71 (tied)
American 104

I went to AU law when it was ranked in the top 50 and liked it, have had good jobs since graduation. But it was outrageously expensive then and seems to be so now. I can’t fathom what it has done to fall so far in the rankings.

If I had it to do all over again and wanted to be in this area, I would live in VA and go to Mason law school. Well ranked and a lot less expensive.

Yeah, what's going on at AU Law?

Likely nothing is "going on at AU Law," the rankings have never meant much beyond top 15 or so and they have shifted like crazy for many, many schools in recent history, and usually for no obvious reason. I attended Tulane when it was just inside the first tier at 40 and now it's 78. Nothing "going on" (although there were some issues when Katrina hit, that was over 20 years ago).

LOL. The "first tier" stops way short of no. 40.

Not when I went to law school it didn't. It referred to the top 50, not the top 14 like now.

When did you go to law school? Fifty years ago?

No, not 50 years ago.

When did you go to law school? Yeah, that’s what I thought. Never. You’re one of the mommies, right? Obsessing over things like this because you want your kid to go to law school? Yep. That’s what I thought.

DP
I went to law school 30 years (been practicing ever since) and I would not recommend my kid go to law school if they couldn't go to a pretty good one and top 50 ain't it.
Top 10 maybe top 20,but not top 50

I agree. I went to law school 25 years ago (at T10), and I would have the same advice for my kids.

I’m surprised that you both say this. I am also a practicing lawyer for 30 plus years, as is my spouse, as are many friends, and of course colleagues. I’ve worked in big law and in house, and know many attorneys well who have worked in both areas plus government, nonprofits, smaller firms, and left the law entirely. I’m sure your circles are similar.

But I have the opposite view as you do. The more experienced I am, the more I encounter attorneys in senior positions who have graduated from a variety of law schools. It’s a big world out there! I see the obsession with T14 schools usually at mid level associates and below (probably because they are trying to distinguish themselves). Those with more experience realize that there is a lot more to being strong in one’s field beyond where they went to law school. Many attorneys from top schools just don’t have it or haven’t yet found their niche, and conversely many great attorneys graduated from GW, American, Fordham, so on.

I do find that I can usually tell in meetings when someone is/has been a practicing attorney (regardless of the school) because they approach the matter in an analytic way. another saying that non-lawyers don’t do that or that all lawyers do, but there is a consistency.

I’d discourage my own kids from going to law school entirely, but that’s a different post

Both DH and I are lawyers and would not want either of our 3 DC to go to law school. But not going to T14 will limit where you end up. DH says that at his big law firm, they do not recruit anywhere below Georgetown. There are absolutely no grads or lawyers from non top law schools except for a few rain making partners who have a chip on their shoulder but went to a lower ranked law school and are only at the firm because of they business they bring in their particular niche. And you can tell by tier of firm, how analytical the lawyers are. DH has worked at several big law firms in the span of 30 years and has noticed quality of associates declines with reputation of firm, which is really reputation of law schools they came from.

There is not a single large firm in any major market where there are "no grads or lawyers from non stop law schools" other than rainmakers. Zero. None. Not in DC, not in NYC, not in LA, not in Chicago. Nowhere. The demand for associates in Biglaw exceeds the supply of T14 graduates, requiring that EVERY SINGLE FIRM dip a little lower.

I'm not saying that you're better off attending a T14, but you absolutely can get a job at ANY major law firm in the United States coming out of a lower ranked one. Yes, you will have to have done well, often extraordinarily well. But it can be done and IS being done.

Prove me wrong. Provide a link to a Biglaw firm without a single associate who graduated from a law school below Georgetown. I'll wait.

This is not true.

Because you say so?

Show your math.

You are a child. Actually, the burden is on you because you posted something false and now can’t prove it.

Google oversupply lawyers and start reading:

The legal profession is currently experiencing high competition due to an oversupply of law graduates relative to traditional, high-paying, "Big Law" jobs. While over 32,000 students graduate annually in the U.S. alone, many struggle to secure legal positions, particularly as technological advancements make firms more efficient. This creates a challenging, high-debt, and increasingly competitive market, often described as having too many lawyers and not enough jobs, although some argue that opportunities still exist outside of traditional practice.

