Open Marriage with kids

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Having hobbies you share with friends is different from meeting your bang partner for a hook up and you know it.

Why? Someone who golfs for 8 hours every weekend is a better parent than someone who spends say 8 hours a month with their bang partner?

I don't think either of them is winning parenting awards.

When you have young kids, your focus should be those kids. Of course you can have friends and hobbies, but they can't be prioritized over your kids because your kids need you more. What you give them in childhood forms the foundation for their entire life. It's really important and worth missing out on some golf or only seeing your friends a couple nights a month so that you can be fully present. People also step back at work to be their for their kids. No one is saying that an open relationship is worse than being an absent parent in other ways.

But the logistics of an open relationship absolutely pose issues in terms of being very present for your kid. Especially in a situation like OP's where it sounds like the marriage has become transactional and they have ZERO interest in monogamy. OP and their spouse have decided they just can't sacrifice some of their own preferences for the sake of their kids. That sucks for the kids, no matter what it is they won't sacrifice.

Why not open your marriage before and after having young kids, if that matters to you? What the problem with just keeping things monogamous for maybe 10-15 years while you raise kids? The same way you might suck it up and live in the house with good schools instead of the city apartment near all the great nightlife, or take the job that is going to help you pay for college instead of following the passion project that doesn't pay as well. People sacrifice for their kids all the time. It's normal and actually good.

Having friends and hobbies in a substantial way is not being an "absent parent". Back when having kids was just a normal part of adult life and not some kind of special sacrifice, adults knew this. Now we have UMC parents who are way too involved with their kids and kids who need more space and more time with their peers and not their parents. Just think: you could have hobbies and friends, and then so could your kid.

Lots of parents have hobbies they share with their family/kids. It’s fun to spend time with your family/kids. Polyamorous people don’t think it’s fun or worthwhile to spend time with their children.

Parents have friends. People who are in a sexual relationship with a parent aren’t friends- they are a sex partner. Sex partners should be having what contact with kids? How much time do polyamorous people spend weekly/monthly with their sex partners?

Your post admits that you think kids get too much attention and parental involvement, and having sex outside your marriage is your “hobby” and your sexual partners your friends. You center your life around sex with these people. Your kids cannot and should not be a part of that. Polyamorous people don’t care about their kids. They are selfish and think sex with whatever sex partner is hanging above is the meaning of life.

Actually, my hobbies are my hobbies and my friends are my friends. I don't take my kids with me to the gym to work out, or to my professional/networking-related groups, either. I think there are reasons to not be comfortable with non-monogamy, but "you must sacrifice for your kids' entire childhood and not have a life outside of them" is the worst possible take on this. Bad for the parents, bad for the kids.

It’s dishonest to act like playing golf or going to brunch with your friends is not different *in kind* than leaving the home to have extramarital sex and emotional affairs. These are qualitatively different. Yes, some things are good and some things are bad. It’s not a crime to call a thing what it is. You absolutely must sacrifice bad things for your kids.

I mean, this whole debate started because someone defending ENM with kids compared it to a parent who goes golfing for 8 hours every Saturday, and I pointed out that they are BOTH BAD. It is bad parenting to always preference your own needs *when your needs and your child's needs are in conflict.* So if you have young kids but you really wish you could spend a full day golfing every weekend, I think you should compromise to meet your child's needs even if it means you don't spend as much time on your hobby as you hoped. Similarly, if you have young kids but you are tired of sex with your spouse and would love to have sex with other people, I think it's selfish to dedicate time an energy to secondary sexual relationships when you have young kids who need your time and attention.

Look, some people are goint to say ENM is immoral, and that's their opinion. I'm very much a live and let live person in this respect, and I think that as long as we're talking about fully consenting adults, people should arrange their relationships as they want. But the exception there is that if you have children, I think you need to prioritize their needs, full stop. And the easiest way to do that is to be monogamous. There are 24 hours in a day and 7 days in a week, and most of us have to work. There is not time for you to work, carry on secondary relationships with other people, plus maintain your marriage, plus be a present parent to young children. You can say you make it work but I don't believe you because if you are making it work by trading the kids off between parents or getting a lot of extra childcare weekends and evenings, your kids are missing out on a lot of valuable time with parents, and with the family unit.

