How to heal relationship between schools and families.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a parent I would love to get documents before a meeting. That is a place to start for schools to build a relationship with parents

What school district are you in? In MD, you have a right to all documents referenced at the meeting 5 days in advance. In DC there is also a right to receive materials in advance. (not sure how many days). You also have a right under FERPA to any educational record with your kid's name on it plus any necessary material to understand it (test, answer key, MAP results and breakdowns, etc.) You can ask for this to be provided prior to a meeting.

I have actually stopped in the middle of an IEP meeting when presented with unfamiliar documents and said, "I'm sorry, these documents should have been provided to me in the 5-day packet - we are going to have to adjourn this meeting and continue 5 business days or more from today, but prior to the timeline expiration. If the school refuses or tries to disincentivize me from time to review by offering a date another month or two away, I remind them that they are out of compliance and the only way to come back into compliance is to meet again within timeline because I am not waiving timeline. It's my right to participate as a full and equal team member, and I cannot do that without access to the information that is being used to make decisions about IEP eligibility and content."

You can bet the school never broke the 5-day rule again with me.

To all you teachers who blame parents for so many meetings - it's like blaming a woman for the fact her husband is beating her. I am not waiving my rights because someone on the team is incompetent.

You’re such peach. No one is out to take your rights. How far in advance did you receive documents? One document was missing and that was your response? Would you like the staff to not deliver services or would you like documents 5 days in advance? And that is not the law in my state. Get real. You are unreasonable and you are the problem. You are the reason special ed staff quit. You are the reason people don’t want to work in education. What a nightmare. You are so angry and bitter and trying to control.

That is the law in MD. Legal compliance is not optional. Cops don't get to say, I was too busy to read you your Miranda rights, so just shut up and don't complain and accept it. Neither does the school system get to say, we were too busy serving kids to comply with the law.

No, it wasn't just "one document was missing". I did not receive 7 teacher reports (14+ pages of material) that were used to form the basis of the PLOPs that the school wanted to write - PLOPs that said that my child was doing great. Except my child was not doing great; the team had cherry-picked the teacher reports, ignoring any negative comments or any comments that indicated my child was performing below grade level. When documents are presented during the meeting, I have no ability to read, analyze and rebut. But, when I have the *legally required* 5 day notice, I can analyze the teacher reports, compare them to what is on the draft PLOPs and look at the gradebook and student work to see if it matches what the teacher is saying. Often the proposed PLOPs from the school are rosy cherry-picking of data, because the better the student performance, the less the school has to do.

The school and teachers want to demonize parents - but it is the school staff that creates problems. I've worked with dozens of families who have been jerked around by the school resulting in more meetings and more paperwork.

FFS, how hard is it to forward teacher reports that come in - if an IEP manager has minimal professional skills, it's a click of a button to download these docs from emails or print to pdfs and share the files - put a tickler on the calendar.

This in a nutshell is why so many special Ed. teachers are quitting. This is the type of paperwork that takes up so much time and absolutely takes away hours of providing direct services to students. Why are there 7 teacher reports that are each 2 pages long for one student? And this parent thinks all it takes is a click of the button when the parent also wants answer keys, copies of anything with the students names, etc. All provided 5 days in advance so she can read, analyze and rebut, which is then going to lead to numerous meetings that involve general Ed teacher, special teachers and service providers to miss instruction with other students.

So now a couple of the other parents are upset so they want logs provided , more meetings which require more paperwork and/or , and emails answered. It’s a vicious cycle. And what most special Ed teachers really want to do is work directly with students.

Now add to that all the behavior problems that special Ed teachers are supposed to deal with when districts took away so many smaller class settings in the name of inclusion. So many general Ed teachers, special Ed teachers and paras are getting physically attacked repeatedly- Spit, hit, scratched, bit, and having things in the classroom
thrown at them.

Nationwide over 15% of students are in special education. And in some states like NY and Maine the rate is 20%.

And the most needy students - the ones who weren’t even able to attend school before Federal special Ed laws were passed in the 70’s services are getting diluted because there are so many parents who insist their child who is at grade level should have intensive services. It’s like the parent who posted they are mad their child with level 1 autism and doesn’t get services and if they were level 2 they would be in a class with 3 to 10 children. No idea where that poster is getting that crazy idea that 1 special Ed teacher is teaching a class with only 3 students.

So the analogy shouldn’t be with Miranda rights, a better analogy is that basic laws aren’t being enforced. Citizens should have a right to walk down the street without being harassed or assaulted but there aren’t enough police officers to enforce laws and mental health facilities to house and treat homeless aggressive individuals, so many crimes against people and property are not being reported, investigated or prosecuted.

My solution would be: massive investment in second and third grade of multiple reading teachers in every school who use proven systematic Orrin-gillingham reading curriculum and language development and pull students out in small groups of 3-5 students for up to 2 hours a day if needed. Some might need only 30 minutes a day 3 times a week while other would need 2 hours, five days a week. Not through special Ed which requires so much paperwork but through general Ed. That would reduce the number of special Ed students and many behavior problems that happen because a student is in upper elementary / secondary and are so behind in reading they can’t independently do their class work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a parent I would love to get documents before a meeting. That is a place to start for schools to build a relationship with parents

What school district are you in? In MD, you have a right to all documents referenced at the meeting 5 days in advance. In DC there is also a right to receive materials in advance. (not sure how many days). You also have a right under FERPA to any educational record with your kid's name on it plus any necessary material to understand it (test, answer key, MAP results and breakdowns, etc.) You can ask for this to be provided prior to a meeting.

I have actually stopped in the middle of an IEP meeting when presented with unfamiliar documents and said, "I'm sorry, these documents should have been provided to me in the 5-day packet - we are going to have to adjourn this meeting and continue 5 business days or more from today, but prior to the timeline expiration. If the school refuses or tries to disincentivize me from time to review by offering a date another month or two away, I remind them that they are out of compliance and the only way to come back into compliance is to meet again within timeline because I am not waiving timeline. It's my right to participate as a full and equal team member, and I cannot do that without access to the information that is being used to make decisions about IEP eligibility and content."

You can bet the school never broke the 5-day rule again with me.

To all you teachers who blame parents for so many meetings - it's like blaming a woman for the fact her husband is beating her. I am not waiving my rights because someone on the team is incompetent.

