APS Retake Policy change announced

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are people indicating that kid a could “keep taking the test” until they get an A. The policy allowed for ONE retake of a given test. Not repeated retakes, as some posters here claim.

Don’t let facts get in the way of a good APS bashing.

There were multiple retakes allowed at one point. Or at least that's how it was interpreted/talked about early on.

At least that is the rumor you enjoyed pushing.

When standards based grading first started in middle school, there were multiple retakes allowed by some teachers. Since the official policy started, I’ve not seen this anywhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are people indicating that kid a could “keep taking the test” until they get an A. The policy allowed for ONE retake of a given test. Not repeated retakes, as some posters here claim.

Don’t let facts get in the way of a good APS bashing.

There were multiple retakes allowed at one point. Or at least that's how it was interpreted/talked about early on.

At least that is the rumor you enjoyed pushing.

When standards based grading first started in middle school, there were multiple retakes allowed by some teachers. Since the official policy started, I’ve not seen this anywhere.

Aps is not doing standard based grading at the three traditional high schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are people indicating that kid a could “keep taking the test” until they get an A. The policy allowed for ONE retake of a given test. Not repeated retakes, as some posters here claim.

Don’t let facts get in the way of a good APS bashing.

There were multiple retakes allowed at one point. Or at least that's how it was interpreted/talked about early on.

At least that is the rumor you enjoyed pushing.

OK.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are people indicating that kid a could “keep taking the test” until they get an A. The policy allowed for ONE retake of a given test. Not repeated retakes, as some posters here claim.

Don’t let facts get in the way of a good APS bashing.

There were multiple retakes allowed at one point. Or at least that's how it was interpreted/talked about early on.

At least that is the rumor you enjoyed pushing.

When standards based grading first started in middle school, there were multiple retakes allowed by some teachers. Since the official policy started, I’ve not seen this anywhere.

Aps is not doing standard based grading at the three traditional high schools.

Doesn't change the fact that there was some element of multiple retakes. This policy covers all levels, not just high school.

[Anonymous]

Do teachers have discretion to deviate from the policy? For example, teacher gives a test and across the board grades are lower than usual or expected by the teacher. Maybe test was harder than teacher thought. Or a topic had not been adequately covered. Can the teacher allow retakes and give above an 80? Or throw the test out completely and give another one?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This policy is such a classic case of having a theoretical plan that goes wrong in the real world.

Of course the kids taking advantage will be the panicked A hunters. I agree with what a PP said. In this messed up environment, it is fully accurate that one B will blow your chances at a whole class of colleges. And they know it. These are very motivated kids and there are plenty of them.

The kids pulling Cs and Ds and failing and not getting the material who this policy was meant to capture and help. Are they really more motivated by this policy? Probably not much.

In my view this was all predictable, but hey they figured it out in the real world I guess.

Yes- it was all very foreseeable. But it was a policy created by the admin with teacher input (see above comment). I am shocked that aps made a mid year change that is to the detriment of the students. This will negatively impact the students. I think the lesson that kids are learning here is “adults will leave you high and dry if they get to do less work.” I think there could have been some structural changes that aps could have made that would have reduced teacher workload without changing the policy at the expense of students.

A nearby school district implement a very similar policy a few years ago. It was a complete sh!tshow the first year with a ton of extra work. But teachers worked together in their course content areas. All of the intensified chem teachers made one retake and then they took turns one day a week holding re-takes. So each teacher didn’t have to stay after every week. They only stayed after once or twice a month, and they didn’t have to make their own retakes they worked together. There are so many ways that aps could have made modifications. Of course, aps just listens to the loudest voices. The nearby school district did make changes in the summer for the next year. But no changes were allowed for the students. They had to keep whatever they said on the syllabus. The syllabus is a binding document that really cannot be changed, at least that’s how the nearby school district views it. I wish aps had the same honor and integrity to their students.

How many intensified chemistry teachers do they have? It does sound good and would work well for situations where a bunch of teachers teach the same class, but I know of many situations where there is only one teacher teaching a certain class. One teacher I know teaches three different classes and is the only one teaching them, and he has about 100 students.

