Hating donut hole life: athletic recruiting version

[Anonymous]

Dear OP,

All this back and forth should tell you one thing: find a way to pay for your kid to go if it’s Williams or Amherst. You are being handed something some would chop off a limb for. Regardless of whether athletic recruiting is fair, we would much rather you benefit from it than some entitled wealthy family who will undoubtedly replace them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Really hard to feel sorry for people when the athletic hook doesn’t work for them.

It’s not hard if you’re not an ahole because you know how much work the kid put into it.

Our kids who study hard, act in plays, win speech & debate competitions, tutor peers, and write for the paper also are kids who put a lot a lot of work in. they just don't feel as entitled to gain admission with lower academic standards!

why should students whose EC is sports gain admission with lower academic standards to play sports that don't bring any benefit to the school's other students? who watches cross-country, volleyball, squash, etc.?

at least diversity helps everyone by not having people in bubbles.

CMU theatre kids don’t need test scores or grades anywhere approaching the non-theatre students. This is true of other schools with strong arts programs.

Perhaps. But the chances of getting into the theater program at CMU are substantially less than the regular admissions percentages.

In addition, drama is an academic major at CMU, with a separate audition component to the admissions process. Not really a good comparison with athletics.

Actually a perfect comparison. The athletic recruiting process fundamentally functions the same as the audition. Sports aren’t a major but so what, they are institutional priorities.

Soft course it’s different.

Athletics are an EC. People don’t study football. Theatre is an academic program. People major in theatre. There are no pre-reads for theatre, no preferred admissions. No recruiting.

Why do parents of athletes try so hard to justify the separate admissions process? Isn’t that what you want?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:DD is at an Ivy playing her sport. She got zero financial aid. She's now a sophomore and has been a really hard road. She doesn't get much playing time and doesn't get along with her teammates very much. The students at the school are a little weird because they are so so smart and she still working on making friends. The grass is not always greener. In hindsight, I would have encouraged her skip to D1 and just go in-state as a regular applicant.

this is the problem when Ivies and other top schools relax the academic standards too much for athletes. Then if the kid doesn’t continue with the sport then they also don’t really fit in/match the level of the rest of the kids who got in on academic merit. This was my experience at one of the Ivies.

You weren't smart enough but somehow got in?

Academic standards at the Ivies are relaxed somewhat but still plenty high enough. I have to call Bull.

No, I went to Harvard, not as an athlete. Two of my freshman roommates were varsity athletes. I have other friends of friends/ roommates who were athletes. you almost never saw athletes in STEM majors. Athletes suffered from an image as “dumb jocks” who couldn’t keep up intellectually or in other extracurricular pursuits. They just kind of kept to their own cliques.

I guess that we are lucky then because my pre med kid running at Brown doesn’t feel like a “dumb jock” at all.

Without running, kid would not be at Brown. Or do you insist kid would have gotten in anyway?

JHC, you people really don't get it. Maybe he wouldn't be at Brown without the running, but that doesn't mean he can't thrive there. People have this notion that the educational environment at the most elite schools is navigable only by true geniuses, but that simply isn't true.

No, you don’t get it. It is not “maybe” he would not be there without it. It isn’t even “probable.” He would “almost definitely” not be there without it. Yet another athlete parent who is delusional.

Your point is, in any event, a non-sequiter: most rejected applicants would have thrived there too. Get it?

you can’t back up anything that you are saying. You have no idea what the kids stats were. You are just screaming envy at this point.

You obviously don’t know how college admissions works at elite schools for non-athletes. Educate thyself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is at an Ivy playing her sport. She got zero financial aid. She's now a sophomore and has been a really hard road. She doesn't get much playing time and doesn't get along with her teammates very much. The students at the school are a little weird because they are so so smart and she still working on making friends. The grass is not always greener. In hindsight, I would have encouraged her skip to D1 and just go in-state as a regular applicant.

this is the problem when Ivies and other top schools relax the academic standards too much for athletes. Then if the kid doesn’t continue with the sport then they also don’t really fit in/match the level of the rest of the kids who got in on academic merit. This was my experience at one of the Ivies.

You weren't smart enough but somehow got in?

Academic standards at the Ivies are relaxed somewhat but still plenty high enough. I have to call Bull.

