Hating donut hole life: athletic recruiting version

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So can I read this threat to believe that if I have a kid who is smart enough to get into a SLAC on academics, is a decent varsity athlete (certainly not a D1 recruit), and we are full pay, they have a chance at making the team?

At many schools this might be true but not at a NESCAC or UAA type of school. Both conferences are full of mid level D1 players in many sports. Not in the helmet sports but sports like LAX, Volleyball, T&F, etc. typically overlap with the lower Ivy and Patriot League teams.

Makes sense. I'd like to see my kid end up at a NESCAC regardless of whether they play their sport, and I'm sure I'm not alone. I'd also rather they focus more on school than a sport in college, and D1 coaches probably disagree.

[Anonymous]

Athletic recruiting is great for:

1. The “best of the best” athletes who get scholarships to powerhouse D1 state flagships

2. Wealthy, full-pay kids who are solid athletes and students, but need an “admissions boost” to prestigious schools

3. Low-income kids who get picked up by “meets need” schools for being outstanding at sports and academics

If you are a smart kid in the donut hole—and not the “best of the best”—you’re probably better off focusing on academic merit and playing club sports in college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really hard to feel sorry for people when the athletic hook doesn’t work for them.

It’s not hard if you’re not an ahole because you know how much work the kid put into it.

Our kids who study hard, act in plays, win speech & debate competitions, tutor peers, and write for the paper also are kids who put a lot a lot of work in. they just don't feel as entitled to gain admission with lower academic standards!

why should students whose EC is sports gain admission with lower academic standards to play sports that don't bring any benefit to the school's other students? who watches cross-country, volleyball, squash, etc.?

at least diversity helps everyone by not having people in bubbles.

CMU theatre kids don’t need test scores or grades anywhere approaching the non-theatre students. This is true of other schools with strong arts programs.

Perhaps. But the chances of getting into the theater program at CMU are substantially less than the regular admissions percentages.

In addition, drama is an academic major at CMU, with a separate audition component to the admissions process. Not really a good comparison with athletics.

Actually a perfect comparison. The athletic recruiting process fundamentally functions the same as the audition. Sports aren’t a major but so what, they are institutional priorities.

Soft course it’s different.

Athletics are an EC. People don’t study football. Theatre is an academic program. People major in theatre. There are no pre-reads for theatre, no preferred admissions. No recruiting.

Why do parents of athletes try so hard to justify the separate admissions process? Isn’t that what you want?

Ummmmm at most colleges you do submit your theater work as part of the admissions process. Not required but done mostly.

Yes, you do. When applying as a theatre major. You don’t when auditioning for a play on campus that is not part of that major - IOW, an EC. Students doing theatre as an EC in college do not get a pre-read and a separate admissions process.

Depends on the school. Just went through this with DC who is a tech theater major (ironically, also played on a club team for a sport because they couldn't play in HS because it conflicted with theater). There were absolutely schools where the theater department trumped the admissions department. CMU is one of them. In others, the students were cleared through admissions before the theater dept scheduled interviews -- for tech theater, they do interviews and portfolio reviews but same basic thing as auditions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really hard to feel sorry for people when the athletic hook doesn’t work for them.

It’s not hard if you’re not an ahole because you know how much work the kid put into it.

Our kids who study hard, act in plays, win speech & debate competitions, tutor peers, and write for the paper also are kids who put a lot a lot of work in. they just don't feel as entitled to gain admission with lower academic standards!

why should students whose EC is sports gain admission with lower academic standards to play sports that don't bring any benefit to the school's other students? who watches cross-country, volleyball, squash, etc.?

at least diversity helps everyone by not having people in bubbles.

CMU theatre kids don’t need test scores or grades anywhere approaching the non-theatre students. This is true of other schools with strong arts programs.

Perhaps. But the chances of getting into the theater program at CMU are substantially less than the regular admissions percentages.

In addition, drama is an academic major at CMU, with a separate audition component to the admissions process. Not really a good comparison with athletics.

