swimming up someone nvsl

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So on our team we have a number of good 9-10s, really good. The bench is deep with them that they will seed a few up and still retain the points in the 9-10 bench.

We seed two of our 9-10s up in 13-14 on a regular basis to grab points. We have found that other teams often don't look at how we seed our swimmers and just go by the ladder. Often surprised about our young super fast swimmers.

If you have zero available 13-14 yos with times, like literally you have gone down the entire ladder and no one that age is free, then thats fine.
Otherwise, its trashy.

I don't think it's trashy; however, it should be frowned on. It's the golden child syndrome/playing favorite.

We are talking straight time though.

Other sports can have subjectivity to them, but running and swim are just times. You swim or run a distance in a certain time. It is there for everyone to see.

I was always under the impression that summer swim was a dual beast. A meets are competitive meets and the best are chosen. B meets are the rec part of the team and for everyone to improve. It sounds like many on here would like to treat A meets like a rec sport and not really competitive. Kind of interesting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I’m at a d2 pool that does this and I guarantee the majority of the team doesn’t like this. Would love an open vote. Of course some do. But no one has ever asked me about it. And my kid doesn’t lose a spot. But I see how it affects those that do

Almost every d2 pool has done it this year. It's not unusual at all for the higher divisions.

Keep in mind that for every older slower kid that doesn't get to swim in an A meet, a younger faster kid does. I wouldn't want to be the one to explain to the faster younger kid and her parents that she doesn't get to swim because a slower swimmer's mommy complained.

Uh, the faster kid can swim in their OWN age group. It's why we have age groups.

Not if the others in the kid’s age group are faster. It’s entirely possible that the kid isn’t the fastest in their own age group but is faster than the third available swimmer in the next age group up, especially if the next age group has fewer swimmers. Our team has done swim ups in that situation and our team is always in a division in the teens.

Then why have age group designations at all?

Do you really not understand this? In general, age group designations make competition fair to younger kids- in the same way that gender groups in general make competition fair to females. It is the less common situation that a kid in a younger age group can beat kids in older age groups.
To explain the point the top 3 9-10 year old freestylers are in the meet. The top 2 11-12 freestylers are in the meet. The 4th 9-10 year old freestyler is faster than the 3 11-12 freestyler. The 4th 9-10 is only swimming if she gets the 11-12 spot. It is completely fair to swim her up to that spot. There is nothing tricky or nefarious about it.

Not a question of tricky or nefarious. No one is saying that. Irrespective of whether the rules permit swimming up, the third-fastest 11-12 should be swimming in the 11-12 race. He/she has earned that chance by being in the top three in his/her age group. Swimming up a faster 9-10 is a great way to get that 11-12 kid to quit the team.

Or swim faster?

There is no "I" in team. Why do summer swimmer think that they are entitled to a spot just because. You don't see other sports boards saying silly things like that. They play up kids all the time and no one bats an eye.

In a few years these types will be complaining that their high school senior didn't make the high school team because the coach picked a freshman or sophomore who is objectivity more talented. They are insufferable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I’m at a d2 pool that does this and I guarantee the majority of the team doesn’t like this. Would love an open vote. Of course some do. But no one has ever asked me about it. And my kid doesn’t lose a spot. But I see how it affects those that do

Almost every d2 pool has done it this year. It's not unusual at all for the higher divisions.

Keep in mind that for every older slower kid that doesn't get to swim in an A meet, a younger faster kid does. I wouldn't want to be the one to explain to the faster younger kid and her parents that she doesn't get to swim because a slower swimmer's mommy complained.

Uh, the faster kid can swim in their OWN age group. It's why we have age groups.

Not if the others in the kid’s age group are faster. It’s entirely possible that the kid isn’t the fastest in their own age group but is faster than the third available swimmer in the next age group up, especially if the next age group has fewer swimmers. Our team has done swim ups in that situation and our team is always in a division in the teens.

Then why have age group designations at all?

Do you really not understand this? In general, age group designations make competition fair to younger kids- in the same way that gender groups in general make competition fair to females. It is the less common situation that a kid in a younger age group can beat kids in older age groups.
To explain the point the top 3 9-10 year old freestylers are in the meet. The top 2 11-12 freestylers are in the meet. The 4th 9-10 year old freestyler is faster than the 3 11-12 freestyler. The 4th 9-10 is only swimming if she gets the 11-12 spot. It is completely fair to swim her up to that spot. There is nothing tricky or nefarious about it.