Key factors contributing to this trend include:
Over-enrollment: Law schools continued to increase or maintain high enrollment numbers despite market fluctuations.

High Debt, Low Demand: Significant student loan debt burdens graduates, making lower-paying legal or public interest jobs less attractive, driving them away from the field.
Structural Shifts: The legal job market has changed, reducing the availability of traditional, high-salaried positions.

Market Disconnection: A major gap exists between the high number of graduates and the demand for legal services, especially in areas where they are needed most. “

See my post below. Your AI exercise above doesn't even address the issue. The issue isn't whether there's a lawyer glut generally. Of course there is. But we're talking about another thing entirely -- whether there are enough T14 law graduates to satisfy Biglaw hiring needs. And there clearly aren't. Try this search on AI:[b]

"Are there enough T14 law graduates to fill all available Biglaw positions?" There's your answer.

Law prof here. You are wrong. Please provide statistical proof so I can show my T14 students who can’t find a job.

I already provided the "proof." And you"re not a T14 law prof.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The Above the Law Rankings are heavily weighted by outcomes—e.g. employment after graduation—and GMU is not ranked in the top 50. It wasn’t ranked in the top 50 last year either.

Georgetown, GWU, William & Mary and Howard are all ranked both years.

https://abovethelaw.com/2025/06/2025-top-50-law-school-rankings/

No one cites Above the Law for law school rankings. No one. It’s USNWR, and top 14, that everyone talks about, where Scalia is ranked 31z https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/george-mason-university-03159

Right. GMU is ranked 31st but still does a relatively shitty job of getting its grads top jobs. That's why I cited ATL. For that metric only.

If you had bothered to google “Scalia job placement “ before shooting off your mouth, AI could have instructed you thusly:

Antonin Scalia Law School (George Mason University) boasts strong employment outcomes, with 97.5% of the Class of 2023 employed, primarily in private practice ($149,784 median salary) and the public sector ($74,672 median salary). The school excels in judicial clerkships, securing 102 for 2025-2028 terms, and leverages a strong DC-area network and focus on law


Employment and Salary Highlights
High Employment Rate: 99.4% of the Class of 2023 were employed or in graduate studies shortly after graduation, according to the NALP report.

Employment Sectors (Class of 2023): 49.1% entered the private sector, while 50.9% entered the public sector, including government and public interest.
Salaries: The median salary for the private sector was $149,784, while the median for the public sector was $74,672.
Location: Most graduates are employed in the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area.


Key Opportunities and Clerkships
Clerkships: Strong performance in placing graduates in federal and state courts, with 72 federal clerkships (including 31 U.S. Courts of Appeals) secured for the 2025-2028 terms.
Law & Economics Focus: The school's emphasis on the intersection of law and economics provides unique networking opportunities through the Law & Economics Center.

Networking and Recruitment: Active Fall and Spring recruiting programs are available, with opportunities to connect with top law firms and government agencies, note users on Reddit.

Career Services: The Career and Academic Services Office provides resources for job placement, including counseling and on-campus interviews.

Networking: The school connects students with employers through various, often intimate, settings.

For more detailed data, you can view the official 2023 NALP report and employment statistics on the Scalia Law School website.

That’s puffery on their own website.

No, it’s not. it’s AI from a simple google: Scalia Law jobs. You could have checked that yourself before posting.

Yea, AI generated it largely from Scalia's own website. That's how AI works. Duh.

DP Please show me how it’s wrong - I’ve taught and recruited there. Looks right to me. It has 30 students right now in federal clerkships and one on SCOTUS. Very few law schools can say that.

Ok, here's how you're wrong. According to the most recently available statistics -- its 509 employment summary for 2024 -- it only has 15 grads in federal clerkship. Not 30. You're including state and other court clerkships, which don't carry nearly the same prestige.

https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/career/abaemploymentsummary2024.pdf

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:FWIW, The current USNWR rankings are
Georgetown 14 (tied with others)
GW and Mason tied at 31 (with several others, including W&M)
Catholic 71 (tied)
American 104

I went to AU law when it was ranked in the top 50 and liked it, have had good jobs since graduation. But it was outrageously expensive then and seems to be so now. I can’t fathom what it has done to fall so far in the rankings.