Sure- there are a lot of teachers that teach singletons. Maybe this is an opportunity to reach out to other schools for test creation. Unless it is an IB or career center class, you might have one or two other teachers in the county that teach that subject. Creating an email group that works to create tests might be helpful. Proctoring tests can be done at the department level not subject level. So the 5 members of the CTE department share proctoring duties once a week for example. Even people who teach single classes are in departments with probably at least 3 people. Or maybe to help with having fewer teachers and kids stay after school, allow for no movement Mondays and Fridays to be used for test re-takes. Obviously 45 minutes might not be long enough to take a full test, but often tests are essay and MC and tests can be broken into sections. Use resources to create a testing center that operates throughout the day for retakes. Even using AI can help with test re-take creation. You can ask chat gpt to creat 45 questions on (insert specific subject- give as specific instructions as you can). Then copy and paste that into a doc and start revising it into 25 quality questions. The initial version generated won’t be perfect, but after the teacher looks through it, revised it, throws out the dud questions, it’s like having a test prep partner who won’t complain when you cut their favorite question! I sympathize with teacher workload but there are ways to work smarter without the whiplash of changing policy for kids mid year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are people indicating that kid a could “keep taking the test” until they get an A. The policy allowed for ONE retake of a given test. Not repeated retakes, as some posters here claim.

Don’t let facts get in the way of a good APS bashing.

There were multiple retakes allowed at one point. Or at least that's how it was interpreted/talked about early on.

At least that is the rumor you enjoyed pushing.

When standards based grading first started in middle school, there were multiple retakes allowed by some teachers. Since the official policy started, I’ve not seen this anywhere.

which middle school? which subject?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are people indicating that kid a could “keep taking the test” until they get an A. The policy allowed for ONE retake of a given test. Not repeated retakes, as some posters here claim.

Don’t let facts get in the way of a good APS bashing.

There were multiple retakes allowed at one point. Or at least that's how it was interpreted/talked about early on.

At least that is the rumor you enjoyed pushing.

When standards based grading first started in middle school, there were multiple retakes allowed by some teachers. Since the official policy started, I’ve not seen this anywhere.

which middle school? which subject?

I think this whole comment thread is a bit random: The original person commented about multiple re-takes. Someone asked for clarification- they responded that it was in middle school, then clarified further that it was a few years ago that multiple re-take were allowed but not recently. Multiple re-takes were never part of the county wide policy instituted in July 2023. The original commenter was just trying to suggest that they were correct at one time but they do acknowledge that has not been the case this year. I think this suggestion of multiple re-takes is feeding the anti re-take rhetoric.

[Anonymous]

1) The rampant grade inflation is bad for kids long term.

2) Pushing such a large % of kids into advanced math, starting with Alg I in 7th and Geometrt in 8th, is the wrong model for most. Part of the reason why there are so many JUNIOR parents on this thread complaining about the polity for their calculus students. They just shouldn’t be in calculus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I liked the policy. My senior failed 2 calculus tests initially, went over the mistakes with his teacher, studied again with a better knowledge, and got As. He wouldn't have mastered the content without the opportunity.

+1. This is the stated aim of the policy. Understand completely what the negatives are, and especially why it's unpopular with some teachers. It's the changing of it halfway through a school year that should not be allowed. There are kids, mine included, who made a decision to stay in a class instead of dropping it, partly because of this policy - in fact it was his teacher who pointed it out and encouraged him to stay. That decision impacts the entire school year. Fine if you want to change this - can definitely see pros and cons. But what other policy has APS ever approved in June for the following school year and then changed halfway through?

It's been our experience that the slower learning kids are taking up the vast majority of class time and office hours for teachers even in so-called intensified classes in ms/hs because of the terrible APS gifted/push-in policy. (As the principal of one hs program told me when I expressed my concern about the high variance of ability in gifted classes, "more than half our students are identified as gifted.")

Thus more difficult material is glanced over in class right before the test so kids cannot properly prepare for math/science tests. The retake afforded them the opportunity to know what they should have been taught so they could study properly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have middle schoolers, but don't kids have cumulative final exams? It's that enough of a reason for a kid who got a B on a test to go back and figure out what they did wrong and learn that material?

No, finals generally don't seem to be cumulative anymore.