You’re such peach. No one is out to take your rights. How far in advance did you receive documents? One document was missing and that was your response? Would you like the staff to not deliver services or would you like documents 5 days in advance? And that is not the law in my state. Get real. You are unreasonable and you are the problem. You are the reason special ed staff quit. You are the reason people don’t want to work in education. What a nightmare. You are so angry and bitter and trying to control.

That is the law in MD. Legal compliance is not optional. Cops don't get to say, I was too busy to read you your Miranda rights, so just shut up and don't complain and accept it. Neither does the school system get to say, we were too busy serving kids to comply with the law.

No, it wasn't just "one document was missing". I did not receive 7 teacher reports (14+ pages of material) that were used to form the basis of the PLOPs that the school wanted to write - PLOPs that said that my child was doing great. Except my child was not doing great; the team had cherry-picked the teacher reports, ignoring any negative comments or any comments that indicated my child was performing below grade level. When documents are presented during the meeting, I have no ability to read, analyze and rebut. But, when I have the *legally required* 5 day notice, I can analyze the teacher reports, compare them to what is on the draft PLOPs and look at the gradebook and student work to see if it matches what the teacher is saying. Often the proposed PLOPs from the school are rosy cherry-picking of data, because the better the student performance, the less the school has to do.

The school and teachers want to demonize parents - but it is the school staff that creates problems. I've worked with dozens of families who have been jerked around by the school resulting in more meetings and more paperwork.

FFS, how hard is it to forward teacher reports that come in - if an IEP manager has minimal professional skills, it's a click of a button to download these docs from emails or print to pdfs and share the files - put a tickler on the calendar.

This in a nutshell is why so many special Ed. teachers are quitting. This is the type of paperwork that takes up so much time and absolutely takes away hours of providing direct services to students. Why are there 7 teacher reports that are each 2 pages long for one student? And this parent thinks all it takes is a click of the button when the parent also wants answer keys, copies of anything with the students names, etc. All provided 5 days in advance so she can read, analyze and rebut, which is then going to lead to numerous meetings that involve general Ed teacher, special teachers and service providers to miss instruction with other students.

So now a couple of the other parents are upset so they want logs provided , more meetings which require more paperwork and/or , and emails answered. It’s a vicious cycle. And what most special Ed teachers really want to do is work directly with students.

Now add to that all the behavior problems that special Ed teachers are supposed to deal with when districts took away so many smaller class settings in the name of inclusion. So many general Ed teachers, special Ed teachers and paras are getting physically attacked repeatedly- Spit, hit, scratched, bit, and having things in the classroom
thrown at them.

Nationwide over 15% of students are in special education. And in some states like NY and Maine the rate is 20%.

And the most needy students - the ones who weren’t even able to attend school before Federal special Ed laws were passed in the 70’s services are getting diluted because there are so many parents who insist their child who is at grade level should have intensive services. It’s like the parent who posted they are mad their child with level 1 autism and doesn’t get services and if they were level 2 they would be in a class with 3 to 10 children. No idea where that poster is getting that crazy idea that 1 special Ed teacher is teaching a class with only 3 students.

So the analogy shouldn’t be with Miranda rights, a better analogy is that basic laws aren’t being enforced. Citizens should have a right to walk down the street without being harassed or assaulted but there aren’t enough police officers to enforce laws and mental health facilities to house and treat homeless aggressive individuals, so many crimes against people and property are not being reported, investigated or prosecuted.

My solution would be: massive investment in second and third grade of multiple reading teachers in every school who use proven systematic Orrin-gillingham reading curriculum and language development and pull students out in small groups of 3-5 students for up to 2 hours a day if needed. Some might need only 30 minutes a day 3 times a week while other would need 2 hours, five days a week. Not through special Ed which requires so much paperwork but through general Ed. That would reduce the number of special Ed students and many behavior problems that happen because a student is in upper elementary / secondary and are so behind in reading they can’t independently do their class work.

DP here. I definitely hear what you are saying and I support the investments you are suggesting.

I do think it's unreasonable to expect parents to self ration services. I have a child with ASD1 and have gotten the clear impression special ed staff were scoffing at me even requesting an IEP for my child. I totally get there are more needy children and that the system is strained. In the past when my child was struggling more, we actually turned down services that were offered because I knew the system wasn't equipped to help DC's specific issues, so we started getting private services and have continued. I think parents should do what they can privately if they have the means. But I also think special ed staff need to acknowledge that the problem is the system, not the parents. Parents' job is to advocate for their children, not assess if their child is more or less deserving of supports than other children. With regards to ASD, I get the changes in the diagnostic criteria are confusing, and I also get that an ASD diagnosis does not entitle a child to special education, but do please realize the diagnosis is real and legitimate. Children with ASD1 do have support needs often including educational support needs, whether the system is equipped.to offer them or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a parent I would love to get documents before a meeting. That is a place to start for schools to build a relationship with parents

What school district are you in? In MD, you have a right to all documents referenced at the meeting 5 days in advance. In DC there is also a right to receive materials in advance. (not sure how many days). You also have a right under FERPA to any educational record with your kid's name on it plus any necessary material to understand it (test, answer key, MAP results and breakdowns, etc.) You can ask for this to be provided prior to a meeting.

I have actually stopped in the middle of an IEP meeting when presented with unfamiliar documents and said, "I'm sorry, these documents should have been provided to me in the 5-day packet - we are going to have to adjourn this meeting and continue 5 business days or more from today, but prior to the timeline expiration. If the school refuses or tries to disincentivize me from time to review by offering a date another month or two away, I remind them that they are out of compliance and the only way to come back into compliance is to meet again within timeline because I am not waiving timeline. It's my right to participate as a full and equal team member, and I cannot do that without access to the information that is being used to make decisions about IEP eligibility and content."

You can bet the school never broke the 5-day rule again with me.

To all you teachers who blame parents for so many meetings - it's like blaming a woman for the fact her husband is beating her. I am not waiving my rights because someone on the team is incompetent.

You’re such peach. No one is out to take your rights. How far in advance did you receive documents? One document was missing and that was your response? Would you like the staff to not deliver services or would you like documents 5 days in advance? And that is not the law in my state. Get real. You are unreasonable and you are the problem. You are the reason special ed staff quit. You are the reason people don’t want to work in education. What a nightmare. You are so angry and bitter and trying to control.