No, I went to Harvard, not as an athlete. Two of my freshman roommates were varsity athletes. I have other friends of friends/ roommates who were athletes. you almost never saw athletes in STEM majors. Athletes suffered from an image as “dumb jocks” who couldn’t keep up intellectually or in other extracurricular pursuits. They just kind of kept to their own cliques.

I guess that we are lucky then because my pre med kid running at Brown doesn’t feel like a “dumb jock” at all.

Without running, kid would not be at Brown. Or do you insist kid would have gotten in anyway?

JHC, you people really don't get it. Maybe he wouldn't be at Brown without the running, but that doesn't mean he can't thrive there. People have this notion that the educational environment at the most elite schools is navigable only by true geniuses, but that simply isn't true.

Also, some of the athletes - especially some of the distance runners and fencers - are also academic stars in high school and college.

They are white; it is affirmative action for whites. For example, Brown:
19/19 on Brown XC are white. Don’t believe me? Take a look. It’s downright embarrassing…
https://brownbears.com/sports/mens-cross-country/roster

Women’s side is more diverse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really hard to feel sorry for people when the athletic hook doesn’t work for them.

It’s not hard if you’re not an ahole because you know how much work the kid put into it.

Our kids who study hard, act in plays, win speech & debate competitions, tutor peers, and write for the paper also are kids who put a lot a lot of work in. they just don't feel as entitled to gain admission with lower academic standards!

why should students whose EC is sports gain admission with lower academic standards to play sports that don't bring any benefit to the school's other students? who watches cross-country, volleyball, squash, etc.?

at least diversity helps everyone by not having people in bubbles.

CMU theatre kids don’t need test scores or grades anywhere approaching the non-theatre students. This is true of other schools with strong arts programs.

Perhaps. But the chances of getting into the theater program at CMU are substantially less than the regular admissions percentages.

In addition, drama is an academic major at CMU, with a separate audition component to the admissions process. Not really a good comparison with athletics.

Actually a perfect comparison. The athletic recruiting process fundamentally functions the same as the audition. Sports aren’t a major but so what, they are institutional priorities.

Soft course it’s different.

Athletics are an EC. People don’t study football. Theatre is an academic program. People major in theatre. There are no pre-reads for theatre, no preferred admissions. No recruiting.

Why do parents of athletes try so hard to justify the separate admissions process? Isn’t that what you want?

I really don’t get it either. Is it guilt?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is at an Ivy playing her sport. She got zero financial aid. She's now a sophomore and has been a really hard road. She doesn't get much playing time and doesn't get along with her teammates very much. The students at the school are a little weird because they are so so smart and she still working on making friends. The grass is not always greener. In hindsight, I would have encouraged her skip to D1 and just go in-state as a regular applicant.

this is the problem when Ivies and other top schools relax the academic standards too much for athletes. Then if the kid doesn’t continue with the sport then they also don’t really fit in/match the level of the rest of the kids who got in on academic merit. This was my experience at one of the Ivies.

You weren't smart enough but somehow got in?

Academic standards at the Ivies are relaxed somewhat but still plenty high enough. I have to call Bull.

No, I went to Harvard, not as an athlete. Two of my freshman roommates were varsity athletes. I have other friends of friends/ roommates who were athletes. you almost never saw athletes in STEM majors. Athletes suffered from an image as “dumb jocks” who couldn’t keep up intellectually or in other extracurricular pursuits. They just kind of kept to their own cliques.

I guess that we are lucky then because my pre med kid running at Brown doesn’t feel like a “dumb jock” at all.

Without running, kid would not be at Brown. Or do you insist kid would have gotten in anyway?

JHC, you people really don't get it. Maybe he wouldn't be at Brown without the running, but that doesn't mean he can't thrive there. People have this notion that the educational environment at the most elite schools is navigable only by true geniuses, but that simply isn't true.

Also, some of the athletes - especially some of the distance runners and fencers - are also academic stars in high school and college.

They are white; it is affirmative action for whites. For example, Brown:
19/19 on Brown XC are white. Don’t believe me? Take a look. It’s downright embarrassing…
https://brownbears.com/sports/mens-cross-country/roster

Why would that be embarrassing?

What does PP find "embarrassing" about white people? Sounds pretty racist...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really hard to feel sorry for people when the athletic hook doesn’t work for them.

It’s not hard if you’re not an ahole because you know how much work the kid put into it.