They do at the high school level BUT many teachers and syllabi waive the final exam if a student maintains an A in class. Can you really blame a kid for re-taking to get an A when the teachers own syllabus incentivizes the A. Teachers set the standard and now they are upset with it??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I liked the policy. My senior failed 2 calculus tests initially, went over the mistakes with his teacher, studied again with a better knowledge, and got As. He wouldn't have mastered the content without the opportunity.

+1. This is the stated aim of the policy. Understand completely what the negatives are, and especially why it's unpopular with some teachers. It's the changing of it halfway through a school year that should not be allowed. There are kids, mine included, who made a decision to stay in a class instead of dropping it, partly because of this policy - in fact it was his teacher who pointed it out and encouraged him to stay. That decision impacts the entire school year. Fine if you want to change this - can definitely see pros and cons. But what other policy has APS ever approved in June for the following school year and then changed halfway through?

I agree. I feel like they just quickly gave up and gutted the policy. It wasn’t perfect but it was working to some extent. I feel like they should have implement some tweaks- required kids to prove they had handed in all assignments and completed a study guide BEFORE the first test to make sure
People were not completely gaming the system. Of course the first 5 months of the policy were going to be a ton of work for teachers- so cancel all faculty meetings or cancel some PD and let people have grading time. Acknowledge the intense effort by teachers while still honoring the policy that was truly benefiting a good portion of kids.

I also think this is a mental health issue. Kids used this policy more a safety net in theory than in practice. Now it has been removed and kids who thought they would have it all year do not. Aps says it’s for reduced stress and a focus on mental health with the no movement Mondays and Fridays. But in reality they are paying lip service to that while quickly giving up on a promise. I have had students in aps for 12 years and I can’t think of a policy that could negatively affect students academically being implemented mid year with one days notice? Correct me if I am wrong?

Also for anyone who says there are no re-takes and do overs in real life- Dr. Duran just gave himself a do over. Shouldn’t we let kids have the same privilege.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I liked the policy. My senior failed 2 calculus tests initially, went over the mistakes with his teacher, studied again with a better knowledge, and got As. He wouldn't have mastered the content without the opportunity.

+1. This is the stated aim of the policy. Understand completely what the negatives are, and especially why it's unpopular with some teachers. It's the changing of it halfway through a school year that should not be allowed. There are kids, mine included, who made a decision to stay in a class instead of dropping it, partly because of this policy - in fact it was his teacher who pointed it out and encouraged him to stay. That decision impacts the entire school year. Fine if you want to change this - can definitely see pros and cons. But what other policy has APS ever approved in June for the following school year and then changed halfway through?

So your issue with the mid-year change is that your kid might not be able to get an A in the class now?

DP here and I would assume yes, which is a completely legitimate reason for objecting to the change.

Don't entirely agree.

For objecting to the timing of the change, I mean.

Don't entirely agree, I mean.

They are implementing the new policy at the end of the second quarter. First and second semester grades are already done with the previous retake policy. Students know now, starting third quarter, that they may not be able to do retakes or multiple retakes. They may have to up their game and change their tactics or get the grades they would have gotten under normal circumstances before the ridiculous multiple retake free-for-all policy was implemented in the first place. Seems to me, they've been given a big advantage for half the year and now they get to see how they do without the bonus advantage.

Bring back formative grades.

+1 The original case for putting the strong weight on summative grades - consistent with standards based grading - was to reward the mastery of content no matter the path to get there. Having summative grades still carrying the disproportionate weight while also capping the opportunity for grade improvement with a retake disincentives mastery and will lead to a number of students giving up on actually trying to learn the material - even if it takes more time - because there’s no upside.

100%

My kid does the homework. If they get an 85%, they will consider retaking b/c they can make corrections, learn what went wrong and hopefully get it right on future assessments. Now, there is no incentive to make that up. Also, 80% is not sufficient to show aptitude.

Bring back cumulative final exams.

My kids go to a private prep school and they have midterm and final exams after classes end. Last Week just like colleges do. It was an adjustment first semester of Freshmen year—the idea of cumulative test 25% of grade. But- so great they are used to it now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I liked the policy. My senior failed 2 calculus tests initially, went over the mistakes with his teacher, studied again with a better knowledge, and got As. He wouldn't have mastered the content without the opportunity.