That is the law in MD. Legal compliance is not optional. Cops don't get to say, I was too busy to read you your Miranda rights, so just shut up and don't complain and accept it. Neither does the school system get to say, we were too busy serving kids to comply with the law.

No, it wasn't just "one document was missing". I did not receive 7 teacher reports (14+ pages of material) that were used to form the basis of the PLOPs that the school wanted to write - PLOPs that said that my child was doing great. Except my child was not doing great; the team had cherry-picked the teacher reports, ignoring any negative comments or any comments that indicated my child was performing below grade level. When documents are presented during the meeting, I have no ability to read, analyze and rebut. But, when I have the *legally required* 5 day notice, I can analyze the teacher reports, compare them to what is on the draft PLOPs and look at the gradebook and student work to see if it matches what the teacher is saying. Often the proposed PLOPs from the school are rosy cherry-picking of data, because the better the student performance, the less the school has to do.

The school and teachers want to demonize parents - but it is the school staff that creates problems. I've worked with dozens of families who have been jerked around by the school resulting in more meetings and more paperwork.

FFS, how hard is it to forward teacher reports that come in - if an IEP manager has minimal professional skills, it's a click of a button to download these docs from emails or print to pdfs and share the files - put a tickler on the calendar.

"Cops don't get to say, I was too busy to read you your Miranda rights, so just shut up and don't complain and accept it. Neither does the school system get to say, we were too busy serving kids to comply with the law." Do you go to the police department, request meeting and forms, demand police services like a cop outside your street because you think you need one, and then when the cops tell you that it doesn't work that way, do you sue them, bash them online, get hostile, tell them they are wrong, and that the system is broke? No you don't. people accept the limits of other public institutions. They do not accept them of the schools. The expectations are unrealistic. Especially in this area with the entitled, litigious parents who just hate the school systems here. To all you people that hate the schools here, MOVE!!! Go take your children somewhere else! Get new jobs, work from home, just GO! You think it can be done better? By all means , please go and take your tax dollars to a "better" district and see what you get there too. I am certain it is worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a parent I would love to get documents before a meeting. That is a place to start for schools to build a relationship with parents

What school district are you in? In MD, you have a right to all documents referenced at the meeting 5 days in advance. In DC there is also a right to receive materials in advance. (not sure how many days). You also have a right under FERPA to any educational record with your kid's name on it plus any necessary material to understand it (test, answer key, MAP results and breakdowns, etc.) You can ask for this to be provided prior to a meeting.

I have actually stopped in the middle of an IEP meeting when presented with unfamiliar documents and said, "I'm sorry, these documents should have been provided to me in the 5-day packet - we are going to have to adjourn this meeting and continue 5 business days or more from today, but prior to the timeline expiration. If the school refuses or tries to disincentivize me from time to review by offering a date another month or two away, I remind them that they are out of compliance and the only way to come back into compliance is to meet again within timeline because I am not waiving timeline. It's my right to participate as a full and equal team member, and I cannot do that without access to the information that is being used to make decisions about IEP eligibility and content."

You can bet the school never broke the 5-day rule again with me.

To all you teachers who blame parents for so many meetings - it's like blaming a woman for the fact her husband is beating her. I am not waiving my rights because someone on the team is incompetent.

You’re such peach. No one is out to take your rights. How far in advance did you receive documents? One document was missing and that was your response? Would you like the staff to not deliver services or would you like documents 5 days in advance? And that is not the law in my state. Get real. You are unreasonable and you are the problem. You are the reason special ed staff quit. You are the reason people don’t want to work in education. What a nightmare. You are so angry and bitter and trying to control.

That is the law in MD. Legal compliance is not optional. Cops don't get to say, I was too busy to read you your Miranda rights, so just shut up and don't complain and accept it. Neither does the school system get to say, we were too busy serving kids to comply with the law.

No, it wasn't just "one document was missing". I did not receive 7 teacher reports (14+ pages of material) that were used to form the basis of the PLOPs that the school wanted to write - PLOPs that said that my child was doing great. Except my child was not doing great; the team had cherry-picked the teacher reports, ignoring any negative comments or any comments that indicated my child was performing below grade level. When documents are presented during the meeting, I have no ability to read, analyze and rebut. But, when I have the *legally required* 5 day notice, I can analyze the teacher reports, compare them to what is on the draft PLOPs and look at the gradebook and student work to see if it matches what the teacher is saying. Often the proposed PLOPs from the school are rosy cherry-picking of data, because the better the student performance, the less the school has to do.

The school and teachers want to demonize parents - but it is the school staff that creates problems. I've worked with dozens of families who have been jerked around by the school resulting in more meetings and more paperwork.

FFS, how hard is it to forward teacher reports that come in - if an IEP manager has minimal professional skills, it's a click of a button to download these docs from emails or print to pdfs and share the files - put a tickler on the calendar.

"Cops don't get to say, I was too busy to read you your Miranda rights, so just shut up and don't complain and accept it. Neither does the school system get to say, we were too busy serving kids to comply with the law." Do you go to the police department, request meeting and forms, demand police services like a cop outside your street because you think you need one, and then when the cops tell you that it doesn't work that way, do you sue them, bash them online, get hostile, tell them they are wrong, and that the system is broke? No you don't. people accept the limits of other public institutions. They do not accept them of the schools. The expectations are unrealistic. Especially in this area with the entitled, litigious parents who just hate the school systems here. To all you people that hate the schools here, MOVE!!! Go take your children somewhere else! Get new jobs, work from home, just GO! You think it can be done better? By all means , please go and take your tax dollars to a "better" district and see what you get there too. I am certain it is worse.

Seriously, take a breath and walk away from the message board. And maybe look into a bit of a break from your profession.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a parent I would love to get documents before a meeting. That is a place to start for schools to build a relationship with parents

What school district are you in? In MD, you have a right to all documents referenced at the meeting 5 days in advance. In DC there is also a right to receive materials in advance. (not sure how many days). You also have a right under FERPA to any educational record with your kid's name on it plus any necessary material to understand it (test, answer key, MAP results and breakdowns, etc.) You can ask for this to be provided prior to a meeting.