Our kids who study hard, act in plays, win speech & debate competitions, tutor peers, and write for the paper also are kids who put a lot a lot of work in. they just don't feel as entitled to gain admission with lower academic standards!

why should students whose EC is sports gain admission with lower academic standards to play sports that don't bring any benefit to the school's other students? who watches cross-country, volleyball, squash, etc.?

at least diversity helps everyone by not having people in bubbles.

Because sports are institutional priorities at many schools, particularly old private schools. And, these schools have every right to their priorities. Nobody complains about athletes at Towson because people don't care about athletes and athletics except when they consume seats at a school they covet. Seems like simple envy and jealousy to me.

It’s a hook, an unearned advantage that gets a student a special admissions process they otherwise wouldn’t have gotten.

It’s part of American athlete worship culture.

Athletics are an institutional priority for these schools and have been for 150 years. Why can't you get that through your head?

That’s exactly what I said. It’s a hook. Something the institution values but is not earned by the student, like legacy or big donor family or faculty child.

That is the dumbest take I've ever heard. Do you have any idea how hard athletes work to earn their skill?

No doubt they work hard doing something they love and they develop skills. But that’s not why they get a thumb on the scale. That thumb is there not because your kid worked hard, it’s there because schools prioritize sports. That’s the unearned part. Your kid could work hard being a volunteer EMT throughout high school but that hard work isn’t considered a priority so no thumb. No other EC is as valuable as being a recruited athlete and it isn’t because the athletes are so much more fabulous than the non-athletes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find atlethic Scholorships a complete Scam for most.

I was at a college with 100 percent tuition covered by Financial Aid. I was approached to be on Lacross team with a "scholorship"

I never played Lacross. I thought it was a scam. I go meet with coach anyhow. He goes we were scouting recent transfer students. Says here you rant track in HS, Long Distance and 100 yard dash and look in shape. I go yea I am still in shape, he asked me height and weight I go six foot two inche 190 pound. He goes perfects, can you still run? I go well I do do track anymore but in intermural basketball I play I can run the full game no problem at all.

Dude whips out a scholorship form for me to sign. I go what, he goes you will be the defense in practice and maybe play garabage time. I need someone big and quick in practice to block the starters. I can teach you some lacross but you wont really need that. I get form I go home to show Mom.

It says in fine print I forfeit all my financial aid to school directly to recoup atlethic Scholorship. So in other words I am not getting anything, I did not pay tuition, if said if injured school not liable for medical payments from injury and I cant sue them if injured. Then it added on during season I cant hold a part time job. I had a 20 hour a week part time job I had to quit.

My Mom read it and laughed out loud. So for 20-30 hours a week people are going to hit you with sticks in practive for free and you have to quit your job for that privledge and if hurt you are on your own.

For most people it is a scam.

This didn’t happen but nice fiction.

Ha ha- yeah, whips out a scholarship form
All ready to go. 🤣

It doesn’t make sense. Coaches want kids who get money from other pots. A Fordham coach offered my kid on the spot when they found out that they were NMF because admission was virtually guaranteed and she came at zero cost. Prior to that it was “Preferred walk on because we most likely won’t have money for you”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really hard to feel sorry for people when the athletic hook doesn’t work for them.

It’s not hard if you’re not an ahole because you know how much work the kid put into it.

Our kids who study hard, act in plays, win speech & debate competitions, tutor peers, and write for the paper also are kids who put a lot a lot of work in. they just don't feel as entitled to gain admission with lower academic standards!

why should students whose EC is sports gain admission with lower academic standards to play sports that don't bring any benefit to the school's other students? who watches cross-country, volleyball, squash, etc.?

at least diversity helps everyone by not having people in bubbles.

CMU theatre kids don’t need test scores or grades anywhere approaching the non-theatre students. This is true of other schools with strong arts programs.

Perhaps. But the chances of getting into the theater program at CMU are substantially less than the regular admissions percentages.

In addition, drama is an academic major at CMU, with a separate audition component to the admissions process. Not really a good comparison with athletics.

Actually a perfect comparison. The athletic recruiting process fundamentally functions the same as the audition. Sports aren’t a major but so what, they are institutional priorities.

Soft course it’s different.

Athletics are an EC. People don’t study football. Theatre is an academic program. People major in theatre. There are no pre-reads for theatre, no preferred admissions. No recruiting.