Also, btw, if you have kids, a job, AND secondary sexual relationships, how much time do you have for friends and hobbies? A well rounded person should have some friends and hobbies. If you are already married, the most efficient thing is to get your sexual/romantic needs met there, so that you can use other time for work/kids/friends/hobbies. People doing ENM who also have kids are really straining the limits of space and time. I guess if you just have sex with your extra GF/BF while golfing, it might work? It honestly doesn't make much sense.

Just focus on your kids for a few years. Then you can go all in on golf or ENM or whatever when your kids are in HS or college. Your kids need you now and can't wait until later.

PP again. I wanted to note here that the couple I know who was most committed to ENM definitely tried to "make it work" for several years after having kids, and for a time they really thought they'd figured it out. Do you know how they solved the fundamental problem of there not being enough time for work, kids, and secondary relationships? They had those relationships with coworkers and childcare providers. I mean, they are right there, it's so convenient! I will let you figure out on your own how well this worked out in the long run for everyone.

Time is finite. Sorry if this is news to you.

You don't believe this. If you did you'd be spending time on your kids, spouse, or hobbies and not lecturing internet strangers.

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Having hobbies you share with friends is different from meeting your bang partner for a hook up and you know it.

Why? Someone who golfs for 8 hours every weekend is a better parent than someone who spends say 8 hours a month with their bang partner?

I don't think either of them is winning parenting awards.

When you have young kids, your focus should be those kids. Of course you can have friends and hobbies, but they can't be prioritized over your kids because your kids need you more. What you give them in childhood forms the foundation for their entire life. It's really important and worth missing out on some golf or only seeing your friends a couple nights a month so that you can be fully present. People also step back at work to be their for their kids. No one is saying that an open relationship is worse than being an absent parent in other ways.

But the logistics of an open relationship absolutely pose issues in terms of being very present for your kid. Especially in a situation like OP's where it sounds like the marriage has become transactional and they have ZERO interest in monogamy. OP and their spouse have decided they just can't sacrifice some of their own preferences for the sake of their kids. That sucks for the kids, no matter what it is they won't sacrifice.

Why not open your marriage before and after having young kids, if that matters to you? What the problem with just keeping things monogamous for maybe 10-15 years while you raise kids? The same way you might suck it up and live in the house with good schools instead of the city apartment near all the great nightlife, or take the job that is going to help you pay for college instead of following the passion project that doesn't pay as well. People sacrifice for their kids all the time. It's normal and actually good.

Having friends and hobbies in a substantial way is not being an "absent parent". Back when having kids was just a normal part of adult life and not some kind of special sacrifice, adults knew this. Now we have UMC parents who are way too involved with their kids and kids who need more space and more time with their peers and not their parents. Just think: you could have hobbies and friends, and then so could your kid.

Lots of parents have hobbies they share with their family/kids. It’s fun to spend time with your family/kids. Polyamorous people don’t think it’s fun or worthwhile to spend time with their children.

Parents have friends. People who are in a sexual relationship with a parent aren’t friends- they are a sex partner. Sex partners should be having what contact with kids? How much time do polyamorous people spend weekly/monthly with their sex partners?

Your post admits that you think kids get too much attention and parental involvement, and having sex outside your marriage is your “hobby” and your sexual partners your friends. You center your life around sex with these people. Your kids cannot and should not be a part of that. Polyamorous people don’t care about their kids. They are selfish and think sex with whatever sex partner is hanging above is the meaning of life.

Actually, my hobbies are my hobbies and my friends are my friends. I don't take my kids with me to the gym to work out, or to my professional/networking-related groups, either. I think there are reasons to not be comfortable with non-monogamy, but "you must sacrifice for your kids' entire childhood and not have a life outside of them" is the worst possible take on this. Bad for the parents, bad for the kids.

It’s dishonest to act like playing golf or going to brunch with your friends is not different *in kind* than leaving the home to have extramarital sex and emotional affairs. These are qualitatively different. Yes, some things are good and some things are bad. It’s not a crime to call a thing what it is. You absolutely must sacrifice bad things for your kids.