If I had it to do all over again and wanted to be in this area, I would live in VA and go to Mason law school. Well ranked and a lot less expensive.

Yeah, what's going on at AU Law?

Likely nothing is "going on at AU Law," the rankings have never meant much beyond top 15 or so and they have shifted like crazy for many, many schools in recent history, and usually for no obvious reason. I attended Tulane when it was just inside the first tier at 40 and now it's 78. Nothing "going on" (although there were some issues when Katrina hit, that was over 20 years ago).

LOL. The "first tier" stops way short of no. 40.

Not when I went to law school it didn't. It referred to the top 50, not the top 14 like now.

When did you go to law school? Fifty years ago?

No, not 50 years ago.

When did you go to law school? Yeah, that’s what I thought. Never. You’re one of the mommies, right? Obsessing over things like this because you want your kid to go to law school? Yep. That’s what I thought.

DP
I went to law school 30 years (been practicing ever since) and I would not recommend my kid go to law school if they couldn't go to a pretty good one and top 50 ain't it.
Top 10 maybe top 20,but not top 50

I agree. I went to law school 25 years ago (at T10), and I would have the same advice for my kids.

I’m surprised that you both say this. I am also a practicing lawyer for 30 plus years, as is my spouse, as are many friends, and of course colleagues. I’ve worked in big law and in house, and know many attorneys well who have worked in both areas plus government, nonprofits, smaller firms, and left the law entirely. I’m sure your circles are similar.

But I have the opposite view as you do. The more experienced I am, the more I encounter attorneys in senior positions who have graduated from a variety of law schools. It’s a big world out there! I see the obsession with T14 schools usually at mid level associates and below (probably because they are trying to distinguish themselves). Those with more experience realize that there is a lot more to being strong in one’s field beyond where they went to law school. Many attorneys from top schools just don’t have it or haven’t yet found their niche, and conversely many great attorneys graduated from GW, American, Fordham, so on.

I do find that I can usually tell in meetings when someone is/has been a practicing attorney (regardless of the school) because they approach the matter in an analytic way. another saying that non-lawyers don’t do that or that all lawyers do, but there is a consistency.

I’d discourage my own kids from going to law school entirely, but that’s a different post

Both DH and I are lawyers and would not want either of our 3 DC to go to law school. But not going to T14 will limit where you end up. DH says that at his big law firm, they do not recruit anywhere below Georgetown. There are absolutely no grads or lawyers from non top law schools except for a few rain making partners who have a chip on their shoulder but went to a lower ranked law school and are only at the firm because of they business they bring in their particular niche. And you can tell by tier of firm, how analytical the lawyers are. DH has worked at several big law firms in the span of 30 years and has noticed quality of associates declines with reputation of firm, which is really reputation of law schools they came from.

There is not a single large firm in any major market where there are "no grads or lawyers from non stop law schools" other than rainmakers. Zero. None. Not in DC, not in NYC, not in LA, not in Chicago. Nowhere. The demand for associates in Biglaw exceeds the supply of T14 graduates, requiring that EVERY SINGLE FIRM dip a little lower.

I'm not saying that you're better off attending a T14, but you absolutely can get a job at ANY major law firm in the United States coming out of a lower ranked one. Yes, you will have to have done well, often extraordinarily well. But it can be done and IS being done.

Prove me wrong. Provide a link to a Biglaw firm without a single associate who graduated from a law school below Georgetown. I'll wait.

This is not true.

Because you say so?

Show your math.

You are a child. Actually, the burden is on you because you posted something false and now can’t prove it.

Google oversupply lawyers and start reading:

The legal profession is currently experiencing high competition due to an oversupply of law graduates relative to traditional, high-paying, "Big Law" jobs. While over 32,000 students graduate annually in the U.S. alone, many struggle to secure legal positions, particularly as technological advancements make firms more efficient. This creates a challenging, high-debt, and increasingly competitive market, often described as having too many lawyers and not enough jobs, although some argue that opportunities still exist outside of traditional practice.