Not a question of tricky or nefarious. No one is saying that. Irrespective of whether the rules permit swimming up, the third-fastest 11-12 should be swimming in the 11-12 race. He/she has earned that chance by being in the top three in his/her age group. Swimming up a faster 9-10 is a great way to get that 11-12 kid to quit the team.

Or swim faster?

There is no "I" in team. Why do summer swimmer think that they are entitled to a spot just because. You don't see other sports boards saying silly things like that. They play up kids all the time and no one bats an eye.

In a few years these types will be complaining that their high school senior didn't make the high school team because the coach picked a freshman or sophomore who is objectivity more talented. They are insufferable.

Yes! Freshmen and sophomores should be on the JV team where they belong!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

We are talking straight time though.

Other sports can have subjectivity to them, but running and swim are just times. You swim or run a distance in a certain time. It is there for everyone to see.

I was always under the impression that summer swim was a dual beast. A meets are competitive meets and the best are chosen. B meets are the rec part of the team and for everyone to improve. It sounds like many on here would like to treat A meets like a rec sport and not really competitive. Kind of interesting.

Exactly. These people want their kid to swim in the A meet because A meets are more fun than B meets. A meets are more fun than B meets because they are competitive. But they don't want their kid to compete for a spot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So on our team we have a number of good 9-10s, really good. The bench is deep with them that they will seed a few up and still retain the points in the 9-10 bench.

We seed two of our 9-10s up in 13-14 on a regular basis to grab points. We have found that other teams often don't look at how we seed our swimmers and just go by the ladder. Often surprised about our young super fast swimmers.

If you have zero available 13-14 yos with times, like literally you have gone down the entire ladder and no one that age is free, then thats fine.
Otherwise, its trashy.

It’s strategic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We are talking straight time though.

Other sports can have subjectivity to them, but running and swim are just times. You swim or run a distance in a certain time. It is there for everyone to see.

I was always under the impression that summer swim was a dual beast. A meets are competitive meets and the best are chosen. B meets are the rec part of the team and for everyone to improve. It sounds like many on here would like to treat A meets like a rec sport and not really competitive. Kind of interesting.

Exactly. These people want their kid to swim in the A meet because A meets are more fun than B meets. A meets are more fun than B meets because they are competitive. But they don't want their kid to compete for a spot.

I'm the OP here, my kid still swims full events with swim ups. But I see how it affects the kids that lose their spot to a younger kid who is slightly faster, and that kid would still swim in their age group.

The bumped kid is bummed, embarrassed, because they expected to be at the A meet. Surprised when the meet sheet comes out and they are swimming less. They start not liking swim. They start to feel "less than". I didn't think this is what summer swim is about, even A meets. I'm not asking for empty lanes, or letting someone just swim. But I didn't know our team needs to be this cut throat. We blew out the team we swam this weekend. Would have won anyway without the swim ups. Was it worth it? Even if we had lost with our original line up, are we like an AAU basketball team or what?

AND I REPEAT, MY KID WOULD HAVE SWAM EITHER WAY, THEY'RE "FAST ENOUGH"

But I hear how it affects the kids and their parents. Maybe that is why people quit, or don't want to volunteer

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We are talking straight time though.

Other sports can have subjectivity to them, but running and swim are just times. You swim or run a distance in a certain time. It is there for everyone to see.

I was always under the impression that summer swim was a dual beast. A meets are competitive meets and the best are chosen. B meets are the rec part of the team and for everyone to improve. It sounds like many on here would like to treat A meets like a rec sport and not really competitive. Kind of interesting.

Exactly. These people want their kid to swim in the A meet because A meets are more fun than B meets. A meets are more fun than B meets because they are competitive. But they don't want their kid to compete for a spot.

I'm the OP here, my kid still swims full events with swim ups. But I see how it affects the kids that lose their spot to a younger kid who is slightly faster, and that kid would still swim in their age group.

The bumped kid is bummed, embarrassed, because they expected to be at the A meet. Surprised when the meet sheet comes out and they are swimming less. They start not liking swim. They start to feel "less than". I didn't think this is what summer swim is about, even A meets. I'm not asking for empty lanes, or letting someone just swim. But I didn't know our team needs to be this cut throat. We blew out the team we swam this weekend. Would have won anyway without the swim ups. Was it worth it? Even if we had lost with our original line up, are we like an AAU basketball team or what?