I mean, this whole debate started because someone defending ENM with kids compared it to a parent who goes golfing for 8 hours every Saturday, and I pointed out that they are BOTH BAD. It is bad parenting to always preference your own needs *when your needs and your child's needs are in conflict.* So if you have young kids but you really wish you could spend a full day golfing every weekend, I think you should compromise to meet your child's needs even if it means you don't spend as much time on your hobby as you hoped. Similarly, if you have young kids but you are tired of sex with your spouse and would love to have sex with other people, I think it's selfish to dedicate time an energy to secondary sexual relationships when you have young kids who need your time and attention.

Look, some people are goint to say ENM is immoral, and that's their opinion. I'm very much a live and let live person in this respect, and I think that as long as we're talking about fully consenting adults, people should arrange their relationships as they want. But the exception there is that if you have children, I think you need to prioritize their needs, full stop. And the easiest way to do that is to be monogamous. There are 24 hours in a day and 7 days in a week, and most of us have to work. There is not time for you to work, carry on secondary relationships with other people, plus maintain your marriage, plus be a present parent to young children. You can say you make it work but I don't believe you because if you are making it work by trading the kids off between parents or getting a lot of extra childcare weekends and evenings, your kids are missing out on a lot of valuable time with parents, and with the family unit.

Also, btw, if you have kids, a job, AND secondary sexual relationships, how much time do you have for friends and hobbies? A well rounded person should have some friends and hobbies. If you are already married, the most efficient thing is to get your sexual/romantic needs met there, so that you can use other time for work/kids/friends/hobbies. People doing ENM who also have kids are really straining the limits of space and time. I guess if you just have sex with your extra GF/BF while golfing, it might work? It honestly doesn't make much sense.

Just focus on your kids for a few years. Then you can go all in on golf or ENM or whatever when your kids are in HS or college. Your kids need you now and can't wait until later.

PP again. I wanted to note here that the couple I know who was most committed to ENM definitely tried to "make it work" for several years after having kids, and for a time they really thought they'd figured it out. Do you know how they solved the fundamental problem of there not being enough time for work, kids, and secondary relationships? They had those relationships with coworkers and childcare providers. I mean, they are right there, it's so convenient! I will let you figure out on your own how well this worked out in the long run for everyone.

Time is finite. Sorry if this is news to you.

You don't believe this. If you did you'd be spending time on your kids, spouse, or hobbies and not lecturing internet strangers.

Lol, you don't get to believe or disbelieve that time is finite. It just is. Hopefully everyone on here recognizes that the time they spend posting on DCUM is taking away from other things they could be doing.

Personally, I know a spend too much time posting on DCUM and would like to stop and spend that time with my kids, spouse, or on hobbies. But I'm addicted to it and struggling to quit. At least I can admit that, unlike someone who is like "It's normal and fine to take time away from my marriage and kids to bang my secondary relationship, actually it's healthy and my kids will appreciate it." Get real.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These threads have only reinforced the notion that ENM is anything but E and incredibly selfish and likely involving narcissism and mental illness

I don't know anyone engaged in ENM who didn't either decide it didn't work OR later get diagnosed with bipolar, BPD, or other major issues OR they were happy content but it caused massive problems for others (the narcissists who just want what they want and don't care how it impacts others).

When I see people advocating for ENM like it's the magical solution to everything, and especially when they start trying to argue that ENM is the more "evolved" way to approach marriage, I just roll my eyes. Someone should do a study on ENM communities to show long-term outcomes, both on marriages and on any children raised by actively ENM couples. As someone who knows many ENM couples, I feel confident any such study would show that ENM is bad for long term marital success rates and especially bad for families.

Well, marital success rates are pretty bad with or without ENM. What irritates me is people who act like ENM is some way to increase the stability of marriage (obviously not) or refuse to consider the issues with kids or uneven power differentials.

