Why Math is so weak in private schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid's 99th percentile quantitative reasoning score on the ERB CTP was only a 96th percentile score by independent school norms, and 97th for Classical Christian ones, which suggests that relatively speaking there are a far more high-performing math kids in private.

I will note that he's only accelerated to the point of the 8th grade algebra track, but this seems fine, because the class goes deeper into the material. The school will accelerate further with serious math phenoms - but his 99% didn't cut it.

You do often get more specialized courses being offered in giant publics that cater to an educated populace, especially giant selective publics like TJ, because the population base is so much larger. But large privates with a sufficient quantity of elite students can offer quite advanced courses (Sidwell offers linear algebra, Heights multivariable calculus, Flint Hill has both in their catalog).

Given that public schools educate absolutely everybody, including special needs, economically disadvantaged, etc., it is not surprising that percentages shake out this way. When people say "public school math is better" they are clearly talking about the subset of students who would be able to go to either public or private.

There is so much variation, though, that it's hard to say which is "better." Is math education better at DC-area magnets than at top privates? Certainly you're more likely to run into an IMO qualifier at TJ, or other forms of non-contest-based awesomeness, so to the extent that peer group matters, there's that. Not sure how that generalizes outside the top places.

Bottom line, if private school kids are interested in math, they should know where the bar really is for excellence and seek resources elsewhere as necessary. The best kids at the top 3 can/should probably go a bit further than they're asked to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid's 99th percentile quantitative reasoning score on the ERB CTP was only a 96th percentile score by independent school norms, and 97th for Classical Christian ones, which suggests that relatively speaking there are a far more high-performing math kids in private.

I will note that he's only accelerated to the point of the 8th grade algebra track, but this seems fine, because the class goes deeper into the material. The school will accelerate further with serious math phenoms - but his 99% didn't cut it.

You do often get more specialized courses being offered in giant publics that cater to an educated populace, especially giant selective publics like TJ, because the population base is so much larger. But large privates with a sufficient quantity of elite students can offer quite advanced courses (Sidwell offers linear algebra, Heights multivariable calculus, Flint Hill has both in their catalog).

Given that public schools educate absolutely everybody, including special needs, economically disadvantaged, etc., it is not surprising that percentages shake out this way. When people say "public school math is better" they are clearly talking about the subset of students who would be able to go to either public or private.

There is so much variation, though, that it's hard to say which is "better." Is math education better at DC-area magnets than at top privates? Certainly you're more likely to run into an IMO qualifier at TJ, or other forms of non-contest-based awesomeness, so to the extent that peer group matters, there's that. Not sure how that generalizes outside the top places.

Bottom line, if private school kids are interested in math, they should know where the bar really is for excellence and seek resources elsewhere as necessary. The best kids at the top 3 can/should probably go a bit further than they're asked to.

Best kids could probably always do better, because everyone could always do better.

I wonder if this is true, generally speaking. 2024 IMO team had two kids attending private virtual schools, one kid in a private performing arts school, and three kids in public. TJ is a six hundred pound gorilla, though, so it could indeed be true of this area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see that the top students in private schools do have math tutors or go to specialized schools like RSM to enhance their math knowledge. Why this is the case?

I was a math tutor (not with RSM) for many years. My students from private schools either a) needed additional support beyond what the school could reasonably offer or b) were using the summer to jump a level or get a head start. It wasn't related to the school not accelerating enough, but rather the opposite!

Most established private schools will extend the math curriculum as far as needed. Sometimes that top class (say, multivariable) will be quite small, but they're fully able to do it. If no one needs that class in a given year, they won't offer it. You just need to ask to confirm it will be a possibility in the future.

OP, are you asking in regard to a certain grade level? I've found these questions tend to pop up in middle school because many privates won't offer options beyond Algebra in those grades. At least from my perspective, this makes sense. My oldest is strong in math and I get the push for acceleration, but so often, it's not a good idea – pedagogically and developmentally. Having a strong, deep foundation in Algebra is SO much better than pushing through to Calculus with only a surface-level understanding of why things work. Believe me, it pays off later to have an excellent Algebra teacher who can make sure you really get it versus just memorizing the steps so you can zoom through. Your brain literally needs to be ready for those super abstract concepts!

