Hating donut hole life: athletic recruiting version

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really hard to feel sorry for people when the athletic hook doesn’t work for them.

It’s not hard if you’re not an ahole because you know how much work the kid put into it.

Our kids who study hard, act in plays, win speech & debate competitions, tutor peers, and write for the paper also are kids who put a lot a lot of work in. they just don't feel as entitled to gain admission with lower academic standards!

why should students whose EC is sports gain admission with lower academic standards to play sports that don't bring any benefit to the school's other students? who watches cross-country, volleyball, squash, etc.?

at least diversity helps everyone by not having people in bubbles.

As a parent of a D1 athlete and another who was heavily involved in school ECs, there’s no comparison. The D1 athlete’s commitment was exponentially higher, and the non-athlete child would agree. The pressure she was under to perform at her sport and to peak at exactly the right time in state and national level competition was nothing like writing for the school paper.

I’m extremely proud of both of them, but the fact that the athlete’s grades lagged in comparison to the EC kid is completely justified considering the level of commitment. And it made sense to me that the athlete ended up at an Ivy with slightly lower grades and considerably lower test scores, whereas the other student with the 1500 SAT did not.

That is so wrong. So wrong. It's sad that you, a reasonably intelligent adult, would think like this.

Being one of the best athletes in your sport ever in your 100 year old HS, and one of the top 75 athletes in your sport in the country (among thousands of participants) in your graduation year AND finishing in the top 5 percent of your class at the same time is more impressive than finishing in the top 2 percent and writing for the school paper. I witnessed the determination that both took, and it just is. No one could ever convince me otherwise.

LOL you really think that being one of the "best athletes" at an old high school (who cares if it's 100 years old??) is better than being a more impressive student and journalist. Please. You have no idea what kind of determination, creativity, team play, empathy, intelligence and stamina you need to write for a school paper.

[Anonymous]

The benefit of athletics for DIII is generally to have a 15-25% chance at admission as opposed to a 5-7% chance. The hooks are known, no one can really blame anyone for positioning their kid to increase their chances

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really hard to feel sorry for people when the athletic hook doesn’t work for them.

It’s not hard if you’re not an ahole because you know how much work the kid put into it.

Our kids who study hard, act in plays, win speech & debate competitions, tutor peers, and write for the paper also are kids who put a lot a lot of work in. they just don't feel as entitled to gain admission with lower academic standards!

why should students whose EC is sports gain admission with lower academic standards to play sports that don't bring any benefit to the school's other students? who watches cross-country, volleyball, squash, etc.?

at least diversity helps everyone by not having people in bubbles.

Because sports are institutional priorities at many schools, particularly old private schools. And, these schools have every right to their priorities. Nobody complains about athletes at Towson because people don't care about athletes and athletics except when they consume seats at a school they covet. Seems like simple envy and jealousy to me.

It’s a hook, an unearned advantage that gets a student a special admissions process they otherwise wouldn’t have gotten.

It’s part of American athlete worship culture.

Athletics are an institutional priority for these schools and have been for 150 years. Why can't you get that through your head?

That’s exactly what I said. It’s a hook. Something the institution values but is not earned by the student, like legacy or big donor family or faculty child.

It is absolutely earned by the student. Their admissions process starts years before typical kids and a pool which started out with hundreds gets narrowed down to just a few. It is far harder than most people realize, especially for the Ivies and NESCAC you need to be a top student as well.

[Anonymous]

just play for their school team, even if it's just JV.

thanks for the insight, op.

yall know private equity has stakes in travel sports. right? it's a scam

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really hard to feel sorry for people when the athletic hook doesn’t work for them.

It’s not hard if you’re not an ahole because you know how much work the kid put into it.

Our kids who study hard, act in plays, win speech & debate competitions, tutor peers, and write for the paper also are kids who put a lot a lot of work in. they just don't feel as entitled to gain admission with lower academic standards!

why should students whose EC is sports gain admission with lower academic standards to play sports that don't bring any benefit to the school's other students? who watches cross-country, volleyball, squash, etc.?

at least diversity helps everyone by not having people in bubbles.