That said, I do know two couples that got together very young and seem to have done ENM successfully in their 20s as a way to keep both the relationship and ability to experiment. One couple closed the relationship when they had kids and that seemed to be successful - but one of the partners later transitioned so there was obviously a lot going on. Writing this makes them sound chaotic but truly they are some of the best people I’ve met. I don’t have great insight into their family but I believe they are giving their kids a great upbringing even if nontraditional.

The other couple kept the marriage open (even after kids) and are now crashing and burning spectacularly.

So you never can tell.

Hmm I know a couple who matches this description and I would describe one of them as a saint and the other one as a Huge Problem.

lmao spot on

Oh dear I think I might know the same couple 🫢

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These threads have only reinforced the notion that ENM is anything but E and incredibly selfish and likely involving narcissism and mental illness

I don't know anyone engaged in ENM who didn't either decide it didn't work OR later get diagnosed with bipolar, BPD, or other major issues OR they were happy content but it caused massive problems for others (the narcissists who just want what they want and don't care how it impacts others).

When I see people advocating for ENM like it's the magical solution to everything, and especially when they start trying to argue that ENM is the more "evolved" way to approach marriage, I just roll my eyes. Someone should do a study on ENM communities to show long-term outcomes, both on marriages and on any children raised by actively ENM couples. As someone who knows many ENM couples, I feel confident any such study would show that ENM is bad for long term marital success rates and especially bad for families.

Well, marital success rates are pretty bad with or without ENM. What irritates me is people who act like ENM is some way to increase the stability of marriage (obviously not) or refuse to consider the issues with kids or uneven power differentials.

That said, I do know two couples that got together very young and seem to have done ENM successfully in their 20s as a way to keep both the relationship and ability to experiment. One couple closed the relationship when they had kids and that seemed to be successful - but one of the partners later transitioned so there was obviously a lot going on. Writing this makes them sound chaotic but truly they are some of the best people I’ve met. I don’t have great insight into their family but I believe they are giving their kids a great upbringing even if nontraditional.

The other couple kept the marriage open (even after kids) and are now crashing and burning spectacularly.

So you never can tell.

Hmm I know a couple who matches this description and I would describe one of them as a saint and the other one as a Huge Problem.

Of course it’s possible but I haven’t seen/heard about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These threads have only reinforced the notion that ENM is anything but E and incredibly selfish and likely involving narcissism and mental illness

I don't know anyone engaged in ENM who didn't either decide it didn't work OR later get diagnosed with bipolar, BPD, or other major issues OR they were happy content but it caused massive problems for others (the narcissists who just want what they want and don't care how it impacts others).

When I see people advocating for ENM like it's the magical solution to everything, and especially when they start trying to argue that ENM is the more "evolved" way to approach marriage, I just roll my eyes. Someone should do a study on ENM communities to show long-term outcomes, both on marriages and on any children raised by actively ENM couples. As someone who knows many ENM couples, I feel confident any such study would show that ENM is bad for long term marital success rates and especially bad for families.

Well, marital success rates are pretty bad with or without ENM. What irritates me is people who act like ENM is some way to increase the stability of marriage (obviously not) or refuse to consider the issues with kids or uneven power differentials.

That said, I do know two couples that got together very young and seem to have done ENM successfully in their 20s as a way to keep both the relationship and ability to experiment. One couple closed the relationship when they had kids and that seemed to be successful - but one of the partners later transitioned so there was obviously a lot going on. Writing this makes them sound chaotic but truly they are some of the best people I’ve met. I don’t have great insight into their family but I believe they are giving their kids a great upbringing even if nontraditional.

The other couple kept the marriage open (even after kids) and are now crashing and burning spectacularly.

So you never can tell.

So one family spectacularly exploded

and one family (which you don’t have insight into) also spectacularly exploded

I think we can tell.

One spectacularlt exploded - the ENM is making it worse, but would have failed anyway

The other is going strong

[Anonymous]

My late MIL (who I really liked as a person in the DIL/MIL capacity) divorced my FIL 15 years before I met her because she didn't want to be monogamy, polyamorous and wanted an open marriage/polyamory (and FIL did not). The entire time I knew her she was in multiple relationships that seemed really weird to me but she wasn't my mother and for the longest time my DH was in denial as to what she was doing.