This is such BS.

Publics are heads and tails ahead of privates in this space.

No private hires a teacher for a few kids to do multivariable calculus. LOL

It’s not that privates would have to hire a math teacher fully dedicated to teaching multivariate calculus. Their math teachers can teach other math classes and multivariate when needed.

Gotta read the fine print. the course catalog might have MVC/Calc3 listed but it could be offered only alternate years, only when minimum class size is met, as independent study/virtually/asynch , etc

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid's 99th percentile quantitative reasoning score on the ERB CTP was only a 96th percentile score by independent school norms, and 97th for Classical Christian ones, which suggests that relatively speaking there are a far more high-performing math kids in private.

I will note that he's only accelerated to the point of the 8th grade algebra track, but this seems fine, because the class goes deeper into the material. The school will accelerate further with serious math phenoms - but his 99% didn't cut it.

You do often get more specialized courses being offered in giant publics that cater to an educated populace, especially giant selective publics like TJ, because the population base is so much larger. But large privates with a sufficient quantity of elite students can offer quite advanced courses (Sidwell offers linear algebra, Heights multivariable calculus, Flint Hill has both in their catalog).

Given that public schools educate absolutely everybody, including special needs, economically disadvantaged, etc., it is not surprising that percentages shake out this way. When people say "public school math is better" they are clearly talking about the subset of students who would be able to go to either public or private.

There is so much variation, though, that it's hard to say which is "better." Is math education better at DC-area magnets than at top privates? Certainly you're more likely to run into an IMO qualifier at TJ, or other forms of non-contest-based awesomeness, so to the extent that peer group matters, there's that. Not sure how that generalizes outside the top places.

Bottom line, if private school kids are interested in math, they should know where the bar really is for excellence and seek resources elsewhere as necessary. The best kids at the top 3 can/should probably go a bit further than they're asked to.

Best kids could probably always do better, because everyone could always do better.

I wonder if this is true, generally speaking. 2024 IMO team had two kids attending private virtual schools, one kid in a private performing arts school, and three kids in public. TJ is a six hundred pound gorilla, though, so it could indeed be true of this area.

I don't think the IMO kids learned their math in school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see that the top students in private schools do have math tutors or go to specialized schools like RSM to enhance their math knowledge. Why this is the case?

I was a math tutor (not with RSM) for many years. My students from private schools either a) needed additional support beyond what the school could reasonably offer or b) were using the summer to jump a level or get a head start. It wasn't related to the school not accelerating enough, but rather the opposite!

Most established private schools will extend the math curriculum as far as needed. Sometimes that top class (say, multivariable) will be quite small, but they're fully able to do it. If no one needs that class in a given year, they won't offer it. You just need to ask to confirm it will be a possibility in the future.

OP, are you asking in regard to a certain grade level? I've found these questions tend to pop up in middle school because many privates won't offer options beyond Algebra in those grades. At least from my perspective, this makes sense. My oldest is strong in math and I get the push for acceleration, but so often, it's not a good idea – pedagogically and developmentally. Having a strong, deep foundation in Algebra is SO much better than pushing through to Calculus with only a surface-level understanding of why things work. Believe me, it pays off later to have an excellent Algebra teacher who can make sure you really get it versus just memorizing the steps so you can zoom through. Your brain literally needs to be ready for those super abstract concepts!

This is such BS.

Publics are heads and tails ahead of privates in this space.

No private hires a teacher for a few kids to do multivariable calculus. LOL

You really need to remove your bias against kids in private. Mine is at a highly regarded school for math. She is in honors math and the kid from TJ dropped the class because it was too hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see that the top students in private schools do have math tutors or go to specialized schools like RSM to enhance their math knowledge. Why this is the case?

I was a math tutor (not with RSM) for many years. My students from private schools either a) needed additional support beyond what the school could reasonably offer or b) were using the summer to jump a level or get a head start. It wasn't related to the school not accelerating enough, but rather the opposite!