As a parent of a D1 athlete and another who was heavily involved in school ECs, there’s no comparison. The D1 athlete’s commitment was exponentially higher, and the non-athlete child would agree. The pressure she was under to perform at her sport and to peak at exactly the right time in state and national level competition was nothing like writing for the school paper.

I’m extremely proud of both of them, but the fact that the athlete’s grades lagged in comparison to the EC kid is completely justified considering the level of commitment. And it made sense to me that the athlete ended up at an Ivy with slightly lower grades and considerably lower test scores, whereas the other student with the 1500 SAT did not.

That is so wrong. So wrong. It's sad that you, a reasonably intelligent adult, would think like this.

Being one of the best athletes in your sport ever in your 100 year old HS, and one of the top 75 athletes in your sport in the country (among thousands of participants) in your graduation year AND finishing in the top 5 percent of your class at the same time is more impressive than finishing in the top 2 percent and writing for the school paper. I witnessed the determination that both took, and it just is. No one could ever convince me otherwise.

We had one of those at my kids feeder. The kid was an all state athlete, top student and all round great kid. I don't know how she did it but it was impressive. Good for you and your child.

Thank you. Despite the accomplishments, I don’t think she enjoyed her HS experience all that much. It was mostly just a grind for her, and much different than the vision people have of hooked athletes receiving accolades and waltzing into selective schools.

My EC kid on the other hand absolutely loved his HS experience, writing for the paper and running student government and having an active social life. My athlete daughter rarely went to a school dance or other function because they were in season. Those are the things many athletes don’t get to experience. When not competing on the weekends, she was studying. She was my oldest, and I didn’t expect my other kids to follow the same path, nor did they want to.

I understand that. I know the kid above because my kid played on the same team with her. Mine had a great result and plays at a NESCAC but I don't think that she really enjoyed HS either. She actually missed her prom because of recruiting. The other girl somehow made everything just look easy. Super impressive kid.

[Anonymous]

Another mistake OP may be making is not realizing that if they don’t get the sport admission they want (elite school admission, full scholarship, whatever) their sports is just another EC and not likely enough to get them into a top academic school even with good grades/stats. What is expected of kids applying to elite schools in terms of ECs is ridiculous but that is what happens in an arms race.

I would suggest parents put that travel sports money into college savings if they cannot afford the school their child wants just like any other parent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really hard to feel sorry for people when the athletic hook doesn’t work for them.

It’s not hard if you’re not an ahole because you know how much work the kid put into it.

Our kids who study hard, act in plays, win speech & debate competitions, tutor peers, and write for the paper also are kids who put a lot a lot of work in. they just don't feel as entitled to gain admission with lower academic standards!

why should students whose EC is sports gain admission with lower academic standards to play sports that don't bring any benefit to the school's other students? who watches cross-country, volleyball, squash, etc.?

at least diversity helps everyone by not having people in bubbles.

As a parent of a D1 athlete and another who was heavily involved in school ECs, there’s no comparison. The D1 athlete’s commitment was exponentially higher, and the non-athlete child would agree. The pressure she was under to perform at her sport and to peak at exactly the right time in state and national level competition was nothing like writing for the school paper.

I’m extremely proud of both of them, but the fact that the athlete’s grades lagged in comparison to the EC kid is completely justified considering the level of commitment. And it made sense to me that the athlete ended up at an Ivy with slightly lower grades and considerably lower test scores, whereas the other student with the 1500 SAT did not.

That is so wrong. So wrong. It's sad that you, a reasonably intelligent adult, would think like this.

Being one of the best athletes in your sport ever in your 100 year old HS, and one of the top 75 athletes in your sport in the country (among thousands of participants) in your graduation year AND finishing in the top 5 percent of your class at the same time is more impressive than finishing in the top 2 percent and writing for the school paper. I witnessed the determination that both took, and it just is. No one could ever convince me otherwise.