Actually a perfect comparison. The athletic recruiting process fundamentally functions the same as the audition. Sports aren’t a major but so what, they are institutional priorities.

Soft course it’s different.

Athletics are an EC. People don’t study football. Theatre is an academic program. People major in theatre. There are no pre-reads for theatre, no preferred admissions. No recruiting.

Why do parents of athletes try so hard to justify the separate admissions process? Isn’t that what you want?

Ummmmm at most colleges you do submit your theater work as part of the admissions process. Not required but done mostly.

Yes, you do. When applying as a theatre major. You don’t when auditioning for a play on campus that is not part of that major - IOW, an EC. Students doing theatre as an EC in college do not get a pre-read and a separate admissions process.

Depends on the school. Just went through this with DC who is a tech theater major (ironically, also played on a club team for a sport because they couldn't play in HS because it conflicted with theater). There were absolutely schools where the theater department trumped the admissions department. CMU is one of them. In others, the students were cleared through admissions before the theater dept scheduled interviews -- for tech theater, they do interviews and portfolio reviews but same basic thing as auditions.

Sorry -- reading quickly at work and misread the post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So can I read this threat to believe that if I have a kid who is smart enough to get into a SLAC on academics, is a decent varsity athlete (certainly not a D1 recruit), and we are full pay, they have a chance at making the team?

Depends on the SLAC and the sport. I don’t think Williams and Amherst is in the cards for just decent. For track and XC, the Williams recruited athletes had D1 options if they wanted them.

true for about 2 kids per year at each school - those are the kids with D1 - Patriot League or Ivy - options

Every one of them could run D1 somewhere if they were more interested in D1 than
an academic experience.

the issue is that any kid who can get a slot at Williams or Amherst (full pay) is never passing that up for a 25% athletic scholarship to a Patriot league school. Too
much difference in the perceived value of the degrees - abother thread on that lol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So can I read this threat to believe that if I have a kid who is smart enough to get into a SLAC on academics, is a decent varsity athlete (certainly not a D1 recruit), and we are full pay, they have a chance at making the team?

Depends on the SLAC and the sport. I don’t think Williams and Amherst is in the cards for just decent. For track and XC, the Williams recruited athletes had D1 options if they wanted them.

true for about 2 kids per year at each school - those are the kids with D1 - Patriot League or Ivy - options

Every one of them could run D1 somewhere if they were more interested in D1 than
an academic experience.

the issue is that any kid who can get a slot at Williams or Amherst (full pay) is never passing that up for a 25% athletic scholarship to a Patriot league school. Too
much difference in the perceived value of the degrees - abother thread on that lol

there is a tipping point though for most folks - probably the bulk of kids interested in these 2 schools vs Patriot league would need 50% off sticker price at a top Patriot school to choose over W or A

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My college boyfriend was at an Ivy League school on a football scholarship. He was very bright and had good grades and test scores, but without football might not have been admitted. He majored in engineering, which was not an easy major, and was a B/C student. He worked really, really hard for those Bs and Cs. He was highly recruited on the job market and today is a managing partner at a large, well-known firm making very good money. He's also a very active alum. I don't think the university has any regrets.

Nobody cares about the Ivy League football except alumni. They do not give scholarships.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So can I read this threat to believe that if I have a kid who is smart enough to get into a SLAC on academics, is a decent varsity athlete (certainly not a D1 recruit), and we are full pay, they have a chance at making the team?

Depends on the SLAC and the sport. I don’t think Williams and Amherst is in the cards for just decent. For track and XC, the Williams recruited athletes had D1 options if they wanted them.

true for about 2 kids per year at each school - those are the kids with D1 - Patriot League or Ivy - options

Every one of them could run D1 somewhere if they were more interested in D1 than
an academic experience.

the issue is that any kid who can get a slot at Williams or Amherst (full pay) is never passing that up for a 25% athletic scholarship to a Patriot league school. Too
much difference in the perceived value of the degrees - abother thread on that lol

You don’t understand most athletes. The vast majority want to compete at a D1 level and would take Lehigh over Williams and Amherst with zero $$$s.