Key factors contributing to this trend include:
Over-enrollment: Law schools continued to increase or maintain high enrollment numbers despite market fluctuations.

High Debt, Low Demand: Significant student loan debt burdens graduates, making lower-paying legal or public interest jobs less attractive, driving them away from the field.
Structural Shifts: The legal job market has changed, reducing the availability of traditional, high-salaried positions.

Market Disconnection: A major gap exists between the high number of graduates and the demand for legal services, especially in areas where they are needed most. “

See my post below. Your AI exercise above doesn't even address the issue. The issue isn't whether there's a lawyer glut generally. Of course there is. But we're talking about another thing entirely -- whether there are enough T14 law graduates to satisfy Biglaw hiring needs. And there clearly aren't. Try this search on AI:[b]

"Are there enough T14 law graduates to fill all available Biglaw positions?" There's your answer.

Law prof here. You are wrong. Please provide statistical proof so I can show my T14 students who can’t find a job.

I already provided the "proof." And you"re not a T14 law prof.

Here are some numbers that may be helpful.

In a recent year, the T14 enrolled a total of 4070 students in their entering classes: https://www.spiveyconsulting.com/blog-post/how-many-people-actually-go-to-the-t14#:~:text=Yale:,56%2C900%20=%207.88%25%20of%20applicant%20pool

In 2025, Biglaw hired more than 6200 summer associates: https://www.chambers-associate.com/law-firms/summer-hiring-numbers

This isn't even subject to serious debate.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FWIW, The current USNWR rankings are
Georgetown 14 (tied with others)
GW and Mason tied at 31 (with several others, including W&M)
Catholic 71 (tied)
American 104

I went to AU law when it was ranked in the top 50 and liked it, have had good jobs since graduation. But it was outrageously expensive then and seems to be so now. I can’t fathom what it has done to fall so far in the rankings.

If I had it to do all over again and wanted to be in this area, I would live in VA and go to Mason law school. Well ranked and a lot less expensive.

Yeah, what's going on at AU Law?

Likely nothing is "going on at AU Law," the rankings have never meant much beyond top 15 or so and they have shifted like crazy for many, many schools in recent history, and usually for no obvious reason. I attended Tulane when it was just inside the first tier at 40 and now it's 78. Nothing "going on" (although there were some issues when Katrina hit, that was over 20 years ago).

LOL. The "first tier" stops way short of no. 40.

Not when I went to law school it didn't. It referred to the top 50, not the top 14 like now.

When did you go to law school? Fifty years ago?

No, not 50 years ago.

When did you go to law school? Yeah, that’s what I thought. Never. You’re one of the mommies, right? Obsessing over things like this because you want your kid to go to law school? Yep. That’s what I thought.

DP
I went to law school 30 years (been practicing ever since) and I would not recommend my kid go to law school if they couldn't go to a pretty good one and top 50 ain't it.
Top 10 maybe top 20,but not top 50

I agree. I went to law school 25 years ago (at T10), and I would have the same advice for my kids.

I’m surprised that you both say this. I am also a practicing lawyer for 30 plus years, as is my spouse, as are many friends, and of course colleagues. I’ve worked in big law and in house, and know many attorneys well who have worked in both areas plus government, nonprofits, smaller firms, and left the law entirely. I’m sure your circles are similar.

But I have the opposite view as you do. The more experienced I am, the more I encounter attorneys in senior positions who have graduated from a variety of law schools. It’s a big world out there! I see the obsession with T14 schools usually at mid level associates and below (probably because they are trying to distinguish themselves). Those with more experience realize that there is a lot more to being strong in one’s field beyond where they went to law school. Many attorneys from top schools just don’t have it or haven’t yet found their niche, and conversely many great attorneys graduated from GW, American, Fordham, so on.

I do find that I can usually tell in meetings when someone is/has been a practicing attorney (regardless of the school) because they approach the matter in an analytic way. another saying that non-lawyers don’t do that or that all lawyers do, but there is a consistency.