I have actually stopped in the middle of an IEP meeting when presented with unfamiliar documents and said, "I'm sorry, these documents should have been provided to me in the 5-day packet - we are going to have to adjourn this meeting and continue 5 business days or more from today, but prior to the timeline expiration. If the school refuses or tries to disincentivize me from time to review by offering a date another month or two away, I remind them that they are out of compliance and the only way to come back into compliance is to meet again within timeline because I am not waiving timeline. It's my right to participate as a full and equal team member, and I cannot do that without access to the information that is being used to make decisions about IEP eligibility and content."

You can bet the school never broke the 5-day rule again with me.

To all you teachers who blame parents for so many meetings - it's like blaming a woman for the fact her husband is beating her. I am not waiving my rights because someone on the team is incompetent.

You’re such peach. No one is out to take your rights. How far in advance did you receive documents? One document was missing and that was your response? Would you like the staff to not deliver services or would you like documents 5 days in advance? And that is not the law in my state. Get real. You are unreasonable and you are the problem. You are the reason special ed staff quit. You are the reason people don’t want to work in education. What a nightmare. You are so angry and bitter and trying to control.

That is the law in MD. Legal compliance is not optional. Cops don't get to say, I was too busy to read you your Miranda rights, so just shut up and don't complain and accept it. Neither does the school system get to say, we were too busy serving kids to comply with the law.

No, it wasn't just "one document was missing". I did not receive 7 teacher reports (14+ pages of material) that were used to form the basis of the PLOPs that the school wanted to write - PLOPs that said that my child was doing great. Except my child was not doing great; the team had cherry-picked the teacher reports, ignoring any negative comments or any comments that indicated my child was performing below grade level. When documents are presented during the meeting, I have no ability to read, analyze and rebut. But, when I have the *legally required* 5 day notice, I can analyze the teacher reports, compare them to what is on the draft PLOPs and look at the gradebook and student work to see if it matches what the teacher is saying. Often the proposed PLOPs from the school are rosy cherry-picking of data, because the better the student performance, the less the school has to do.

The school and teachers want to demonize parents - but it is the school staff that creates problems. I've worked with dozens of families who have been jerked around by the school resulting in more meetings and more paperwork.

FFS, how hard is it to forward teacher reports that come in - if an IEP manager has minimal professional skills, it's a click of a button to download these docs from emails or print to pdfs and share the files - put a tickler on the calendar.

This in a nutshell is why so many special Ed. teachers are quitting. This is the type of paperwork that takes up so much time and absolutely takes away hours of providing direct services to students. Why are there 7 teacher reports that are each 2 pages long for one student? And this parent thinks all it takes is a click of the button when the parent also wants answer keys, copies of anything with the students names, etc. All provided 5 days in advance so she can read, analyze and rebut, which is then going to lead to numerous meetings that involve general Ed teacher, special teachers and service providers to miss instruction with other students.
i
So now a couple of the other parents are upset so they want logs provided , more meetings which require more paperwork and/or , and emails answered. It’s a vicious cycle. And what most special Ed teachers really want to do is work directly with students.

Now add to that all the behavior problems that special Ed teachers are supposed to deal with when districts took away so many smaller class settings in the name of inclusion. So many general Ed teachers, special Ed teachers and paras are getting physically attacked repeatedly- Spit, hit, scratched, bit, and having things in the classroom
thrown at them.

Nationwide over 15% of students are in special education. And in some states like NY and Maine the rate is 20%.

And the most needy students - the ones who weren’t even able to attend school before Federal special Ed laws were passed in the 70’s services are getting diluted because there are so many parents who insist their child who is at grade level should have intensive services. It’s like the parent who posted they are mad their child with level 1 autism and doesn’t get services and if they were level 2 they would be in a class with 3 to 10 children. No idea where that poster is getting that crazy idea that 1 special Ed teacher is teaching a class with only 3 students.

So the analogy shouldn’t be with Miranda rights, a better analogy is that basic laws aren’t being enforced. Citizens should have a right to walk down the street without being harassed or assaulted but there aren’t enough police officers to enforce laws and mental health facilities to house and treat homeless aggressive individuals, so many crimes against people and property are not being reported, investigated or prosecuted.

My solution would be: massive investment in second and third grade of multiple reading teachers in every school who use proven systematic Orrin-gillingham reading curriculum and language development and pull students out in small groups of 3-5 students for up to 2 hours a day if needed. Some might need only 30 minutes a day 3 times a week while other would need 2 hours, five days a week. Not through special Ed which requires so much paperwork but through general Ed. That would reduce the number of special Ed students and many behavior problems that happen because a student is in upper elementary / secondary and are so behind in reading they can’t independently do their class work.

It cracks me up how teachers want to bend over to make it seem like their job is soooooo difficult.

It's 7 2-page forms because in HS students have 7 teachers. So, each teacher completes one form a year. The form is 2 pages because of the visual layout (could have been one page) and generally asks teachers to check boxes on a form online. If there is more than two lines of free type-written text that would be unusual. It can't possibly take more than 10 minutes on the form. It is quite literally a few mouse clicks - click on the form to fill and click to send.

Yes, if a team or teacher lies or misrepresents or fails to comply with the law, then we're gonna have more meetings and spend more time, but that is a YOU (teacher, admin, school) problem, not a ME problem. (I didn't lie, misrepresent or behave illegally.)

Do your job correctly the first time, and we wouldn't all have to spend even more time fixing it.

It's not that hard, and if it is, you're doing it wrong.

WRT the above suggestion for increased OG supports for all in 3rd grade, this is actually too late. The school system should have a bet-tested, data-proven reading curriculum for all students starting in K instead of having each teacher make up how they will teach reading as they go. Personally, I do have sympathy when teachers say they have to "lesson plan" - they shouldn't have to do this. Better gen ed instructional packages that provide day by day lesson plans for all teachers in a certain subject/grade with scaffolding and enrichment options for each lesson would cut down on teacher's work. There also should be greater use of special ed instructional packages. It's a crime that all teachers aren't teaching OG from pre-K on. We would have far fewer problems.

But, again when the school system can't or won't do the job (teaching reading) right the first time (in preK-2, then we all end up spending time and money trying to fix that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a parent I just think the system sucks. I definitely feel for special educators who are caught in the middle of it. My experience is with my child being deemed not eligible for an IEP. That's fine and reasonable but what I don't like is the impulse the special ed staff have to try to gaslight you into thinking your child doesn't need any support (in school or out of school) or that the diagnoses are wrong based on a very basic screening. Every licensed professional my child has worked with for longer than 1 hour would 100% agree with the diagnoses. In our meeting one of the therapists was practically rolling her eyes at the diagnoses, which just makes them lose credibility for me. I worry a lot of kids don't get the support they need because they are intentionally trying to lull families into complacency. And I get it, the system is over-burdened, but it definitely feels a little dishonest and bordering on abusive the way they speak to parents sometimes.