Most established private schools will extend the math curriculum as far as needed. Sometimes that top class (say, multivariable) will be quite small, but they're fully able to do it. If no one needs that class in a given year, they won't offer it. You just need to ask to confirm it will be a possibility in the future.

OP, are you asking in regard to a certain grade level? I've found these questions tend to pop up in middle school because many privates won't offer options beyond Algebra in those grades. At least from my perspective, this makes sense. My oldest is strong in math and I get the push for acceleration, but so often, it's not a good idea – pedagogically and developmentally. Having a strong, deep foundation in Algebra is SO much better than pushing through to Calculus with only a surface-level understanding of why things work. Believe me, it pays off later to have an excellent Algebra teacher who can make sure you really get it versus just memorizing the steps so you can zoom through. Your brain literally needs to be ready for those super abstract concepts!

This is such BS.

Publics are heads and tails ahead of privates in this space.

No private hires a teacher for a few kids to do multivariable calculus. LOL

You really need to remove your bias against kids in private. Mine is at a highly regarded school for math. She is in honors math and the kid from TJ dropped the class because it was too hard.

This post makes no sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid's 99th percentile quantitative reasoning score on the ERB CTP was only a 96th percentile score by independent school norms, and 97th for Classical Christian ones, which suggests that relatively speaking there are a far more high-performing math kids in private.

I will note that he's only accelerated to the point of the 8th grade algebra track, but this seems fine, because the class goes deeper into the material. The school will accelerate further with serious math phenoms - but his 99% didn't cut it.

You do often get more specialized courses being offered in giant publics that cater to an educated populace, especially giant selective publics like TJ, because the population base is so much larger. But large privates with a sufficient quantity of elite students can offer quite advanced courses (Sidwell offers linear algebra, Heights multivariable calculus, Flint Hill has both in their catalog).

Given that public schools educate absolutely everybody, including special needs, economically disadvantaged, etc., it is not surprising that percentages shake out this way. When people say "public school math is better" they are clearly talking about the subset of students who would be able to go to either public or private.

There is so much variation, though, that it's hard to say which is "better." Is math education better at DC-area magnets than at top privates? Certainly you're more likely to run into an IMO qualifier at TJ, or other forms of non-contest-based awesomeness, so to the extent that peer group matters, there's that. Not sure how that generalizes outside the top places.

Bottom line, if private school kids are interested in math, they should know where the bar really is for excellence and seek resources elsewhere as necessary. The best kids at the top 3 can/should probably go a bit further than they're asked to.

Better really comes down to the actual teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see that the top students in private schools do have math tutors or go to specialized schools like RSM to enhance their math knowledge. Why this is the case?

I was a math tutor (not with RSM) for many years. My students from private schools either a) needed additional support beyond what the school could reasonably offer or b) were using the summer to jump a level or get a head start. It wasn't related to the school not accelerating enough, but rather the opposite!

Most established private schools will extend the math curriculum as far as needed. Sometimes that top class (say, multivariable) will be quite small, but they're fully able to do it. If no one needs that class in a given year, they won't offer it. You just need to ask to confirm it will be a possibility in the future.

OP, are you asking in regard to a certain grade level? I've found these questions tend to pop up in middle school because many privates won't offer options beyond Algebra in those grades. At least from my perspective, this makes sense. My oldest is strong in math and I get the push for acceleration, but so often, it's not a good idea – pedagogically and developmentally. Having a strong, deep foundation in Algebra is SO much better than pushing through to Calculus with only a surface-level understanding of why things work. Believe me, it pays off later to have an excellent Algebra teacher who can make sure you really get it versus just memorizing the steps so you can zoom through. Your brain literally needs to be ready for those super abstract concepts!

This is such BS.

Publics are heads and tails ahead of privates in this space.

No private hires a teacher for a few kids to do multivariable calculus. LOL

You really need to remove your bias against kids in private. Mine is at a highly regarded school for math. She is in honors math and the kid from TJ dropped the class because it was too hard.