My SIL however was traumatized by it, and the full effects from it really weren't apparent until about 10 years ago when she had a severe mental break and was committed. When my inlaws divorced my SIL lived with her mother (my MIL) who apparently brought home multiple partners (whether at their residence or even on vacations), exposed her in sound (and sight) to her sexual encounters (so she heard and saw things), would have histrionic episodes on what love means, how she needs to live her life according to her own terms, needs to be free, etc. My DH, who is much older than my SIL, was pretty much out of the home at this point and at college, so while he knew his mom had lots of boyfriends/girlfriends he didn't know to what extent.

SIL became a cutter, anorexic, severely depressed. Being exposed to hyper sexuality is a trauma. My MIL calmed down a bit by the time I met her, and as soon as my SIL could leave the house she did and never looked back. When MIL died all these anxieties and stories from SIL came out. She's had electric shock therapy, all (and I mean ALL) the SSRIs, talk therapy, even spent months at Sheppard Pratt $$$. She's still very messed up.

You don't need to expose your kids to your sexual escapades, whether you are polyamorous or monogamous. If you feel this burning desire, that's on you. Your children aren't here to satiate your attention needs. Please, leave them out of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These threads have only reinforced the notion that ENM is anything but E and incredibly selfish and likely involving narcissism and mental illness

I don't know anyone engaged in ENM who didn't either decide it didn't work OR later get diagnosed with bipolar, BPD, or other major issues OR they were happy content but it caused massive problems for others (the narcissists who just want what they want and don't care how it impacts others).

When I see people advocating for ENM like it's the magical solution to everything, and especially when they start trying to argue that ENM is the more "evolved" way to approach marriage, I just roll my eyes. Someone should do a study on ENM communities to show long-term outcomes, both on marriages and on any children raised by actively ENM couples. As someone who knows many ENM couples, I feel confident any such study would show that ENM is bad for long term marital success rates and especially bad for families.

Well, marital success rates are pretty bad with or without ENM. What irritates me is people who act like ENM is some way to increase the stability of marriage (obviously not) or refuse to consider the issues with kids or uneven power differentials.

That said, I do know two couples that got together very young and seem to have done ENM successfully in their 20s as a way to keep both the relationship and ability to experiment. One couple closed the relationship when they had kids and that seemed to be successful - but one of the partners later transitioned so there was obviously a lot going on. Writing this makes them sound chaotic but truly they are some of the best people I’ve met. I don’t have great insight into their family but I believe they are giving their kids a great upbringing even if nontraditional.

The other couple kept the marriage open (even after kids) and are now crashing and burning spectacularly.

So you never can tell.

So one family spectacularly exploded

and one family (which you don’t have insight into) also spectacularly exploded

I think we can tell.

One spectacularlt exploded - the ENM is making it worse, but would have failed anyway

The other is going strong

The other “going strong”? You described a couple who is (1) no longer ENM, and (2) in which one partner has transitioned.

Just spit-balling here, but do you think there’s any chance that the choice to do ENM, and the fact that one partner ultimately decided that they needed to transition to the other gender, might be related? This is not an issue that is common to a lot of marriages, and will likely become even less so as trans awareness improves and people transition earlier in life before settling into marriages that might be unlikely to meet their needs.

So based on your observations, ENM is either a weigh station on the way to divorce, or possibly a symptom of much larger gender/sexuality issues that go well beyond the constraints of monogamy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My late MIL (who I really liked as a person in the DIL/MIL capacity) divorced my FIL 15 years before I met her because she didn't want to be monogamy, polyamorous and wanted an open marriage/polyamory (and FIL did not). The entire time I knew her she was in multiple relationships that seemed really weird to me but she wasn't my mother and for the longest time my DH was in denial as to what she was doing.

My SIL however was traumatized by it, and the full effects from it really weren't apparent until about 10 years ago when she had a severe mental break and was committed. When my inlaws divorced my SIL lived with her mother (my MIL) who apparently brought home multiple partners (whether at their residence or even on vacations), exposed her in sound (and sight) to her sexual encounters (so she heard and saw things), would have histrionic episodes on what love means, how she needs to live her life according to her own terms, needs to be free, etc. My DH, who is much older than my SIL, was pretty much out of the home at this point and at college, so while he knew his mom had lots of boyfriends/girlfriends he didn't know to what extent.