LOL you really think that being one of the "best athletes" at an old high school (who cares if it's 100 years old??) is better than being a more impressive student and journalist. Please. You have no idea what kind of determination, creativity, team play, empathy, intelligence and stamina you need to write for a school paper.

Funny you say that. I do. I was the editor in chief of my college newspaper. It came out weekly. Every Friday morning and was like a full time job. You need the skills you mention sure, but it’s not the same as competing at the state and national level. You clearly don’t have any understanding or appreciation of what is required of an athlete and don’t have my perspective, so you’ll never get it. It’s not worth my time trying to explain it to you, but see my post about about how my daughter actually experienced high school if you want to try.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really hard to feel sorry for people when the athletic hook doesn’t work for them.

It’s not hard if you’re not an ahole because you know how much work the kid put into it.

Our kids who study hard, act in plays, win speech & debate competitions, tutor peers, and write for the paper also are kids who put a lot a lot of work in. they just don't feel as entitled to gain admission with lower academic standards!

why should students whose EC is sports gain admission with lower academic standards to play sports that don't bring any benefit to the school's other students? who watches cross-country, volleyball, squash, etc.?

at least diversity helps everyone by not having people in bubbles.

As a parent of a D1 athlete and another who was heavily involved in school ECs, there’s no comparison. The D1 athlete’s commitment was exponentially higher, and the non-athlete child would agree. The pressure she was under to perform at her sport and to peak at exactly the right time in state and national level competition was nothing like writing for the school paper.

I’m extremely proud of both of them, but the fact that the athlete’s grades lagged in comparison to the EC kid is completely justified considering the level of commitment. And it made sense to me that the athlete ended up at an Ivy with slightly lower grades and considerably lower test scores, whereas the other student with the 1500 SAT did not.

That is so wrong. So wrong. It's sad that you, a reasonably intelligent adult, would think like this.

Being one of the best athletes in your sport ever in your 100 year old HS, and one of the top 75 athletes in your sport in the country (among thousands of participants) in your graduation year AND finishing in the top 5 percent of your class at the same time is more impressive than finishing in the top 2 percent and writing for the school paper. I witnessed the determination that both took, and it just is. No one could ever convince me otherwise.

LOL you really think that being one of the "best athletes" at an old high school (who cares if it's 100 years old??) is better than being a more impressive student and journalist. Please. You have no idea what kind of determination, creativity, team play, empathy, intelligence and stamina you need to write for a school paper.

Funny you say that. I do. I was the editor in chief of my college newspaper. It came out weekly. Every Friday morning and was like a full time job. You need the skills you mention sure, but it’s not the same as competing at the state and national level. You clearly don’t have any understanding or appreciation of what is required of an athlete and don’t have my perspective, so you’ll never get it. It’s not worth my time trying to explain it to you, but see my post about about how my daughter actually experienced high school if you want to try.

As the editor in chief of a five day a week college daily I say hold my beer. It was a ton of work, stress, etc. Because there was a ton of management, leadership, etc. involved. I could do everything perfectly but if a reporter forgot to show up to cover an event or I took a day off and something really bad got published, it was on me. One day a week is a joke.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is at an Ivy playing her sport. She got zero financial aid. She's now a sophomore and has been a really hard road. She doesn't get much playing time and doesn't get along with her teammates very much. The students at the school are a little weird because they are so so smart and she still working on making friends. The grass is not always greener. In hindsight, I would have encouraged her skip to D1 and just go in-state as a regular applicant.

this is the problem when Ivies and other top schools relax the academic standards too much for athletes. Then if the kid doesn’t continue with the sport then they also don’t really fit in/match the level of the rest of the kids who got in on academic merit. This was my experience at one of the Ivies.

You weren't smart enough but somehow got in?

Academic standards at the Ivies are relaxed somewhat but still plenty high enough. I have to call Bull.