+1

What kills me is “diagnosis disbelief. “

we give over a 200+ page file of requested reports, doctor letters, ot evaluations, tests, input from past teachers, therapists, etc. that all say one thing.

But once we get to the IEP meeting it suddenly becomes “we don’t believe this diagnosis. Your child has (one positive trait).”

It happens every single time we are bounced from meeting to meeting with a new administrator at the table.

One of DCs doctors wrote a strongly worded letter to the effect of “dear Administrator: You are not qualified to diagnose a complex medical condition unless you have you are a medical doctor board-certified in….”

It’s like the poster who said if your child can get a C then they shouldn’t be in special ed. There are SO many types of disabilities that make it hard of not impossible to be in a mainstream setting at school.

[Anonymous]

I have a 2E dyslexic child and ended up getting trained as an OG tutor to support them. There are so many issues with the system.

But I think a lot of it starts with Tier 1 instruction. If the regular classrooms were smaller, had more appropriate academic expectations, supported by good structured reading, writing and math curricula, with arts and SEL then I think a lot of “milder” issues could truly be managed in Gen Ed.

I also think there should be 2 teachers in classes through 3rd grade and a lot more time spent outside playing.

But we’ve been cutting school budgets for years. The kids with extra needs are like the canaries in the gold mine.

I hope all of the efforts to get the science of reading and dyslexia screenings into schools will pay off in terms of fewer kids needing special education support. But that is a really long game.

And those of us in the weeds every day fighting to get our children and/ or students through the system with as much emotional health and achievement as possible really don’t have time to take on that work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a parent I would love to get documents before a meeting. That is a place to start for schools to build a relationship with parents

What school district are you in? In MD, you have a right to all documents referenced at the meeting 5 days in advance. In DC there is also a right to receive materials in advance. (not sure how many days). You also have a right under FERPA to any educational record with your kid's name on it plus any necessary material to understand it (test, answer key, MAP results and breakdowns, etc.) You can ask for this to be provided prior to a meeting.

I have actually stopped in the middle of an IEP meeting when presented with unfamiliar documents and said, "I'm sorry, these documents should have been provided to me in the 5-day packet - we are going to have to adjourn this meeting and continue 5 business days or more from today, but prior to the timeline expiration. If the school refuses or tries to disincentivize me from time to review by offering a date another month or two away, I remind them that they are out of compliance and the only way to come back into compliance is to meet again within timeline because I am not waiving timeline. It's my right to participate as a full and equal team member, and I cannot do that without access to the information that is being used to make decisions about IEP eligibility and content."

You can bet the school never broke the 5-day rule again with me.

To all you teachers who blame parents for so many meetings - it's like blaming a woman for the fact her husband is beating her. I am not waiving my rights because someone on the team is incompetent.

You’re such peach. No one is out to take your rights. How far in advance did you receive documents? One document was missing and that was your response? Would you like the staff to not deliver services or would you like documents 5 days in advance? And that is not the law in my state. Get real. You are unreasonable and you are the problem. You are the reason special ed staff quit. You are the reason people don’t want to work in education. What a nightmare. You are so angry and bitter and trying to control.

That is the law in MD. Legal compliance is not optional. Cops don't get to say, I was too busy to read you your Miranda rights, so just shut up and don't complain and accept it. Neither does the school system get to say, we were too busy serving kids to comply with the law.

No, it wasn't just "one document was missing". I did not receive 7 teacher reports (14+ pages of material) that were used to form the basis of the PLOPs that the school wanted to write - PLOPs that said that my child was doing great. Except my child was not doing great; the team had cherry-picked the teacher reports, ignoring any negative comments or any comments that indicated my child was performing below grade level. When documents are presented during the meeting, I have no ability to read, analyze and rebut. But, when I have the *legally required* 5 day notice, I can analyze the teacher reports, compare them to what is on the draft PLOPs and look at the gradebook and student work to see if it matches what the teacher is saying. Often the proposed PLOPs from the school are rosy cherry-picking of data, because the better the student performance, the less the school has to do.

The school and teachers want to demonize parents - but it is the school staff that creates problems. I've worked with dozens of families who have been jerked around by the school resulting in more meetings and more paperwork.

FFS, how hard is it to forward teacher reports that come in - if an IEP manager has minimal professional skills, it's a click of a button to download these docs from emails or print to pdfs and share the files - put a tickler on the calendar.

This in a nutshell is why so many special Ed. teachers are quitting. This is the type of paperwork that takes up so much time and absolutely takes away hours of providing direct services to students. Why are there 7 teacher reports that are each 2 pages long for one student? And this parent thinks all it takes is a click of the button when the parent also wants answer keys, copies of anything with the students names, etc. All provided 5 days in advance so she can read, analyze and rebut, which is then going to lead to numerous meetings that involve general Ed teacher, special teachers and service providers to miss instruction with other students.

So now a couple of the other parents are upset so they want logs provided , more meetings which require more paperwork and/or , and emails answered. It’s a vicious cycle. And what most special Ed teachers really want to do is work directly with students.

Now add to that all the behavior problems that special Ed teachers are supposed to deal with when districts took away so many smaller class settings in the name of inclusion. So many general Ed teachers, special Ed teachers and paras are getting physically attacked repeatedly- Spit, hit, scratched, bit, and having things in the classroom
thrown at them.

Nationwide over 15% of students are in special education. And in some states like NY and Maine the rate is 20%.

And the most needy students - the ones who weren’t even able to attend school before Federal special Ed laws were passed in the 70’s services are getting diluted because there are so many parents who insist their child who is at grade level should have intensive services. It’s like the parent who posted they are mad their child with level 1 autism and doesn’t get services and if they were level 2 they would be in a class with 3 to 10 children. No idea where that poster is getting that crazy idea that 1 special Ed teacher is teaching a class with only 3 students.