SIL became a cutter, anorexic, severely depressed. Being exposed to hyper sexuality is a trauma. My MIL calmed down a bit by the time I met her, and as soon as my SIL could leave the house she did and never looked back. When MIL died all these anxieties and stories from SIL came out. She's had electric shock therapy, all (and I mean ALL) the SSRIs, talk therapy, even spent months at Sheppard Pratt $$$. She's still very messed up.

You don't need to expose your kids to your sexual escapades, whether you are polyamorous or monogamous. If you feel this burning desire, that's on you. Your children aren't here to satiate your attention needs. Please, leave them out of it.

Unfortunately I think personality disorders are often co-concurrent with people who pursue open marriages or who lack the emotional maturity to parent well. So those kids have to deal with not only the disruption of open marriage, but often the trauma of a parent who is abusive or neglectful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These threads have only reinforced the notion that ENM is anything but E and incredibly selfish and likely involving narcissism and mental illness

I don't know anyone engaged in ENM who didn't either decide it didn't work OR later get diagnosed with bipolar, BPD, or other major issues OR they were happy content but it caused massive problems for others (the narcissists who just want what they want and don't care how it impacts others).

When I see people advocating for ENM like it's the magical solution to everything, and especially when they start trying to argue that ENM is the more "evolved" way to approach marriage, I just roll my eyes. Someone should do a study on ENM communities to show long-term outcomes, both on marriages and on any children raised by actively ENM couples. As someone who knows many ENM couples, I feel confident any such study would show that ENM is bad for long term marital success rates and especially bad for families.

Well, marital success rates are pretty bad with or without ENM. What irritates me is people who act like ENM is some way to increase the stability of marriage (obviously not) or refuse to consider the issues with kids or uneven power differentials.

That said, I do know two couples that got together very young and seem to have done ENM successfully in their 20s as a way to keep both the relationship and ability to experiment. One couple closed the relationship when they had kids and that seemed to be successful - but one of the partners later transitioned so there was obviously a lot going on. Writing this makes them sound chaotic but truly they are some of the best people I’ve met. I don’t have great insight into their family but I believe they are giving their kids a great upbringing even if nontraditional.

The other couple kept the marriage open (even after kids) and are now crashing and burning spectacularly.

So you never can tell.

So one family spectacularly exploded

and one family (which you don’t have insight into) also spectacularly exploded

I think we can tell.

One spectacularlt exploded - the ENM is making it worse, but would have failed anyway

The other is going strong

The other “going strong”? You described a couple who is (1) no longer ENM, and (2) in which one partner has transitioned.

Just spit-balling here, but do you think there’s any chance that the choice to do ENM, and the fact that one partner ultimately decided that they needed to transition to the other gender, might be related? This is not an issue that is common to a lot of marriages, and will likely become even less so as trans awareness improves and people transition earlier in life before settling into marriages that might be unlikely to meet their needs.

So based on your observations, ENM is either a weigh station on the way to divorce, or possibly a symptom of much larger gender/sexuality issues that go well beyond the constraints of monogamy.

Ding ding, this is my observation as well. It's a short-term solution for much deeper problems.

There's probably a tiny percentage of marriages where true ENM makes sense and both partners are happy with it and they live "happily ever after" with their primaries and their secondaries and their kids learn about it and it's fine. But I think you'd need the stars to align in a bunch of different ways. I think a lot of people overestimate the degree to which being bored with sex with your partner, or wanting more variety or to experiment more, is the CORE issue in a marriage. I think it happens, but usually the core issue is stuff like lack of respect, having different long-term goals, lack of emotional connection or support, etc. Sex is an important but relatively discrete and uncomplicated aspect of intimacy and long-term relationships. Most marital discord is way more complicated than sex, and introducing ENM has the potential to make those other complications much worse even if it makes the sex piece a bit better (which it also might not!).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These threads have only reinforced the notion that ENM is anything but E and incredibly selfish and likely involving narcissism and mental illness

I don't know anyone engaged in ENM who didn't either decide it didn't work OR later get diagnosed with bipolar, BPD, or other major issues OR they were happy content but it caused massive problems for others (the narcissists who just want what they want and don't care how it impacts others).