No, I went to Harvard, not as an athlete. Two of my freshman roommates were varsity athletes. I have other friends of friends/ roommates who were athletes. you almost never saw athletes in STEM majors. Athletes suffered from an image as “dumb jocks” who couldn’t keep up intellectually or in other extracurricular pursuits. They just kind of kept to their own cliques.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really hard to feel sorry for people when the athletic hook doesn’t work for them.

It’s not hard if you’re not an ahole because you know how much work the kid put into it.

Our kids who study hard, act in plays, win speech & debate competitions, tutor peers, and write for the paper also are kids who put a lot a lot of work in. they just don't feel as entitled to gain admission with lower academic standards!

why should students whose EC is sports gain admission with lower academic standards to play sports that don't bring any benefit to the school's other students? who watches cross-country, volleyball, squash, etc.?

at least diversity helps everyone by not having people in bubbles.

As a parent of a D1 athlete and another who was heavily involved in school ECs, there’s no comparison. The D1 athlete’s commitment was exponentially higher, and the non-athlete child would agree. The pressure she was under to perform at her sport and to peak at exactly the right time in state and national level competition was nothing like writing for the school paper.

I’m extremely proud of both of them, but the fact that the athlete’s grades lagged in comparison to the EC kid is completely justified considering the level of commitment. And it made sense to me that the athlete ended up at an Ivy with slightly lower grades and considerably lower test scores, whereas the other student with the 1500 SAT did not.

That is so wrong. So wrong. It's sad that you, a reasonably intelligent adult, would think like this.

Being one of the best athletes in your sport ever in your 100 year old HS, and one of the top 75 athletes in your sport in the country (among thousands of participants) in your graduation year AND finishing in the top 5 percent of your class at the same time is more impressive than finishing in the top 2 percent and writing for the school paper. I witnessed the determination that both took, and it just is. No one could ever convince me otherwise.

LOL you really think that being one of the "best athletes" at an old high school (who cares if it's 100 years old??) is better than being a more impressive student and journalist. Please. You have no idea what kind of determination, creativity, team play, empathy, intelligence and stamina you need to write for a school paper.

Funny you say that. I do. I was the editor in chief of my college newspaper. It came out weekly. Every Friday morning and was like a full time job. You need the skills you mention sure, but it’s not the same as competing at the state and national level. You clearly don’t have any understanding or appreciation of what is required of an athlete and don’t have my perspective, so you’ll never get it. It’s not worth my time trying to explain it to you, but see my post about about how my daughter actually experienced high school if you want to try.

As the editor in chief of a five day a week college daily I say hold my beer. It was a ton of work, stress, etc. Because there was a ton of management, leadership, etc. involved. I could do everything perfectly but if a reporter forgot to show up to cover an event or I took a day off and something really bad got published, it was on me. One day a week is a joke.

Good for you. Mine was daily online and weekly print. And hundreds of kids are editing papers. That’s why college AOs really don’t care all that much about it. It’s just not that special. Again, you lack perspective.

[Anonymous]

We are not a donut hole family. I was a poor kid and now we can pay for our kids’ colleges full pay.

What I don’t understand with donut hole families. Why can’t you just pay what you would have paid for a state school and then take loans out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really hard to feel sorry for people when the athletic hook doesn’t work for them.

It’s not hard if you’re not an ahole because you know how much work the kid put into it.

Our kids who study hard, act in plays, win speech & debate competitions, tutor peers, and write for the paper also are kids who put a lot a lot of work in. they just don't feel as entitled to gain admission with lower academic standards!

why should students whose EC is sports gain admission with lower academic standards to play sports that don't bring any benefit to the school's other students? who watches cross-country, volleyball, squash, etc.?

at least diversity helps everyone by not having people in bubbles.

As a parent of a D1 athlete and another who was heavily involved in school ECs, there’s no comparison. The D1 athlete’s commitment was exponentially higher, and the non-athlete child would agree. The pressure she was under to perform at her sport and to peak at exactly the right time in state and national level competition was nothing like writing for the school paper.