Most kids have little interest in schools that small no matter what.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So can I read this threat to believe that if I have a kid who is smart enough to get into a SLAC on academics, is a decent varsity athlete (certainly not a D1 recruit), and we are full pay, they have a chance at making the team?

Depends on the SLAC and the sport. I don’t think Williams and Amherst is in the cards for just decent. For track and XC, the Williams recruited athletes had D1 options if they wanted them.

true for about 2 kids per year at each school - those are the kids with D1 - Patriot League or Ivy - options

Every one of them could run D1 somewhere if they were more interested in D1 than
an academic experience.

the issue is that any kid who can get a slot at Williams or Amherst (full pay) is never passing that up for a 25% athletic scholarship to a Patriot league school. Too
much difference in the perceived value of the degrees - abother thread on that lol

You don’t understand most athletes. The vast majority want to compete at a D1 level and would take Lehigh over Williams and Amherst with zero $$$s.

Most kids have little interest in schools that small no matter what.

you may be right but that’s where our guidance comes into play - what is the best path to help best position your kid for a succesful life? A degree from Lehigh or Williams?

[Anonymous]

14:00 above pretty much summed it up.

Everyone’s heard Harvard is no tuition for household income under $200,000, but that’s not going to affect many.

If it helps anyone, Mount Holyoke just declared no tuition for households under $150,000.
It will be interesting to see which other schools follow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So can I read this threat to believe that if I have a kid who is smart enough to get into a SLAC on academics, is a decent varsity athlete (certainly not a D1 recruit), and we are full pay, they have a chance at making the team?

Depends on the SLAC and the sport. I don’t think Williams and Amherst is in the cards for just decent. For track and XC, the Williams recruited athletes had D1 options if they wanted them.

true for about 2 kids per year at each school - those are the kids with D1 - Patriot League or Ivy - options

Every one of them could run D1 somewhere if they were more interested in D1 than
an academic experience.

the issue is that any kid who can get a slot at Williams or Amherst (full pay) is never passing that up for a 25% athletic scholarship to a Patriot league school. Too
much difference in the perceived value of the degrees - abother thread on that lol

You don’t understand most athletes. The vast majority want to compete at a D1 level and would take Lehigh over Williams and Amherst with zero $$$s.

Most kids have little interest in schools that small no matter what.

you may be right but that’s where our guidance comes into play - what is the best path to help best position your kid for a succesful life? A degree from Lehigh or Williams?

Either…I wouldn’t want my kid to go to Williams unless they really wanted to go to Williams. It’s for a particular kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So can I read this threat to believe that if I have a kid who is smart enough to get into a SLAC on academics, is a decent varsity athlete (certainly not a D1 recruit), and we are full pay, they have a chance at making the team?

Depends on the SLAC and the sport. I don’t think Williams and Amherst is in the cards for just decent. For track and XC, the Williams recruited athletes had D1 options if they wanted them.

true for about 2 kids per year at each school - those are the kids with D1 - Patriot League or Ivy - options

Every one of them could run D1 somewhere if they were more interested in D1 than
an academic experience.

the issue is that any kid who can get a slot at Williams or Amherst (full pay) is never passing that up for a 25% athletic scholarship to a Patriot league school. Too
much difference in the perceived value of the degrees - abother thread on that lol

You don’t understand most athletes. The vast majority want to compete at a D1 level and would take Lehigh over Williams and Amherst with zero $$$s.

Most kids have little interest in schools that small no matter what.

you may be right but that’s where our guidance comes into play - what is the best path to help best position your kid for a succesful life? A degree from Lehigh or Williams?

Lots of us will guide our kids to a better academic school. From our perspective, it's a no-brainer unless a lucrative professional sports career is at risk.

[Anonymous]

OP what school and what sport?? No merit aid at all?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really hard to feel sorry for people when the athletic hook doesn’t work for them.

It’s not hard if you’re not an ahole because you know how much work the kid put into it.