So the analogy shouldn’t be with Miranda rights, a better analogy is that basic laws aren’t being enforced. Citizens should have a right to walk down the street without being harassed or assaulted but there aren’t enough police officers to enforce laws and mental health facilities to house and treat homeless aggressive individuals, so many crimes against people and property are not being reported, investigated or prosecuted.

My solution would be: massive investment in second and third grade of multiple reading teachers in every school who use proven systematic Orrin-gillingham reading curriculum and language development and pull students out in small groups of 3-5 students for up to 2 hours a day if needed. Some might need only 30 minutes a day 3 times a week while other would need 2 hours, five days a week. Not through special Ed which requires so much paperwork but through general Ed. That would reduce the number of special Ed students and many behavior problems that happen because a student is in upper elementary / secondary and are so behind in reading they can’t independently do their class work.

Maryland has classes that are 1 to 1 ratio and my friend with a down syndrome child has a 1 to 3 ratio in half of their classes. That's where I got those from.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a parent I would love to get documents before a meeting. That is a place to start for schools to build a relationship with parents

What school district are you in? In MD, you have a right to all documents referenced at the meeting 5 days in advance. In DC there is also a right to receive materials in advance. (not sure how many days). You also have a right under FERPA to any educational record with your kid's name on it plus any necessary material to understand it (test, answer key, MAP results and breakdowns, etc.) You can ask for this to be provided prior to a meeting.

I have actually stopped in the middle of an IEP meeting when presented with unfamiliar documents and said, "I'm sorry, these documents should have been provided to me in the 5-day packet - we are going to have to adjourn this meeting and continue 5 business days or more from today, but prior to the timeline expiration. If the school refuses or tries to disincentivize me from time to review by offering a date another month or two away, I remind them that they are out of compliance and the only way to come back into compliance is to meet again within timeline because I am not waiving timeline. It's my right to participate as a full and equal team member, and I cannot do that without access to the information that is being used to make decisions about IEP eligibility and content."

You can bet the school never broke the 5-day rule again with me.

To all you teachers who blame parents for so many meetings - it's like blaming a woman for the fact her husband is beating her. I am not waiving my rights because someone on the team is incompetent.

You’re such peach. No one is out to take your rights. How far in advance did you receive documents? One document was missing and that was your response? Would you like the staff to not deliver services or would you like documents 5 days in advance? And that is not the law in my state. Get real. You are unreasonable and you are the problem. You are the reason special ed staff quit. You are the reason people don’t want to work in education. What a nightmare. You are so angry and bitter and trying to control.

That is the law in MD. Legal compliance is not optional. Cops don't get to say, I was too busy to read you your Miranda rights, so just shut up and don't complain and accept it. Neither does the school system get to say, we were too busy serving kids to comply with the law.

No, it wasn't just "one document was missing". I did not receive 7 teacher reports (14+ pages of material) that were used to form the basis of the PLOPs that the school wanted to write - PLOPs that said that my child was doing great. Except my child was not doing great; the team had cherry-picked the teacher reports, ignoring any negative comments or any comments that indicated my child was performing below grade level. When documents are presented during the meeting, I have no ability to read, analyze and rebut. But, when I have the *legally required* 5 day notice, I can analyze the teacher reports, compare them to what is on the draft PLOPs and look at the gradebook and student work to see if it matches what the teacher is saying. Often the proposed PLOPs from the school are rosy cherry-picking of data, because the better the student performance, the less the school has to do.

The school and teachers want to demonize parents - but it is the school staff that creates problems. I've worked with dozens of families who have been jerked around by the school resulting in more meetings and more paperwork.

FFS, how hard is it to forward teacher reports that come in - if an IEP manager has minimal professional skills, it's a click of a button to download these docs from emails or print to pdfs and share the files - put a tickler on the calendar.

This in a nutshell is why so many special Ed. teachers are quitting. This is the type of paperwork that takes up so much time and absolutely takes away hours of providing direct services to students. Why are there 7 teacher reports that are each 2 pages long for one student? And this parent thinks all it takes is a click of the button when the parent also wants answer keys, copies of anything with the students names, etc. All provided 5 days in advance so she can read, analyze and rebut, which is then going to lead to numerous meetings that involve general Ed teacher, special teachers and service providers to miss instruction with other students.
i
So now a couple of the other parents are upset so they want logs provided , more meetings which require more paperwork and/or , and emails answered. It’s a vicious cycle. And what most special Ed teachers really want to do is work directly with students.

Now add to that all the behavior problems that special Ed teachers are supposed to deal with when districts took away so many smaller class settings in the name of inclusion. So many general Ed teachers, special Ed teachers and paras are getting physically attacked repeatedly- Spit, hit, scratched, bit, and having things in the classroom
thrown at them.

Nationwide over 15% of students are in special education. And in some states like NY and Maine the rate is 20%.

And the most needy students - the ones who weren’t even able to attend school before Federal special Ed laws were passed in the 70’s services are getting diluted because there are so many parents who insist their child who is at grade level should have intensive services. It’s like the parent who posted they are mad their child with level 1 autism and doesn’t get services and if they were level 2 they would be in a class with 3 to 10 children. No idea where that poster is getting that crazy idea that 1 special Ed teacher is teaching a class with only 3 students.

So the analogy shouldn’t be with Miranda rights, a better analogy is that basic laws aren’t being enforced. Citizens should have a right to walk down the street without being harassed or assaulted but there aren’t enough police officers to enforce laws and mental health facilities to house and treat homeless aggressive individuals, so many crimes against people and property are not being reported, investigated or prosecuted.

My solution would be: massive investment in second and third grade of multiple reading teachers in every school who use proven systematic Orrin-gillingham reading curriculum and language development and pull students out in small groups of 3-5 students for up to 2 hours a day if needed. Some might need only 30 minutes a day 3 times a week while other would need 2 hours, five days a week. Not through special Ed which requires so much paperwork but through general Ed. That would reduce the number of special Ed students and many behavior problems that happen because a student is in upper elementary / secondary and are so behind in reading they can’t independently do their class work.

It cracks me up how teachers want to bend over to make it seem like their job is soooooo difficult.

It's 7 2-page forms because in HS students have 7 teachers. So, each teacher completes one form a year. The form is 2 pages because of the visual layout (could have been one page) and generally asks teachers to check boxes on a form online. If there is more than two lines of free type-written text that would be unusual. It can't possibly take more than 10 minutes on the form. It is quite literally a few mouse clicks - click on the form to fill and click to send.