I’d discourage my own kids from going to law school entirely, but that’s a different post

Both DH and I are lawyers and would not want either of our 3 DC to go to law school. But not going to T14 will limit where you end up. DH says that at his big law firm, they do not recruit anywhere below Georgetown. There are absolutely no grads or lawyers from non top law schools except for a few rain making partners who have a chip on their shoulder but went to a lower ranked law school and are only at the firm because of they business they bring in their particular niche. And you can tell by tier of firm, how analytical the lawyers are. DH has worked at several big law firms in the span of 30 years and has noticed quality of associates declines with reputation of firm, which is really reputation of law schools they came from.

There is not a single large firm in any major market where there are "no grads or lawyers from non stop law schools" other than rainmakers. Zero. None. Not in DC, not in NYC, not in LA, not in Chicago. Nowhere. The demand for associates in Biglaw exceeds the supply of T14 graduates, requiring that EVERY SINGLE FIRM dip a little lower.

I'm not saying that you're better off attending a T14, but you absolutely can get a job at ANY major law firm in the United States coming out of a lower ranked one. Yes, you will have to have done well, often extraordinarily well. But it can be done and IS being done.

Prove me wrong. Provide a link to a Biglaw firm without a single associate who graduated from a law school below Georgetown. I'll wait.

This is not true.

Because you say so?

Show your math.

You are a child. Actually, the burden is on you because you posted something false and now can’t prove it.

Google oversupply lawyers and start reading:

The legal profession is currently experiencing high competition due to an oversupply of law graduates relative to traditional, high-paying, "Big Law" jobs. While over 32,000 students graduate annually in the U.S. alone, many struggle to secure legal positions, particularly as technological advancements make firms more efficient. This creates a challenging, high-debt, and increasingly competitive market, often described as having too many lawyers and not enough jobs, although some argue that opportunities still exist outside of traditional practice.

Key factors contributing to this trend include:
Over-enrollment: Law schools continued to increase or maintain high enrollment numbers despite market fluctuations.

High Debt, Low Demand: Significant student loan debt burdens graduates, making lower-paying legal or public interest jobs less attractive, driving them away from the field.
Structural Shifts: The legal job market has changed, reducing the availability of traditional, high-salaried positions.

Market Disconnection: A major gap exists between the high number of graduates and the demand for legal services, especially in areas where they are needed most. “

See my post below. Your AI exercise above doesn't even address the issue. The issue isn't whether there's a lawyer glut generally. Of course there is. But we're talking about another thing entirely -- whether there are enough T14 law graduates to satisfy Biglaw hiring needs. And there clearly aren't. Try this search on AI:[b]

"Are there enough T14 law graduates to fill all available Biglaw positions?" There's your answer.

Law prof here. You are wrong. Please provide statistical proof so I can show my T14 students who can’t find a job.

I already provided the "proof." And you"re not a T14 law prof.

DP

There are plenty of students at the bottom of Georgetown that don't get biglaw jobs despite best efforts. Same holds true for most of the T-14 law schools.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The Above the Law Rankings are heavily weighted by outcomes—e.g. employment after graduation—and GMU is not ranked in the top 50. It wasn’t ranked in the top 50 last year either.

Georgetown, GWU, William & Mary and Howard are all ranked both years.

https://abovethelaw.com/2025/06/2025-top-50-law-school-rankings/

No one cites Above the Law for law school rankings. No one. It’s USNWR, and top 14, that everyone talks about, where Scalia is ranked 31z https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/george-mason-university-03159

Right. GMU is ranked 31st but still does a relatively shitty job of getting its grads top jobs. That's why I cited ATL. For that metric only.

If you had bothered to google “Scalia job placement “ before shooting off your mouth, AI could have instructed you thusly:

Antonin Scalia Law School (George Mason University) boasts strong employment outcomes, with 97.5% of the Class of 2023 employed, primarily in private practice ($149,784 median salary) and the public sector ($74,672 median salary). The school excels in judicial clerkships, securing 102 for 2025-2028 terms, and leverages a strong DC-area network and focus on law


Employment and Salary Highlights
High Employment Rate: 99.4% of the Class of 2023 were employed or in graduate studies shortly after graduation, according to the NALP report.

