swimming up someone nvsl

[Anonymous]

Our team only swims up to fill a lane that would otherwise be empty and with the kids from the younger age groups who would not be swimming if they weren’t swum up. They don’t score points, but get a chance to improve their times. We never swim up fast kids— too demoralizing for teammates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our team only swims up to fill a lane that would otherwise be empty and with the kids from the younger age groups who would not be swimming if they weren’t swum up. They don’t score points, but get a chance to improve their times. We never swim up fast kids— too demoralizing for teammates.

This is how it works on our team too. We swim someone up when there are open lanes because we don’t have anyone from that age group to fill them. Swimming up a 9-10 when there are 11-12s available isn’t fair to any of the kids involved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our team only swims up to fill a lane that would otherwise be empty and with the kids from the younger age groups who would not be swimming if they weren’t swum up. They don’t score points, but get a chance to improve their times. We never swim up fast kids— too demoralizing for teammates.

This is how it works on our team too. We swim someone up when there are open lanes because we don’t have anyone from that age group to fill them. Swimming up a 9-10 when there are 11-12s available isn’t fair to any of the kids involved.

Agreed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does your team swim up kids in an older age group to win meets? Ours does regularly. We would win either way.

Just wondering.

Question If swimming up swimmers was the difference between winning and losing a tight meet - would it be okay then?

OP here, I dont' think it should be done. I think unless your team has holes, kids should swim their age. I understand it is my opinion.

there are worse things than losing a swim meet. I didn't think summer swim was like an AAU team, I look forward to it every year. but I don't anymore. And that bothers me.

Yeah, it's not surprising that swimming is on the outs. I was talking with a parent the other day, he said look but it's so popular. Well, that's because there are fewer and fewer pools and teams as time goes on. I feel bad for my younger kid, because I am already thinking of ways to cancel `competitive*` swimming or whatever they call summer league these days. Maybe they should call quasi-social-lap-swimming-and-pool-noodle-time-with-economic-social-hierarchies-and-punk-coaches.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does your team swim up kids in an older age group to win meets? Ours does regularly. We would win either way.

Just wondering.

Question If swimming up swimmers was the difference between winning and losing a tight meet - would it be okay then?

OP here, I dont' think it should be done. I think unless your team has holes, kids should swim their age. I understand it is my opinion.

there are worse things than losing a swim meet. I didn't think summer swim was like an AAU team, I look forward to it every year. but I don't anymore. And that bothers me.

Yeah, it's not surprising that swimming is on the outs. I was talking with a parent the other day, he said look but it's so popular. Well, that's because there are fewer and fewer pools and teams as time goes on. I feel bad for my younger kid, because I am already thinking of ways to cancel `competitive*` swimming or whatever they call summer league these days. Maybe they should call quasi-social-lap-swimming-and-pool-noodle-time-with-economic-social-hierarchies-and-punk-coaches.

Um, MCSL has like 90 teams and something like 14K swimmers - and NVSL is much bigger than that. And those are only two of the summer leagues in the PVS LSC region. So if summer swim is on the decline I'm not seeing it. Individual private pools may close if they need renovations that their membership can't cover, but that's a bit different from being "on the outs."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does "pp" mean? My child is eligible but was not selected; instead, a swimmer from the 9-10 age group, who is projected to place 6th, was chosen. Isn't summer swim about getting all kids involved? The children who put in a lot of effort in the 11-12 age group also deserve a chance. Additionally, what about the 9-10 swimmer? Does their time count toward the 9-10 ladder or the 11-12 ladder? That doesn't seem fair either.

No, not for A meets. For B meets it is but the point of A meets is to win. If the 9-10 year old is faster they get the spot in this situation. Not all pools do this but sounds like yours does.

Regarding the ladder, does a child's time in the A meet, while swimming up an age group, count toward the ladder in the 9-10 group?

It’ll show up as a 9-10 time.

It's so unfair. Our pool made this decision for our "A" meet tomorrow. A kid didn't make the 9-10 cut, and it looks like an 11-12 year old, who was supposed to swim, isn't competing this week. The powers that be chose the kid who was ranked 4th or 5th on the ladder in the 9-10 category instead of going with a capable 11-12 swimmer who has a slightly slower time. Neither of these kids will score any points. This situation highlights how money can influence decisions at times. The selected child regularly receives private coaching during the offseason, and their parent is quite pushy, always questioning why their child isn’t practicing with certain groups during the club season. They also complain when their child isn’t swimming with the kids selected for the A meet during practice..

Our pool does this too. I don't know why. It is a summer league, for fun. Go by the ladder, but why swim up? So what if you don't win the meet. Parents have lost sight of what is important. I have A meet swimmers. But I hate that our team does this. Do they realize that they may turn off that 11 year old from joining next year? For what? Summer swim should be fun.

Our team with tech suits for only some swimmers, swimming up, and favoritism has made something we once looked forward to something I dislike.

Maybe the coaches are just preparing that 11 year old for next year when they will be 12 and the now 10 year old will be 11 and probably still be faster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does "pp" mean? My child is eligible but was not selected; instead, a swimmer from the 9-10 age group, who is projected to place 6th, was chosen. Isn't summer swim about getting all kids involved? The children who put in a lot of effort in the 11-12 age group also deserve a chance. Additionally, what about the 9-10 swimmer? Does their time count toward the 9-10 ladder or the 11-12 ladder? That doesn't seem fair either.

No, not for A meets. For B meets it is but the point of A meets is to win. If the 9-10 year old is faster they get the spot in this situation. Not all pools do this but sounds like yours does.