Yes, if a team or teacher lies or misrepresents or fails to comply with the law, then we're gonna have more meetings and spend more time, but that is a YOU (teacher, admin, school) problem, not a ME problem. (I didn't lie, misrepresent or behave illegally.)

Do your job correctly the first time, and we wouldn't all have to spend even more time fixing it.

It's not that hard, and if it is, you're doing it wrong.

WRT the above suggestion for increased OG supports for all in 3rd grade, this is actually too late. The school system should have a bet-tested, data-proven reading curriculum for all students starting in K instead of having each teacher make up how they will teach reading as they go. Personally, I do have sympathy when teachers say they have to "lesson plan" - they shouldn't have to do this. Better gen ed instructional packages that provide day by day lesson plans for all teachers in a certain subject/grade with scaffolding and enrichment options for each lesson would cut down on teacher's work. There also should be greater use of special ed instructional packages. It's a crime that all teachers aren't teaching OG from pre-K on. We would have far fewer problems.

But, again when the school system can't or won't do the job (teaching reading) right the first time (in preK-2, then we all end up spending time and money trying to fix that.

"It cracks me up how teachers want to bend over to make it seem like their job is soooooo difficult."

Guaranteed you make every teacher's job worse. Parents like you are the reason teachers are fleeing. There are so many special education job vacancies and there will be more next year, yet you say the job isn't sooooooo difficult. I wonder when your child graduates who you are going to berate and pester?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The fundamental problem is that IDEA has created a bottomless pit of unfunded entitlements. The federal government has imposed huge requirements on school systems while not covering even a fifth of the cost, and the percentage of students covered by the law has doubled and then tripled. The gap between what parents very reasonably feel they are legally entitled to for their child (since that's what IDEA says), and what the school system is actually physically capable of providing, and the tension of trying to magically make 1+1=3, is driving parents crazy and burning out staff. And then the problem snowballs because less staff makes it all worse. Everyone is in a no-win situation.

I think the system is fundamentally broken, possibly beyond repair, we just haven't realized it yet. Special education staffing shortages are going to keep getting worse and bring it to its knees. No other country on earth provides such a vast well of education entitlements, for the reason that it fundamentally can't be supported. There HAS to be a limit--all public systems have to ration care and have a cutoff point at which they say "no more, the costs outweigh the benefits." It's brutal, but what we have now isn't working anyway and at least this way there would be some honesty about it instead of a shell game. And nothing is stopping the private sector from filling in the gaps. Either you have to vastly increase the funding so that all these entitlements can actually be provided and staff actually want to do the job, or you have to limit the entitlements, or some combination of the two.

I'll probably get tomatoes thrown at me but I am really alarmed at how the staffing shortages just keep getting worse and worse in some of the local districts and how fast they burn through new staff. If you don't have anybody to do the job the law sets out, you have nothing. That is the first and biggest problem, and something drastic has to be done.

Precisely

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a 2E dyslexic child and ended up getting trained as an OG tutor to support them. There are so many issues with the system.

But I think a lot of it starts with Tier 1 instruction. If the regular classrooms were smaller, had more appropriate academic expectations, supported by good structured reading, writing and math curricula, with arts and SEL then I think a lot of “milder” issues could truly be managed in Gen Ed.

I also think there should be 2 teachers in classes through 3rd grade and a lot more time spent outside playing.

But we’ve been cutting school budgets for years. The kids with extra needs are like the canaries in the gold mine.

I hope all of the efforts to get the science of reading and dyslexia screenings into schools will pay off in terms of fewer kids needing special education support. But that is a really long game.

And those of us in the weeds every day fighting to get our children and/ or students through the system with as much emotional health and achievement as possible really don’t have time to take on that work.

Which jurisdiction has been "cutting school budgets for years"?

[Anonymous]

The other thing worth noting is that because there are extra needs not everything can be after school even if money were no object. Kids get tired. There are so many hours. Other specialists have their own schedules. Maybe more special ed schools are the way to go and mainstream will go away. To say that the schools are too burdened to handle cases is basically saying your child should not attend. Here is the money. Teach him or her yourself. It's just not possible to do all of this out of school. I'm sorry that teachers are stressed but I agree that 7 2 page documents one for each teacher isn't too much for one special needs child and if the schools can't handle that for whatever reason because of the schedule, staffing shortages, irate parents or what have you then I think parents should be shown the door with a check. There are just too many hours during the school day not tot to get more help during them.

[Anonymous]

I was one of those parents who upset a teacher because I questioned how my child could be rated as being able to add and subtract within a 1,000 when she had a homework problem of 3,000-1018, and her answer was over 11,000 -- and when I said that couldn't be right, since 11,000 is bigger, she got frustrated and stomped off.

The teacher said I should treat her with respect, and she's a professional, and I'm the only one who can't get her to perform.

For context, this school refused to add learning disabilities to my kid's OHI IEP justification, despite an outside evaluation saying she had LD.

This teacher also told me she didn't think my kid had dyslexia because in her experience, kids with dyslexia didn't make the kind of progress my kid did.

We were tutoring, working super hard on doing reading every single day, working really hard on homework... it was a herculean effort to make that progress!

A later psych ed said my kid has moderate dyslexia.

The thing is, I think that was a good special ed teacher, and my kid generally was making a year's worth of progress in a year. But with the long covid closure and her own issues, she was sooooo far behind.

I don't agree that 25th percentile is average, by the way, from a PP. My kid has rated about 23rd percentile many times in reading -- and has been always at least a year below grade level and sometimes two years below grade level in comprehension in those same assessments.

Now at a different school. Love my kid's math special ed teacher. Seeing the problems with lack of staff (my kid had little ELA push in for months, and was just leaving class all the time b/c she couldn't keep up; didn't help that the first book they read was at Spring level proficiency in that grade year for average kid)

I still am suspicious of the pity grading. In gen ed, kid got D+ in ELA. Now that she's getting services (from a para) in pull out, she's given As in accuracy and fluency to support comprehension and determining theme. When I was at a parents' evening, and my kid's para tried to get her to talk about theme, she couldn't remember what the word meant.

When I ask my kid questions about her nightly reading, she still sometimes misses syllables -- eg., I asked her to read aloud 'logical explanation' before talking about what that phrase meant, and she said 'local' for 'logical'. She remembered 'punish' as 'push'

This is not 'secure, advanced' decoding. It may be the best in the pull-out room.