Our kids who study hard, act in plays, win speech & debate competitions, tutor peers, and write for the paper also are kids who put a lot a lot of work in. they just don't feel as entitled to gain admission with lower academic standards!

why should students whose EC is sports gain admission with lower academic standards to play sports that don't bring any benefit to the school's other students? who watches cross-country, volleyball, squash, etc.?

at least diversity helps everyone by not having people in bubbles.

As a parent of a D1 athlete and another who was heavily involved in school ECs, there’s no comparison. The D1 athlete’s commitment was exponentially higher, and the non-athlete child would agree. The pressure she was under to perform at her sport and to peak at exactly the right time in state and national level competition was nothing like writing for the school paper.

I’m extremely proud of both of them, but the fact that the athlete’s grades lagged in comparison to the EC kid is completely justified considering the level of commitment. And it made sense to me that the athlete ended up at an Ivy with slightly lower grades and considerably lower test scores, whereas the other student with the 1500 SAT did not.

That is so wrong. So wrong. It's sad that you, a reasonably intelligent adult, would think like this.

Being one of the best athletes in your sport ever in your 100 year old HS, and one of the top 75 athletes in your sport in the country (among thousands of participants) in your graduation year AND finishing in the top 5 percent of your class at the same time is more impressive than finishing in the top 2 percent and writing for the school paper. I witnessed the determination that both took, and it just is. No one could ever convince me otherwise.

I’ve got two family members ranked nationally top ten and went to D1 then pro along with friends. They didn’t work harder than kids involved in other activities. That’s obnoxious to say. If the genetic talent for sports is there that student who plays varsity will beat out the kid who plays on varsity and a year round club sports 6 days a week. Maybe your child had to work harder than others, had the talent and made it but that’s not every athlete.

And some parents don’t understand that you can’t buy the talent no matter how many private coaches and club teams you play on. Most pro athletes were great athletes in all of the major sports. They didn’t specialize early on. Tom Brady was recruited for pro baseball after high school but he played football in high school and decided to go that route.

My 12 year old daughter is 5’8” already and has the build of a basketball player. She doesn’t have the talent though so she plays rec. Know when to step back and let your kid enjoy high school.

Pro athletes need both the genetics and work at their sport 60 hours per week through training, practice, etc. Caleb Williams had a crazy training schedule when he was at Gonzaga. It’s the kids with the genetic talent and the work ethic that make it.

Also, most pro athletes were not in fact great at multiple sports as you are completely ignoring the international factor in most pro sports. Almost no pro soccer or hockey players ever played other sports because international systems don’t work that way. The DR produces the most MLB players per capita and those kids don’t play other sports…again, they are going to full time MLB academies at 12.

You’re right I didn’t think of the international factor. I wasn’t thinking about soccer at all. Some of highest paid athletes, football players, can easily start in high school. They need the drive and work ethic but genetics have to be there.

Americans are introduced to all sports and as a result are more likely to play more than one sport.

The Dominican Republic is remarkable with their success in baseball. I understand why they would focus only on baseball.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So can I read this threat to believe that if I have a kid who is smart enough to get into a SLAC on academics, is a decent varsity athlete (certainly not a D1 recruit), and we are full pay, they have a chance at making the team?

Depends on the SLAC and the sport. I don’t think Williams and Amherst is in the cards for just decent. For track and XC, the Williams recruited athletes had D1 options if they wanted them.

true for about 2 kids per year at each school - those are the kids with D1 - Patriot League or Ivy - options

Every one of them could run D1 somewhere if they were more interested in D1 than
an academic experience.

Mine turned down Lehigh and other Patriot League schools for a NESCAC. D1 isn’t always the choice.

the issue is that any kid who can get a slot at Williams or Amherst (full pay) is never passing that up for a 25% athletic scholarship to a Patriot league school. Too
much difference in the perceived value of the degrees - abother thread on that lol

You don’t understand most athletes. The vast majority want to compete at a D1 level and would take Lehigh over Williams and Amherst with zero $$$s.

Most kids have little interest in schools that small no matter what.