+1. This is the stated aim of the policy. Understand completely what the negatives are, and especially why it's unpopular with some teachers. It's the changing of it halfway through a school year that should not be allowed. There are kids, mine included, who made a decision to stay in a class instead of dropping it, partly because of this policy - in fact it was his teacher who pointed it out and encouraged him to stay. That decision impacts the entire school year. Fine if you want to change this - can definitely see pros and cons. But what other policy has APS ever approved in June for the following school year and then changed halfway through?

So your issue with the mid-year change is that your kid might not be able to get an A in the class now?

DP here and I would assume yes, which is a completely legitimate reason for objecting to the change.

Don't entirely agree.

For objecting to the timing of the change, I mean.

Don't entirely agree, I mean.

They are implementing the new policy at the end of the second quarter. First and second semester grades are already done with the previous retake policy. Students know now, starting third quarter, that they may not be able to do retakes or multiple retakes. They may have to up their game and change their tactics or get the grades they would have gotten under normal circumstances before the ridiculous multiple retake free-for-all policy was implemented in the first place. Seems to me, they've been given a big advantage for half the year and now they get to see how they do without the bonus advantage.

Bring back formative grades.

+1 The original case for putting the strong weight on summative grades - consistent with standards based grading - was to reward the mastery of content no matter the path to get there. Having summative grades still carrying the disproportionate weight while also capping the opportunity for grade improvement with a retake disincentives mastery and will lead to a number of students giving up on actually trying to learn the material - even if it takes more time - because there’s no upside.

100%

My kid does the homework. If they get an 85%, they will consider retaking b/c they can make corrections, learn what went wrong and hopefully get it right on future assessments. Now, there is no incentive to make that up. Also, 80% is not sufficient to show aptitude.

Bring back cumulative final exams.

My kids go to a private prep school and they have midterm and final exams after classes end. Last Week just like colleges do. It was an adjustment first semester of Freshmen year—the idea of cumulative test 25% of grade. But- so great they are used to it now.

Oh and there are no re-takes on these. Lol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I liked the policy. My senior failed 2 calculus tests initially, went over the mistakes with his teacher, studied again with a better knowledge, and got As. He wouldn't have mastered the content without the opportunity.

+1. This is the stated aim of the policy. Understand completely what the negatives are, and especially why it's unpopular with some teachers. It's the changing of it halfway through a school year that should not be allowed. There are kids, mine included, who made a decision to stay in a class instead of dropping it, partly because of this policy - in fact it was his teacher who pointed it out and encouraged him to stay. That decision impacts the entire school year. Fine if you want to change this - can definitely see pros and cons. But what other policy has APS ever approved in June for the following school year and then changed halfway through?

I agree. I feel like they just quickly gave up and gutted the policy. It wasn’t perfect but it was working to some extent. I feel like they should have implement some tweaks- required kids to prove they had handed in all assignments and completed a study guide BEFORE the first test to make sure
People were not completely gaming the system. Of course the first 5 months of the policy were going to be a ton of work for teachers- so cancel all faculty meetings or cancel some PD and let people have grading time. Acknowledge the intense effort by teachers while still honoring the policy that was truly benefiting a good portion of kids.

I also think this is a mental health issue. Kids used this policy more a safety net in theory than in practice. Now it has been removed and kids who thought they would have it all year do not. Aps says it’s for reduced stress and a focus on mental health with the no movement Mondays and Fridays. But in reality they are paying lip service to that while quickly giving up on a promise. I have had students in aps for 12 years and I can’t think of a policy that could negatively affect students academically being implemented mid year with one days notice? Correct me if I am wrong?

Also for anyone who says there are no re-takes and do overs in real life- Dr. Duran just gave himself a do over. Shouldn’t we let kids have the same privilege.

YES! This x 100!

My straight A student studies for each test, but sometimes they falter. Knowing there is a chance for a retake removes some of the stress. No teacher for my kid gives a repeat test or just lets them take them willy-nilly. Each teacher requires all assigmnents be turned in, remediation work turned in and the student signs up for a specific time (usually 1 or 2 times available and that's it). Mine took a retake right at the end for high grade because they might as well. They already had an A, but knowing the retake safety net was going away caused them to try to make the Q2 grade higher. If a kid learns from remediating, I don't see the problem. But, like said above, an 80 is not proficient.