I hogged a lot of IEP time this year, too. But they still didn't add LD at first, even with the new psych ed, and there were a bunch of goals from last year's IEP that they didn't address whether she met or not when they wrote the new IEP... and it turned out, many she had not met. They didn't want to keep them instead of new ones, because they don't align with this year's common core. That's a systemic problem. In math, you need to be solid in one skill before you go on. They did agree to work on trying to get her done on those things... but it took extra meetings.

My kid is hard to teach, I know, her retention is poor. She'll be okay while they're working on the math unit at the time, but months later, it's like she never heard it.

Anyway, it's hard for all sides, I get it. I'm not asking for more than the 10 hrs of services my kid gets. But I just wish they would be honest with me/themselves about where my kid is (and by the way, she's no longer scoring at 23rd percentile. Now it's 7th, as the expectations get higher)

I tried applying to special ed school, even though it would have been a financial strain. They rejected her for behavior reasons. Which I get. But that means all I have is public school and tutoring and our work at home. So I'll keep pushing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’ve been thinking a lot on this topic, because there is what I see as a huge issue facing special education that makes outcomes worse for students. Disclaimer- I am a special educator who also has a child with ADHD, which makes me see things from both sides, the good and the bad.

Parents do not trust their schools. Sometimes for good reason- they’ve had bad experiences. Sometimes because they see a different child at home than their teachers do at school. I myself did not trust my child’s teacher when she said she was doing well and only needed a 504, because this child is a mess!! I live with her and see how disorganized she is. And sometimes for no good reason. Maybe someone on this board posted not to trust their school, or they have big misconceptions about the purpose of special education and allocation of resources.

The most talented special education professionals leave because of this. My friend, who is in my humble opinion an incredible teacher, left because she had many parents of her students who made it clear they didn’t trust her. They continually demanded daily email responses, logs of services provided, and 6 IEP meetings per year, each a contentious multi hour process. I have switched to a title one school, which I love because the parents are generally very grateful that we are helping their child and trusting of us as professionals. Special education positions aren’t easy to fill, and resources aren’t getting any more allocated to us by either political party. I think healing the anger that families feel is our first step towards success for our students. . I’m open to ideas on how we can do that ,

You answered your own question in the first paragraph:
"They have a big misconception about the purpose of special education and allocation of resources "

The law does not state that children with disabilities (who's disabilities effect that child's ability to access the curriculum) will be helped in order of what money is available. It does not state that children with disabilities will be helped to the extent that the school can with whatever change is left over at the end of the day.

If you would like to fix SpecEd then go to yoir school board and demand proper funding.
If we seem angry it's because WE ARE.

I see my child slipping through the cracks much in the same way we (parents) did at that age. Only now, we know the diagnosis, we know the why, we even know the how's and we know what the law says. But schools will do cartwheels and stand on their heads to avoid helping.

You realize that kids with autism are HIGHLY likely to become dysfunctional members of society without jobs or support. You, at a critical juncture in their lives, could make a difference. But you won't.

Kids with ADHD are much more likely to end up as addicts, to fail to launch out of their parents homes. But you could make a difference. Now. During the developmental years. But you're afraid of admin being mad at you.

That's why we're upset

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well, this will get flamed but I also think schools/counties/parents need to differentiate between special needs students who, with the right help and interventions, can become functioning members of society and students who, no matter what anyone does, will never hold any sort of job or live alone period. I'm not saying those students are not also deserving of help and support, but trying to paint both kinds of students with the same brush is not helpful to either group.

My kid will hopefully hold a job but will probably never live independently. He deserves and needs as many resources as he can get. Maybe we should separate out the kids who are special needs light and their parents have a lot of money. They take up a lions share of time and resources at my kids school. They are always complaining and having meetings.

I feel like this would be one of the easiest places to start limiting entitlements. Allow the school team to decline to have yet another periodic IEP review after a certain yearly quota, or to cut off a meeting after a certain number of hours (not continue it, end it). Somebody posted here once that they made their team have at least 5 IEP meetings per year and I was aghast. One family getting five 2-hour IEP meetings, or three 3-hour IEP meetings, or whatever, where 15-20 other kids miss hours of speech or reading intervention or whatever while the staff sit around the table listening to goals being nitpicked in ways that will have no functional impact, is exactly what "benefits do not outweigh the costs" refers to. I had to sit through 12 combined hours of meetings once for a child who didn't even attend the school and whose family had no intention of sending them. During that time, every child seen by the gen ed teacher, the special ed teacher, the SLP, and the OT missed their services. These are the types of cases that drive teachers out.

I remember needing to have a second IEP meeting pretty quickly once I realized the “ school team” didn’t put any of my child’s 504 accommodations into her IEP. Absolutely zero of them, but I’m sure that was an innocent oversight and I guess that IEP meeting was unnecessary. After all they just want what’s best for the child right.

This is kinda on you. You had a draft of the iep before the meeting and never looked at it? Also, I’m a sped teacher and I have no access to any 504 paperwork. So I would have no idea what would have been on a 504.

It is the obligation of the school-based IEP team to gather all available data about the child prior to the IEP meeting and share such documents with the parents in compliance with the 5day rule.

While you, individual sped teacher may not have access to the 504 plan, the person who is in charge of managing the IEP meeting certainly does and it is a serious error on the part if the IEP team manager not to include the 504 accommodations in the 504 plan.

Also, just because a student has an IEP doesn't mean the don't also qualify for a 504 - having an IEP doesn't extinguish 504 rights, but the IEP team is supposed to incorporate those accommodations on the IEP document so everything is in one place.

Please be educated about the whole system and the team obligations before you blame and shame parents.

Y’all are so confused and spreading false information. You cannot by law have both an IEP and a 504. A 504 gives accommodations. An IEP is given for eligible students with goals and services. If a child with an IEP needs accommodations, those go on the IEP. They don’t get a 504 good

Y’all are just nuts! You give suggestions on fixing the system but don’t even know the basics.

Actually it is you who is loud and wrong. You can do both at the same time. It usually isn't done, but it can be. It's especially useful if the medical condition that needs the 504 is temporary - like a student who gets a concussion and needs temporary accommodations for that, which wouldn't normally be needed on the IEP. There are other reasons as well, but you can absolutely do both.