When I see people advocating for ENM like it's the magical solution to everything, and especially when they start trying to argue that ENM is the more "evolved" way to approach marriage, I just roll my eyes. Someone should do a study on ENM communities to show long-term outcomes, both on marriages and on any children raised by actively ENM couples. As someone who knows many ENM couples, I feel confident any such study would show that ENM is bad for long term marital success rates and especially bad for families.

Well, marital success rates are pretty bad with or without ENM. What irritates me is people who act like ENM is some way to increase the stability of marriage (obviously not) or refuse to consider the issues with kids or uneven power differentials.

That said, I do know two couples that got together very young and seem to have done ENM successfully in their 20s as a way to keep both the relationship and ability to experiment. One couple closed the relationship when they had kids and that seemed to be successful - but one of the partners later transitioned so there was obviously a lot going on. Writing this makes them sound chaotic but truly they are some of the best people I’ve met. I don’t have great insight into their family but I believe they are giving their kids a great upbringing even if nontraditional.

The other couple kept the marriage open (even after kids) and are now crashing and burning spectacularly.

So you never can tell.

So one family spectacularly exploded

and one family (which you don’t have insight into) also spectacularly exploded

I think we can tell.

One spectacularlt exploded - the ENM is making it worse, but would have failed anyway

The other is going strong

The other “going strong”? You described a couple who is (1) no longer ENM, and (2) in which one partner has transitioned.

Just spit-balling here, but do you think there’s any chance that the choice to do ENM, and the fact that one partner ultimately decided that they needed to transition to the other gender, might be related? This is not an issue that is common to a lot of marriages, and will likely become even less so as trans awareness improves and people transition earlier in life before settling into marriages that might be unlikely to meet their needs.

So based on your observations, ENM is either a weigh station on the way to divorce, or possibly a symptom of much larger gender/sexuality issues that go well beyond the constraints of monogamy.

Ding ding, this is my observation as well. It's a short-term solution for much deeper problems.

There's probably a tiny percentage of marriages where true ENM makes sense and both partners are happy with it and they live "happily ever after" with their primaries and their secondaries and their kids learn about it and it's fine. But I think you'd need the stars to align in a bunch of different ways. I think a lot of people overestimate the degree to which being bored with sex with your partner, or wanting more variety or to experiment more, is the CORE issue in a marriage. I think it happens, but usually the core issue is stuff like lack of respect, having different long-term goals, lack of emotional connection or support, etc. Sex is an important but relatively discrete and uncomplicated aspect of intimacy and long-term relationships. Most marital discord is way more complicated than sex, and introducing ENM has the potential to make those other complications much worse even if it makes the sex piece a bit better (which it also might not!).

Really? I think they underestimate it. Given that about half of marriages experience infidelity (and just think about the number of relationships that experience it without marriage) also means that non-monogamy is already the norm, whether or not it’s “normalized”.

The PP with the story about her MIL adds nothing here because that story isn’t about polyamory, it’s about an abusive and ill mother. FWIW, I’m happily monogamous in my marriage (this far) but I’m not trying to pretend this is a normal or idea state for most people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Seems this discussion went off the rails a little. For more context….I believe family is incredibly important and would like to keep my as in-tact as possible. However for a variety of reasons monogamy cannot be maintained in marriage. This is the case for a lot of married people they just choose to ignore it, or divorce over infidelity. I want to avoid that.

I am not talking about mentioning sex details to kids. I’m curious to learn from others who have engaged in extramarital relationships (I see this as beyond sex, but likely including sex) have navigated this with kids.

One of the things I’ve never understood is why we as a culture pretend like all of this doesn’t exist. A large portion of couples who’ve made it to 50 years of marriage did not make it there solely practicing monogamy. I’m looking for examples of how to handle this more honestly perhaps. It can also provide a realistic roadmap for kids. My kids are not little btw.