Employment Sectors (Class of 2023): 49.1% entered the private sector, while 50.9% entered the public sector, including government and public interest.
Salaries: The median salary for the private sector was $149,784, while the median for the public sector was $74,672.
Location: Most graduates are employed in the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area.


Key Opportunities and Clerkships
Clerkships: Strong performance in placing graduates in federal and state courts, with 72 federal clerkships (including 31 U.S. Courts of Appeals) secured for the 2025-2028 terms.
Law & Economics Focus: The school's emphasis on the intersection of law and economics provides unique networking opportunities through the Law & Economics Center.

Networking and Recruitment: Active Fall and Spring recruiting programs are available, with opportunities to connect with top law firms and government agencies, note users on Reddit.

Career Services: The Career and Academic Services Office provides resources for job placement, including counseling and on-campus interviews.

Networking: The school connects students with employers through various, often intimate, settings.

For more detailed data, you can view the official 2023 NALP report and employment statistics on the Scalia Law School website.

I love how someone claims to be such an expert and then cites AI. If you are a lawyer, shame on you. But you probably are not.

Anyways, there was something telling in your AI summary. The median salary for the private sector for Scalia grads was just $149,784. That's really really low for first year lawyers, and waaaay below big law salaries. This tells me Scalia grads are not doing so well in the job market.

Also I have worked in big law. We did not hire at Scalia. I have also taught at Scalia. The quality of the students was highly variable. The top 2-3 students in each class were quite good, the bottom few were really ... not good. The big group in the middle were just ok. The only ones comparable to my colleages in biglaw and my classmates at at T14 law school were the 2-3 at the top.

This board is full of biglaw attorneys and frankly, you sound young and full of yourself.
Sure we don't recruit a ton from GMU but look at the partners at almost every law firm and you will see a farily broad sampling of law schools. The first year associates are frequently from big name law schools but our laterals frequently went to places like GMU. It's unlikely to happen to anyu particular GMU student but it's not limited to 2 or 3 per class.

Ha! I can assure you I am not young. I'm sure you meant to insult me but I'm old enough to take being called young as a compliment. So thanks, I guess?

Why am I full of myself to tell the truth that my biglaw firm did not recruit from Scalia? Why is this so triggering to you?

Yes, attorneys from lesser ranked law schools can do well and make it to biglaw but it's a harder path and fewer of them do. And there are many many more from the top schools. That is just the reality. Sorry it's hard for you to accept.

I didn't say you look young. I said you sound young as in immature. I would bet money you are an associate.
You can tell people that GMU is not likely to lead to a starting job in biglaw without making the additional unnecessary assertion that all but 2 or 3 of the students at GMU are not "comparable to your colleagues in biglaw" (that's thepart that makes you sound full of yourself).
I have taught as an adjunct at both GMU and Georgetown and the difference between the top of GMU and the bottom of Georgetown can be hard to see.

How much money do you want to bet? Because you would be wrong. I guess we can't all be at your maturity level. It takes a really mature person to sling insults anonymously on the internet.

I think you are making my point. The top of GMU was comparable to my classmates at a T14 school and my colleages at BigLaw (sorry that is so triggering to you). So it makes sense that it was hard for you to see the difference between the bottom of GU and the top of GMU. At my T14 law school, nearly everyone in the class was quite talented. While at GMU, only the tippy top of the class was.

Omg, it’s the “Tippy top” mom again. Sorry, you lost all credibility now. And why the need to bash on Scalia? It serves its purpose and has done very well. You do sound immature

Well, I don't really care if I lost credibility with YOU. Why are you so resistant to the observations of someone who actually taught at GMU? I have an informed opinion based on teaching multiple classes and grading a LOT of student work at Scalia. I agree the law school serves its purpose and I wish its grads well. But my opinion stands as to the quality of its students.

Why are YOU so bent on promoting Scalia?

[Anonymous]

Howard is second to Georgetown for big law placement. And contrary to popular belief, not all students are black.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Howard is second to Georgetown for big law placement. And contrary to popular belief, not all students are black.

Really? Ahead of GW? Cite?