What does this mean? Honors means nothing. What grade and class are they taking. My kid is in 10th taking calc bc. No private had that track when I called a few years ago to move to private.

[Anonymous]

"I only need to know Algebra to track my wealth. I have Wealth Managers to do the rest of the math."

Under the Trump administration, I only need subtraction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see that the top students in private schools do have math tutors or go to specialized schools like RSM to enhance their math knowledge. Why this is the case?

I was a math tutor (not with RSM) for many years. My students from private schools either a) needed additional support beyond what the school could reasonably offer or b) were using the summer to jump a level or get a head start. It wasn't related to the school not accelerating enough, but rather the opposite!

Most established private schools will extend the math curriculum as far as needed. Sometimes that top class (say, multivariable) will be quite small, but they're fully able to do it. If no one needs that class in a given year, they won't offer it. You just need to ask to confirm it will be a possibility in the future.

OP, are you asking in regard to a certain grade level? I've found these questions tend to pop up in middle school because many privates won't offer options beyond Algebra in those grades. At least from my perspective, this makes sense. My oldest is strong in math and I get the push for acceleration, but so often, it's not a good idea – pedagogically and developmentally. Having a strong, deep foundation in Algebra is SO much better than pushing through to Calculus with only a surface-level understanding of why things work. Believe me, it pays off later to have an excellent Algebra teacher who can make sure you really get it versus just memorizing the steps so you can zoom through. Your brain literally needs to be ready for those super abstract concepts!

This is such BS.

Publics are heads and tails ahead of privates in this space.

No private hires a teacher for a few kids to do multivariable calculus. LOL

You really need to remove your bias against kids in private. Mine is at a highly regarded school for math. She is in honors math and the kid from TJ dropped the class because it was too hard.

What does this mean? Honors means nothing. What grade and class are they taking. My kid is in 10th taking calc bc. No private had that track when I called a few years ago to move to private.

Unfortunately, many parents equate rigor
with quality, and there are weird bragging rights that a class/program is hard.

I had a student at a school like this and the "teach yourself" model worked only for a few kids well. While some struggle and challenge is valid, there is a point when some teacher scaffolding is optimal for learning. This school was incredibly rigid and shockingly ineffective at supporting kids, all of whom are bright and had high standardized test scores for math. Basically kids quietly got tutors and supported each other through it.

The other school met the kids where they were and then offered opportunities for acceleration when my kid was ready. Kids at that school are in BC Calc as freshmen if they are assessed to handle it. My kid started in Geometry in 9th, BC in 11th, and a post-Calc class next year.

So IMO, the better private programs are not the arrogant and rigid ones, but the ones that are flexible, innovative, and offer lots of approaches to learn, meeting kids ad they develop.

Publics are probably not flexible per se, but can offer a lot of differentiation because there are so many kids, and I imagine that the magnets are able to attract the best teachers and curricula.

[Anonymous]

Religion

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see that the top students in private schools do have math tutors or go to specialized schools like RSM to enhance their math knowledge. Why this is the case?

I was a math tutor (not with RSM) for many years. My students from private schools either a) needed additional support beyond what the school could reasonably offer or b) were using the summer to jump a level or get a head start. It wasn't related to the school not accelerating enough, but rather the opposite!

Most established private schools will extend the math curriculum as far as needed. Sometimes that top class (say, multivariable) will be quite small, but they're fully able to do it. If no one needs that class in a given year, they won't offer it. You just need to ask to confirm it will be a possibility in the future.

OP, are you asking in regard to a certain grade level? I've found these questions tend to pop up in middle school because many privates won't offer options beyond Algebra in those grades. At least from my perspective, this makes sense. My oldest is strong in math and I get the push for acceleration, but so often, it's not a good idea – pedagogically and developmentally. Having a strong, deep foundation in Algebra is SO much better than pushing through to Calculus with only a surface-level understanding of why things work. Believe me, it pays off later to have an excellent Algebra teacher who can make sure you really get it versus just memorizing the steps so you can zoom through. Your brain literally needs to be ready for those super abstract concepts!