I’m extremely proud of both of them, but the fact that the athlete’s grades lagged in comparison to the EC kid is completely justified considering the level of commitment. And it made sense to me that the athlete ended up at an Ivy with slightly lower grades and considerably lower test scores, whereas the other student with the 1500 SAT did not.

That is so wrong. So wrong. It's sad that you, a reasonably intelligent adult, would think like this.

Being one of the best athletes in your sport ever in your 100 year old HS, and one of the top 75 athletes in your sport in the country (among thousands of participants) in your graduation year AND finishing in the top 5 percent of your class at the same time is more impressive than finishing in the top 2 percent and writing for the school paper. I witnessed the determination that both took, and it just is. No one could ever convince me otherwise.

LOL you really think that being one of the "best athletes" at an old high school (who cares if it's 100 years old??) is better than being a more impressive student and journalist. Please. You have no idea what kind of determination, creativity, team play, empathy, intelligence and stamina you need to write for a school paper.

Funny you say that. I do. I was the editor in chief of my college newspaper. It came out weekly. Every Friday morning and was like a full time job. You need the skills you mention sure, but it’s not the same as competing at the state and national level. You clearly don’t have any understanding or appreciation of what is required of an athlete and don’t have my perspective, so you’ll never get it. It’s not worth my time trying to explain it to you, but see my post about about how my daughter actually experienced high school if you want to try.

As the editor in chief of a five day a week college daily I say hold my beer. It was a ton of work, stress, etc. Because there was a ton of management, leadership, etc. involved. I could do everything perfectly but if a reporter forgot to show up to cover an event or I took a day off and something really bad got published, it was on me. One day a week is a joke.

Good for you. Mine was daily online and weekly print. And hundreds of kids are editing papers. That’s why college AOs really don’t care all that much about it. It’s just not that special. Again, you lack perspective.

Being a HS athlete recruited for D1 compared to editing a HS newspaper, no matter how great the newspaper is, is not a comparison - athlete is much bigger.

Daily newspaper editor at a college (particularly back in our day when that involved both doing print layouts but also online) is as much or more work and responsibility as most college sports, save top tier sports where you are on TV, competing for professional spots. At my school top editors took lighter loads to be available. My grades were not great and I had a good but not great internship yet I landed a top tier banking job based on my newspaper experience - banks knew that if I could juggle school work and all of the late nights at the newspaper, the hours and stress of banking wouldn't bother me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are not a donut hole family. I was a poor kid and now we can pay for our kids’ colleges full pay.

What I don’t understand with donut hole families. Why can’t you just pay what you would have paid for a state school and then take loans out.

Wow you are so nonchalant about thousands of dollars in debt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The benefit of athletics for DIII is generally to have a 15-25% chance at admission as opposed to a 5-7% chance. The hooks are known, no one can really blame anyone for positioning their kid to increase their chances

Would that what you were saying was true. Recruited athletes have a 100% chance of admission. I realize it is a process to get there. But pretty early in the process, you still have an 80% chance — and this is through pre-reads and even before the ED deadline. You obviously don’t know NESCAC.

And, no, can’t blame parents for positioning their kids for this massive fist on the scale. But you can blame parents for pretending that weighted fist is but a pinky finger or, absurdly, that “my kid would have gotten in anyhow because they are qualified. Just look at the test scores.”

These parents are trying to have their cake and eat it.

[Anonymous]

How can you say that being an athlete is an 'unearned hook' - like legacy. Do you know how hard those athletes work? You might not like that it's a priority but they 'earn it'

It is nothing like high school newspaper (although I agree w the pp who noted the difference around college newspapers - that's a full time job).

I was puzzled by the whole athletic thing when I was at my HYP - and why the university cared so much. Now all these years later, I get it. The athletes are pretty darn successful and they are loyal alums. Turns out that extra 100 points on the SAT doesn't translate to success.

I hire on wall street. Always happy to have people who have done things like athletics or run a college paper - they are good team players, hard workers etc. Don't knock it.