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Anonymous wrote:FWIW, The current USNWR rankings are
Georgetown 14 (tied with others)
GW and Mason tied at 31 (with several others, including W&M)
Catholic 71 (tied)
American 104

I went to AU law when it was ranked in the top 50 and liked it, have had good jobs since graduation. But it was outrageously expensive then and seems to be so now. I can’t fathom what it has done to fall so far in the rankings.

If I had it to do all over again and wanted to be in this area, I would live in VA and go to Mason law school. Well ranked and a lot less expensive.

Yeah, what's going on at AU Law?

Likely nothing is "going on at AU Law," the rankings have never meant much beyond top 15 or so and they have shifted like crazy for many, many schools in recent history, and usually for no obvious reason. I attended Tulane when it was just inside the first tier at 40 and now it's 78. Nothing "going on" (although there were some issues when Katrina hit, that was over 20 years ago).

LOL. The "first tier" stops way short of no. 40.

Not when I went to law school it didn't. It referred to the top 50, not the top 14 like now.

When did you go to law school? Fifty years ago?

No, not 50 years ago.

When did you go to law school? Yeah, that’s what I thought. Never. You’re one of the mommies, right? Obsessing over things like this because you want your kid to go to law school? Yep. That’s what I thought.

DP
I went to law school 30 years (been practicing ever since) and I would not recommend my kid go to law school if they couldn't go to a pretty good one and top 50 ain't it.
Top 10 maybe top 20,but not top 50

I agree. I went to law school 25 years ago (at T10), and I would have the same advice for my kids.

I’m surprised that you both say this. I am also a practicing lawyer for 30 plus years, as is my spouse, as are many friends, and of course colleagues. I’ve worked in big law and in house, and know many attorneys well who have worked in both areas plus government, nonprofits, smaller firms, and left the law entirely. I’m sure your circles are similar.

But I have the opposite view as you do. The more experienced I am, the more I encounter attorneys in senior positions who have graduated from a variety of law schools. It’s a big world out there! I see the obsession with T14 schools usually at mid level associates and below (probably because they are trying to distinguish themselves). Those with more experience realize that there is a lot more to being strong in one’s field beyond where they went to law school. Many attorneys from top schools just don’t have it or haven’t yet found their niche, and conversely many great attorneys graduated from GW, American, Fordham, so on.

I do find that I can usually tell in meetings when someone is/has been a practicing attorney (regardless of the school) because they approach the matter in an analytic way. another saying that non-lawyers don’t do that or that all lawyers do, but there is a consistency.

I’d discourage my own kids from going to law school entirely, but that’s a different post

Both DH and I are lawyers and would not want either of our 3 DC to go to law school. But not going to T14 will limit where you end up. DH says that at his big law firm, they do not recruit anywhere below Georgetown. There are absolutely no grads or lawyers from non top law schools except for a few rain making partners who have a chip on their shoulder but went to a lower ranked law school and are only at the firm because of they business they bring in their particular niche. And you can tell by tier of firm, how analytical the lawyers are. DH has worked at several big law firms in the span of 30 years and has noticed quality of associates declines with reputation of firm, which is really reputation of law schools they came from.

There is not a single large firm in any major market where there are "no grads or lawyers from non stop law schools" other than rainmakers. Zero. None. Not in DC, not in NYC, not in LA, not in Chicago. Nowhere. The demand for associates in Biglaw exceeds the supply of T14 graduates, requiring that EVERY SINGLE FIRM dip a little lower.

I'm not saying that you're better off attending a T14, but you absolutely can get a job at ANY major law firm in the United States coming out of a lower ranked one. Yes, you will have to have done well, often extraordinarily well. But it can be done and IS being done.

Prove me wrong. Provide a link to a Biglaw firm without a single associate who graduated from a law school below Georgetown. I'll wait.

This is not true.

Because you say so?

Show your math.

You are a child. Actually, the burden is on you because you posted something false and now can’t prove it.