AND I REPEAT, MY KID WOULD HAVE SWAM EITHER WAY, THEY'RE "FAST ENOUGH"

But I hear how it affects the kids and their parents. Maybe that is why people quit, or don't want to volunteer

These are all disappointments kids, and parents, have to learn to deal with in sports and in life. Kids not swimming their favored events is another one. I suspect a lot of this would go away if teams did a better job of communicating the rationale behind the curtain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We are talking straight time though.

Other sports can have subjectivity to them, but running and swim are just times. You swim or run a distance in a certain time. It is there for everyone to see.

I was always under the impression that summer swim was a dual beast. A meets are competitive meets and the best are chosen. B meets are the rec part of the team and for everyone to improve. It sounds like many on here would like to treat A meets like a rec sport and not really competitive. Kind of interesting.

Exactly. These people want their kid to swim in the A meet because A meets are more fun than B meets. A meets are more fun than B meets because they are competitive. But they don't want their kid to compete for a spot.

I'm the OP here, my kid still swims full events with swim ups. But I see how it affects the kids that lose their spot to a younger kid who is slightly faster, and that kid would still swim in their age group.

The bumped kid is bummed, embarrassed, because they expected to be at the A meet. Surprised when the meet sheet comes out and they are swimming less. They start not liking swim. They start to feel "less than". I didn't think this is what summer swim is about, even A meets. I'm not asking for empty lanes, or letting someone just swim. But I didn't know our team needs to be this cut throat. We blew out the team we swam this weekend. Would have won anyway without the swim ups. Was it worth it? Even if we had lost with our original line up, are we like an AAU basketball team or what?

AND I REPEAT, MY KID WOULD HAVE SWAM EITHER WAY, THEY'RE "FAST ENOUGH"

But I hear how it affects the kids and their parents. Maybe that is why people quit, or don't want to volunteer

These are all disappointments kids, and parents, have to learn to deal with in sports and in life. Kids not swimming their favored events is another one. I suspect a lot of this would go away if teams did a better job of communicating the rationale behind the curtain.

When the rationale is the coach coaches winter club and the only way they could squeeze them in was to shift around strokes a year up so that the kids who are faster end up swimming other strokes to create a spot so the parents don't question what they are paying for, then maybe it's best not to be open.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We are talking straight time though.

Other sports can have subjectivity to them, but running and swim are just times. You swim or run a distance in a certain time. It is there for everyone to see.

I was always under the impression that summer swim was a dual beast. A meets are competitive meets and the best are chosen. B meets are the rec part of the team and for everyone to improve. It sounds like many on here would like to treat A meets like a rec sport and not really competitive. Kind of interesting.

Exactly. These people want their kid to swim in the A meet because A meets are more fun than B meets. A meets are more fun than B meets because they are competitive. But they don't want their kid to compete for a spot.

I'm the OP here, my kid still swims full events with swim ups. But I see how it affects the kids that lose their spot to a younger kid who is slightly faster, and that kid would still swim in their age group.

The bumped kid is bummed, embarrassed, because they expected to be at the A meet. Surprised when the meet sheet comes out and they are swimming less. They start not liking swim. They start to feel "less than". I didn't think this is what summer swim is about, even A meets. I'm not asking for empty lanes, or letting someone just swim. But I didn't know our team needs to be this cut throat. We blew out the team we swam this weekend. Would have won anyway without the swim ups. Was it worth it? Even if we had lost with our original line up, are we like an AAU basketball team or what?

AND I REPEAT, MY KID WOULD HAVE SWAM EITHER WAY, THEY'RE "FAST ENOUGH"

But I hear how it affects the kids and their parents. Maybe that is why people quit, or don't want to volunteer

These are all disappointments kids, and parents, have to learn to deal with in sports and in life. Kids not swimming their favored events is another one. I suspect a lot of this would go away if teams did a better job of communicating the rationale behind the curtain.

When the rationale is the coach coaches winter club and the only way they could squeeze them in was to shift around strokes a year up so that the kids who are faster end up swimming other strokes to create a spot so the parents don't question what they are paying for, then maybe it's best not to be open.

Sounds like your team has a lot going on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are at a mid-division NVSL pool and our team never swims up unless there would be an empty lane. Summer swim is competitive, but it’s not about parsing the rules for every possible advantage.