Why do parents of athletes try so hard to justify the separate admissions process? Isn’t that what you want?

We don’t have to justify anything, your tortured reason around auditions and majors is what needs justification.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is at an Ivy playing her sport. She got zero financial aid. She's now a sophomore and has been a really hard road. She doesn't get much playing time and doesn't get along with her teammates very much. The students at the school are a little weird because they are so so smart and she still working on making friends. The grass is not always greener. In hindsight, I would have encouraged her skip to D1 and just go in-state as a regular applicant.

this is the problem when Ivies and other top schools relax the academic standards too much for athletes. Then if the kid doesn’t continue with the sport then they also don’t really fit in/match the level of the rest of the kids who got in on academic merit. This was my experience at one of the Ivies.

You weren't smart enough but somehow got in?

Academic standards at the Ivies are relaxed somewhat but still plenty high enough. I have to call Bull.

No, I went to Harvard, not as an athlete. Two of my freshman roommates were varsity athletes. I have other friends of friends/ roommates who were athletes. you almost never saw athletes in STEM majors. Athletes suffered from an image as “dumb jocks” who couldn’t keep up intellectually or in other extracurricular pursuits. They just kind of kept to their own cliques.

I guess that we are lucky then because my pre med kid running at Brown doesn’t feel like a “dumb jock” at all.

Without running, kid would not be at Brown. Or do you insist kid would have gotten in anyway?

JHC, you people really don't get it. Maybe he wouldn't be at Brown without the running, but that doesn't mean he can't thrive there. People have this notion that the educational environment at the most elite schools is navigable only by true geniuses, but that simply isn't true.

Also, some of the athletes - especially some of the distance runners and fencers - are also academic stars in high school and college.

They are white; it is affirmative action for whites. For example, Brown:
19/19 on Brown XC are white. Don’t believe me? Take a look. It’s downright embarrassing…
https://brownbears.com/sports/mens-cross-country/roster

Why would that be embarrassing?

What does PP find "embarrassing" about white people? Sounds pretty racist...

I mean, no kidding. Race has absolutely nothing to do with it! Can’t you appreciate how hard some of the rich kids work? These kids especially:
https://brownbears.com/sports/mens-lacrosse/roster/2024

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really hard to feel sorry for people when the athletic hook doesn’t work for them.

It’s not hard if you’re not an ahole because you know how much work the kid put into it.

Our kids who study hard, act in plays, win speech & debate competitions, tutor peers, and write for the paper also are kids who put a lot a lot of work in. they just don't feel as entitled to gain admission with lower academic standards!

why should students whose EC is sports gain admission with lower academic standards to play sports that don't bring any benefit to the school's other students? who watches cross-country, volleyball, squash, etc.?

at least diversity helps everyone by not having people in bubbles.

CMU theatre kids don’t need test scores or grades anywhere approaching the non-theatre students. This is true of other schools with strong arts programs.

Perhaps. But the chances of getting into the theater program at CMU are substantially less than the regular admissions percentages.

In addition, drama is an academic major at CMU, with a separate audition component to the admissions process. Not really a good comparison with athletics.

Actually a perfect comparison. The athletic recruiting process fundamentally functions the same as the audition. Sports aren’t a major but so what, they are institutional priorities.

Soft course it’s different.

Athletics are an EC. People don’t study football. Theatre is an academic program. People major in theatre. There are no pre-reads for theatre, no preferred admissions. No recruiting.

Why do parents of athletes try so hard to justify the separate admissions process? Isn’t that what you want?

Ummmmm at most colleges you do submit your theater work as part of the admissions process. Not required but done mostly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really hard to feel sorry for people when the athletic hook doesn’t work for them.

It’s not hard if you’re not an ahole because you know how much work the kid put into it.

Our kids who study hard, act in plays, win speech & debate competitions, tutor peers, and write for the paper also are kids who put a lot a lot of work in. they just don't feel as entitled to gain admission with lower academic standards!

why should students whose EC is sports gain admission with lower academic standards to play sports that don't bring any benefit to the school's other students? who watches cross-country, volleyball, squash, etc.?

at least diversity helps everyone by not having people in bubbles.

CMU theatre kids don’t need test scores or grades anywhere approaching the non-theatre students. This is true of other schools with strong arts programs.