This is such BS.

Publics are heads and tails ahead of privates in this space.

No private hires a teacher for a few kids to do multivariable calculus. LOL

You really need to remove your bias against kids in private. Mine is at a highly regarded school for math. She is in honors math and the kid from TJ dropped the class because it was too hard.

What does this mean? Honors means nothing. What grade and class are they taking. My kid is in 10th taking calc bc. No private had that track when I called a few years ago to move to private.

Unfortunately, many parents equate rigor
with quality, and there are weird bragging rights that a class/program is hard.

I had a student at a school like this and the "teach yourself" model worked only for a few kids well. While some struggle and challenge is valid, there is a point when some teacher scaffolding is optimal for learning. This school was incredibly rigid and shockingly ineffective at supporting kids, all of whom are bright and had high standardized test scores for math. Basically kids quietly got tutors and supported each other through it.

The other school met the kids where they were and then offered opportunities for acceleration when my kid was ready. Kids at that school are in BC Calc as freshmen if they are assessed to handle it. My kid started in Geometry in 9th, BC in 11th, and a post-Calc class next year.

So IMO, the better private programs are not the arrogant and rigid ones, but the ones that are flexible, innovative, and offer lots of approaches to learn, meeting kids ad they develop.

Publics are probably not flexible per se, but can offer a lot of differentiation because there are so many kids, and I imagine that the magnets are able to attract the best teachers and curricula.

the other difference is logistics. Public school is usually elementary school, middle school then high school only having 9-12th grades. So it makes it hard to take classes beyond what is offered while in middle school.

A private school that is K-12 on one campus, or middle and high on one campus, makes it easier to do that

[Anonymous]

I just think that getting good math teachers is expensive and schools just prefer to hire subpar math teachers to save money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see that the top students in private schools do have math tutors or go to specialized schools like RSM to enhance their math knowledge. Why this is the case?

I was a math tutor (not with RSM) for many years. My students from private schools either a) needed additional support beyond what the school could reasonably offer or b) were using the summer to jump a level or get a head start. It wasn't related to the school not accelerating enough, but rather the opposite!

Most established private schools will extend the math curriculum as far as needed. Sometimes that top class (say, multivariable) will be quite small, but they're fully able to do it. If no one needs that class in a given year, they won't offer it. You just need to ask to confirm it will be a possibility in the future.

OP, are you asking in regard to a certain grade level? I've found these questions tend to pop up in middle school because many privates won't offer options beyond Algebra in those grades. At least from my perspective, this makes sense. My oldest is strong in math and I get the push for acceleration, but so often, it's not a good idea – pedagogically and developmentally. Having a strong, deep foundation in Algebra is SO much better than pushing through to Calculus with only a surface-level understanding of why things work. Believe me, it pays off later to have an excellent Algebra teacher who can make sure you really get it versus just memorizing the steps so you can zoom through. Your brain literally needs to be ready for those super abstract concepts!

This is such BS.

Publics are heads and tails ahead of privates in this space.

No private hires a teacher for a few kids to do multivariable calculus. LOL

Um a bunch of DMV private's have multi. Those classes are smaller but the teacher is normally teaching other classes too so it's not a separate hire.

That PP is so stupid that they don't even understand that "a few kids" is a normal size class at a good private school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid's 99th percentile quantitative reasoning score on the ERB CTP was only a 96th percentile score by independent school norms, and 97th for Classical Christian ones, which suggests that relatively speaking there are a far more high-performing math kids in private.

I will note that he's only accelerated to the point of the 8th grade algebra track, but this seems fine, because the class goes deeper into the material. The school will accelerate further with serious math phenoms - but his 99% didn't cut it.

You do often get more specialized courses being offered in giant publics that cater to an educated populace, especially giant selective publics like TJ, because the population base is so much larger. But large privates with a sufficient quantity of elite students can offer quite advanced courses (Sidwell offers linear algebra, Heights multivariable calculus, Flint Hill has both in their catalog).

That's within margin of error, CTP is primarily a private school test, and norms say more about the population being trusted than the education provided to them.