Why can’t you maintain monogamy in a marriage? It is a choice. Choose to be monogamous or choose to leave the marriage.

I have no problem being monogamous in my marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Seems this discussion went off the rails a little. For more context….I believe family is incredibly important and would like to keep my as in-tact as possible. However for a variety of reasons monogamy cannot be maintained in marriage. This is the case for a lot of married people they just choose to ignore it, or divorce over infidelity. I want to avoid that.

I am not talking about mentioning sex details to kids. I’m curious to learn from others who have engaged in extramarital relationships (I see this as beyond sex, but likely including sex) have navigated this with kids.

One of the things I’ve never understood is why we as a culture pretend like all of this doesn’t exist. A large portion of couples who’ve made it to 50 years of marriage did not make it there solely practicing monogamy. I’m looking for examples of how to handle this more honestly perhaps. It can also provide a realistic roadmap for kids. My kids are not little btw.

Why can’t you maintain monogamy in a marriage? It is a choice. Choose to be monogamous or choose to leave the marriage.

I have no problem being monogamous in my marriage.

+1

Vast, sweeping statements like OP's "Monogamy cannot be maintained in marriage" are meaningless. Based on nothing but an attempt to justify their own choice as not an individual choice but a Universal Truth For Everyone. If I said, "ENM cannot be maintained as a lifestyle," the ENM proselytes like OP would scream at how wrong and generalized that is, but they're willing to make their own generalizations and stick by them. Monogamy is a choice just as cheating is a choice and ENM is a choice and a single life is a choice. Some of us choose monogamy in marriage and make it work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These threads have only reinforced the notion that ENM is anything but E and incredibly selfish and likely involving narcissism and mental illness

I don't know anyone engaged in ENM who didn't either decide it didn't work OR later get diagnosed with bipolar, BPD, or other major issues OR they were happy content but it caused massive problems for others (the narcissists who just want what they want and don't care how it impacts others).

When I see people advocating for ENM like it's the magical solution to everything, and especially when they start trying to argue that ENM is the more "evolved" way to approach marriage, I just roll my eyes. Someone should do a study on ENM communities to show long-term outcomes, both on marriages and on any children raised by actively ENM couples. As someone who knows many ENM couples, I feel confident any such study would show that ENM is bad for long term marital success rates and especially bad for families.

Well, marital success rates are pretty bad with or without ENM. What irritates me is people who act like ENM is some way to increase the stability of marriage (obviously not) or refuse to consider the issues with kids or uneven power differentials.

That said, I do know two couples that got together very young and seem to have done ENM successfully in their 20s as a way to keep both the relationship and ability to experiment. One couple closed the relationship when they had kids and that seemed to be successful - but one of the partners later transitioned so there was obviously a lot going on. Writing this makes them sound chaotic but truly they are some of the best people I’ve met. I don’t have great insight into their family but I believe they are giving their kids a great upbringing even if nontraditional.

The other couple kept the marriage open (even after kids) and are now crashing and burning spectacularly.

So you never can tell.

So one family spectacularly exploded

and one family (which you don’t have insight into) also spectacularly exploded

I think we can tell.

One spectacularlt exploded - the ENM is making it worse, but would have failed anyway

The other is going strong

The other “going strong”? You described a couple who is (1) no longer ENM, and (2) in which one partner has transitioned.

Just spit-balling here, but do you think there’s any chance that the choice to do ENM, and the fact that one partner ultimately decided that they needed to transition to the other gender, might be related? This is not an issue that is common to a lot of marriages, and will likely become even less so as trans awareness improves and people transition earlier in life before settling into marriages that might be unlikely to meet their needs.

So based on your observations, ENM is either a weigh station on the way to divorce, or possibly a symptom of much larger gender/sexuality issues that go well beyond the constraints of monogamy.

I’m not willing to judge all cases, no. Monogamous couples certainly don’t behave well either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you’re in an open marriage, do your kids know?

Gross.

The only people I have ever known that have had a so-called open marriage were weirdos. If you are such a person, maybe just don't have kids. Because life isn't always about you when you have kids.