It's not parsing the rules. It's explicitly allowed in the rules. See 2. POOL AND COMPETITOR ELIGIBILITY, Article IV (c)

You are parsing the rules. Here’s how our team looks at it — the age group is 11-12. All three lanes should be filled by kids who are 11-12. If we don’t have enough 11-12s that week, a 9-10 or 8&u will swim up. But they would never displace an eligible 11-12 irrespective of times.

Do the rules allow us to use someone younger? Of course. But we don’t do it. We would rather have a slower 11-12 have the experience of swimming an A meet. If that’s the difference between losing and winning, who cares. For us, summer swim is not about win at all costs. It’s about fun competition.

If you think otherwise, that’s fine. We are quite happy with our approach. As are our kids.

I've noticed that in the 11-12 age group this year, coaches are substituting swimmers who didn’t make the roster for 9-10. These swimmers are now competing as the sixth seed in 11-12. What about the other eligible athletes in the 11-12 category?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are at a mid-division NVSL pool and our team never swims up unless there would be an empty lane. Summer swim is competitive, but it’s not about parsing the rules for every possible advantage.

It's not parsing the rules. It's explicitly allowed in the rules. See 2. POOL AND COMPETITOR ELIGIBILITY, Article IV (c)

You are parsing the rules. Here’s how our team looks at it — the age group is 11-12. All three lanes should be filled by kids who are 11-12. If we don’t have enough 11-12s that week, a 9-10 or 8&u will swim up. But they would never displace an eligible 11-12 irrespective of times.

Do the rules allow us to use someone younger? Of course. But we don’t do it. We would rather have a slower 11-12 have the experience of swimming an A meet. If that’s the difference between losing and winning, who cares. For us, summer swim is not about win at all costs. It’s about fun competition.

If you think otherwise, that’s fine. We are quite happy with our approach. As are our kids.

I've noticed that in the 11-12 age group this year, coaches are substituting swimmers who didn’t make the roster for 9-10. These swimmers are now competing as the sixth seed in 11-12. What about the other eligible athletes in the 11-12 category?

I think that’s what the PP was saying: in that case there were no other eligible 11-12s.

[Anonymous]

What does "pp" mean? My child is eligible but was not selected; instead, a swimmer from the 9-10 age group, who is projected to place 6th, was chosen. Isn't summer swim about getting all kids involved? The children who put in a lot of effort in the 11-12 age group also deserve a chance. Additionally, what about the 9-10 swimmer? Does their time count toward the 9-10 ladder or the 11-12 ladder? That doesn't seem fair either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What does "pp" mean? My child is eligible but was not selected; instead, a swimmer from the 9-10 age group, who is projected to place 6th, was chosen. Isn't summer swim about getting all kids involved? The children who put in a lot of effort in the 11-12 age group also deserve a chance. Additionally, what about the 9-10 swimmer? Does their time count toward the 9-10 ladder or the 11-12 ladder? That doesn't seem fair either.

No, not for A meets. For B meets it is but the point of A meets is to win. If the 9-10 year old is faster they get the spot in this situation. Not all pools do this but sounds like yours does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does "pp" mean? My child is eligible but was not selected; instead, a swimmer from the 9-10 age group, who is projected to place 6th, was chosen. Isn't summer swim about getting all kids involved? The children who put in a lot of effort in the 11-12 age group also deserve a chance. Additionally, what about the 9-10 swimmer? Does their time count toward the 9-10 ladder or the 11-12 ladder? That doesn't seem fair either.

No, not for A meets. For B meets it is but the point of A meets is to win. If the 9-10 year old is faster they get the spot in this situation. Not all pools do this but sounds like yours does.

Regarding the ladder, does a child's time in the A meet, while swimming up an age group, count toward the ladder in the 9-10 group?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does "pp" mean? My child is eligible but was not selected; instead, a swimmer from the 9-10 age group, who is projected to place 6th, was chosen. Isn't summer swim about getting all kids involved? The children who put in a lot of effort in the 11-12 age group also deserve a chance. Additionally, what about the 9-10 swimmer? Does their time count toward the 9-10 ladder or the 11-12 ladder? That doesn't seem fair either.

No, not for A meets. For B meets it is but the point of A meets is to win. If the 9-10 year old is faster they get the spot in this situation. Not all pools do this but sounds like yours does.

Regarding the ladder, does a child's time in the A meet, while swimming up an age group, count toward the ladder in the 9-10 group?

It’ll show up as a 9-10 time.