Perhaps. But the chances of getting into the theater program at CMU are substantially less than the regular admissions percentages.

In addition, drama is an academic major at CMU, with a separate audition component to the admissions process. Not really a good comparison with athletics.

Actually a perfect comparison. The athletic recruiting process fundamentally functions the same as the audition. Sports aren’t a major but so what, they are institutional priorities.

Soft course it’s different.

Athletics are an EC. People don’t study football. Theatre is an academic program. People major in theatre. There are no pre-reads for theatre, no preferred admissions. No recruiting.

Why do parents of athletes try so hard to justify the separate admissions process? Isn’t that what you want?

Ummmmm at most colleges you do submit your theater work as part of the admissions process. Not required but done mostly.

No pre-reads. No separate admit process. What you are referring to is an arts supplement, which may indeed help with admissions, but think “pinky” — not “fist.” Unless you are talking Juilliard or some specialty school…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find atlethic Scholorships a complete Scam for most.

I was at a college with 100 percent tuition covered by Financial Aid. I was approached to be on Lacross team with a "scholorship"

I never played Lacross. I thought it was a scam. I go meet with coach anyhow. He goes we were scouting recent transfer students. Says here you rant track in HS, Long Distance and 100 yard dash and look in shape. I go yea I am still in shape, he asked me height and weight I go six foot two inche 190 pound. He goes perfects, can you still run? I go well I do do track anymore but in intermural basketball I play I can run the full game no problem at all.

Dude whips out a scholorship form for me to sign. I go what, he goes you will be the defense in practice and maybe play garabage time. I need someone big and quick in practice to block the starters. I can teach you some lacross but you wont really need that. I get form I go home to show Mom.

It says in fine print I forfeit all my financial aid to school directly to recoup atlethic Scholorship. So in other words I am not getting anything, I did not pay tuition, if said if injured school not liable for medical payments from injury and I cant sue them if injured. Then it added on during season I cant hold a part time job. I had a 20 hour a week part time job I had to quit.

My Mom read it and laughed out loud. So for 20-30 hours a week people are going to hit you with sticks in practive for free and you have to quit your job for that privledge and if hurt you are on your own.

For most people it is a scam.

This didn’t happen but nice fiction.

Agree. No coach would think you could pick up LAX enough to play because you ran track. Kind of a lot of typos ---- maybe the LAX would have helped your resume.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ugh I hate not being rich right now. DC has athletic recruiting offers to some top SLAC schools, but they don't do athletic or merit scholarships. I ran the NPCs and we get zero financial aid at all of them, but they're just too expensive for us to pay full price.

Now DC has to either 1) go to lower ranked schools offering athletic/merit scholarships or 2) forego athletic recruitment and just apply EA to state schools or shot gun in regular decision in hopes of merit.

Tonight I have to tell DC that they can't go to either of the SLAC's that they really want and have offers to. And we're not prepared with essays because we spent oodles of time on recruiting on top of an intensive year round sports schedule.

I hope this serves as a cautionary tale for donut hole parents of younger athletic recruits. Don't waste your time on recruiting unless you can either pay full price, your kid is good enough to get a hefty scholarship at one of the few good schools that offers athletic scholarships *and wants to go to these larger schools*, or you qualify for significant FA.

OP -- it was on you to have a conversation in Ninth grade with the kid --- look -- you need to focus on state schools for your sport or D1s that give money. Otherwise we cannot do it. There was no point going through the recruiting process you went through. Rather than not have them play a sport have a real conversation.

We are not in your situation. We can pay. DD is at a high academic D3. But that is what she wanted. She knew she wanted Ivy or that (plus a few more). She did not chase or engage with the schools she was not interested in. Even good D1s. That is what you should have done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Playing a sport for 4 yrs at a D3 college for no extra money seems pointless.

What was all those extra $$$ for club sports and hours practicing for? All those Injuries and wasted hours.

I mean, childhood counts for more than just preparing for college. If the kid enjoys the sport and the family has the resources for them to participate, then that’s wonderful.

I do agree that going to a college that isn’t the right fit or is too expensive just so you can play your sport is crazy. College actually IS supposed to prepare you for the rest of your life.

Parents need to let their kids know that the world gets so much bigger once you leave your little bubble of home/school/practice, and there are so many other things to do with your life besides stare at the bottom of the pool or catch a ball with a stick.