Google oversupply lawyers and start reading:

The legal profession is currently experiencing high competition due to an oversupply of law graduates relative to traditional, high-paying, "Big Law" jobs. While over 32,000 students graduate annually in the U.S. alone, many struggle to secure legal positions, particularly as technological advancements make firms more efficient. This creates a challenging, high-debt, and increasingly competitive market, often described as having too many lawyers and not enough jobs, although some argue that opportunities still exist outside of traditional practice.

Key factors contributing to this trend include:
Over-enrollment: Law schools continued to increase or maintain high enrollment numbers despite market fluctuations.

High Debt, Low Demand: Significant student loan debt burdens graduates, making lower-paying legal or public interest jobs less attractive, driving them away from the field.
Structural Shifts: The legal job market has changed, reducing the availability of traditional, high-salaried positions.

Market Disconnection: A major gap exists between the high number of graduates and the demand for legal services, especially in areas where they are needed most. “

See my post below. Your AI exercise above doesn't even address the issue. The issue isn't whether there's a lawyer glut generally. Of course there is. But we're talking about another thing entirely -- whether there are enough T14 law graduates to satisfy Biglaw hiring needs. And there clearly aren't. Try this search on AI:[b]

"Are there enough T14 law graduates to fill all available Biglaw positions?" There's your answer.

Law prof here. You are wrong. Please provide statistical proof so I can show my T14 students who can’t find a job.

I already provided the "proof." And you"re not a T14 law prof.

DP

There are plenty of students at the bottom of Georgetown that don't get biglaw jobs despite best efforts. Same holds true for most of the T-14 law schools.

Right. Because employers prefer top students from non-T14 schools over bottom students from T14. Further proving that the T14 alone doesn't produce enough grads to fully staff Biglaw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Howard is second to Georgetown for big law placement. And contrary to popular belief, not all students are black.

Really? Ahead of GW? Cite?

According to its 509 report, in 2024 it awarded 154 JD degrees. 133 of the graduates identified as black alone, and none identified as white alone. The remaining 21 identified as either hispanic or multi-racial.

So, no, Howard Law is not all black. But it's over 85 percent black and essentially 100 percent POC and that's why it attracts so many recruiters.

[Anonymous]

Ok but you can be much lower in the class at a T14 and get a high paying biglaw job. And before anyone says there are jobs outside of biglaw, that is true. But they don’t tend to pay as well and a lot of students need to at least start at biglaw to pay off loans.

At my T10 law school, nearly the entire class got great jobs right out of school. Most in biglaw, then some in clerkships, and a few in government (by choice). Most of us had multiple biglaw offers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ok but you can be much lower in the class at a T14 and get a high paying biglaw job. And before anyone says there are jobs outside of biglaw, that is true. But they don’t tend to pay as well and a lot of students need to at least start at biglaw to pay off loans.

At my T10 law school, nearly the entire class got great jobs right out of school. Most in biglaw, then some in clerkships, and a few in government (by choice). Most of us had multiple biglaw offers.

As one of my former law professors would respond: "that's an excellent answer to a question that no one asked."

We all know that Biglaw goes deeper into the class in the T14 for hiring than most non-T14. That doesn't mean there aren't plenty of Biglaw jobs available to solid non-T14 grads. Take Notre Dame, for example. The 2024 graduating class had 180 students. Seventy-four went directly to Biglaw jobs, and another 31 got federal court clerkships. That's 105 out of 180.

Several other non T14s, including USC, Fordham, BC, BU and yes Howard do just as well or better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP here. For example, I just looked at Cravath's website. At least 32 current associates are from "below" Georgtown. BYU, Ohio State, Syracuse, Buffalo, etc. And there aren't a lot of Biglaw firms more prestigious and selective than Cravath.

Maybe you heard of connections and social credits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP here. For example, I just looked at Cravath's website. At least 32 current associates are from "below" Georgtown. BYU, Ohio State, Syracuse, Buffalo, etc. And there aren't a lot of Biglaw firms more prestigious and selective than Cravath.

Maybe you heard of connections and social credits.

Honestly you people are just relentless, ridiculous and clueless. There’s no way you work in Biglaw.

Cravath did not hire 32 graduates of second tier law schools with subpar credentials because of “connections and social credits.” They hired them because they excelled in their law schools and Cravath needs the bodies.