Regarding the ladder, does a child's time in the A meet, while swimming up an age group, count toward the ladder in the 9-10 group?

It’ll show up as a 9-10 time.

It's so unfair. Our pool made this decision for our "A" meet tomorrow. A kid didn't make the 9-10 cut, and it looks like an 11-12 year old, who was supposed to swim, isn't competing this week. The powers that be chose the kid who was ranked 4th or 5th on the ladder in the 9-10 category instead of going with a capable 11-12 swimmer who has a slightly slower time. Neither of these kids will score any points. This situation highlights how money can influence decisions at times. The selected child regularly receives private coaching during the offseason, and their parent is quite pushy, always questioning why their child isn’t practicing with certain groups during the club season. They also complain when their child isn’t swimming with the kids selected for the A meet during practice..

But in this case the 9-10 year old would have a better chance of scoring if his time is faster, right?

Isn’t this the same situation affecting the displaced 11- to 12-year-olds? These kids work hard but have never had the opportunity to participate in an “A” meet. Yet, a spot was given to a 10-year-old with a slightly faster time, even though neither swimmer would score any points. Why not give the 11-year-old a chance instead? Such decisions risk discouraging kids from continued participation.There are other 11-year-olds on the team who are capable of swimming that stroke and have untapped potential. The 10-year-old could qualify at the next B meet without issue. If points were at stake, this choice might be more understandable—but that’s not the case here. Many parents on the team have voiced their disappointment with this decision, and it’s easy to see why.

11 year old isn’t as fast as the 10 year old.

Swimming is a time objective sport. A meets aren’t about an 11 year old who “works hard”. A meets are about the fastest times on the team and earning points.

A team has to have a consistent policy about swimming up. In your scenario, neither the 11 or 10 year would earn any points. But what about a 12 year old boy and a 13 year old boy where 12 year old boy would earn points? Obviously you put the fastest swimmer into the meet. So a team would put in the 12 year old but not the 10 year old girl? The policy has to be consistent across the team.

The only caveat I would add is that the coach needs to make sure younger swimmer is comfortable swimming up. It can be quite intimidating for younger kids. If younger swimmer not comfortable, the older swimmer swims and younger skips the A meet event.

There are many people on this thread who disagree with you and think summer swimming should be less about winning and more about inclusivity and fun - yes even for A meets. These are member owned and run pools and what the members want should matter - the swim team can’t survive without members who pay the bills. I agree with the people saying eligible 11/12 year olds should get to swim the 11/12 races.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does "pp" mean? My child is eligible but was not selected; instead, a swimmer from the 9-10 age group, who is projected to place 6th, was chosen. Isn't summer swim about getting all kids involved? The children who put in a lot of effort in the 11-12 age group also deserve a chance. Additionally, what about the 9-10 swimmer? Does their time count toward the 9-10 ladder or the 11-12 ladder? That doesn't seem fair either.

No, not for A meets. For B meets it is but the point of A meets is to win. If the 9-10 year old is faster they get the spot in this situation. Not all pools do this but sounds like yours does.

Regarding the ladder, does a child's time in the A meet, while swimming up an age group, count toward the ladder in the 9-10 group?

It’ll show up as a 9-10 time.

It's so unfair. Our pool made this decision for our "A" meet tomorrow. A kid didn't make the 9-10 cut, and it looks like an 11-12 year old, who was supposed to swim, isn't competing this week. The powers that be chose the kid who was ranked 4th or 5th on the ladder in the 9-10 category instead of going with a capable 11-12 swimmer who has a slightly slower time. Neither of these kids will score any points. This situation highlights how money can influence decisions at times. The selected child regularly receives private coaching during the offseason, and their parent is quite pushy, always questioning why their child isn’t practicing with certain groups during the club season. They also complain when their child isn’t swimming with the kids selected for the A meet during practice..

But in this case the 9-10 year old would have a better chance of scoring if his time is faster, right?

Isn’t this the same situation affecting the displaced 11- to 12-year-olds? These kids work hard but have never had the opportunity to participate in an “A” meet. Yet, a spot was given to a 10-year-old with a slightly faster time, even though neither swimmer would score any points. Why not give the 11-year-old a chance instead? Such decisions risk discouraging kids from continued participation.There are other 11-year-olds on the team who are capable of swimming that stroke and have untapped potential. The 10-year-old could qualify at the next B meet without issue. If points were at stake, this choice might be more understandable—but that’s not the case here. Many parents on the team have voiced their disappointment with this decision, and it’s easy to see why.

11 year old isn’t as fast as the 10 year old.

Swimming is a time objective sport. A meets aren’t about an 11 year old who “works hard”. A meets are about the fastest times on the team and earning points.

A team has to have a consistent policy about swimming up. In your scenario, neither the 11 or 10 year would earn any points. But what about a 12 year old boy and a 13 year old boy where 12 year old boy would earn points? Obviously you put the fastest swimmer into the meet. So a team would put in the 12 year old but not the 10 year old girl? The policy has to be consistent across the team.

The only caveat I would add is that the coach needs to make sure younger swimmer is comfortable swimming up. It can be quite intimidating for younger kids. If younger swimmer not comfortable, the older swimmer swims and younger skips the A meet event.

There are many people on this thread who disagree with you and think summer swimming should be less about winning and more about inclusivity and fun - yes even for A meets. These are member owned and run pools and what the members want should matter - the swim team can’t survive without members who pay the bills. I agree with the people saying eligible 11/12 year olds should get to swim the 11/12 races.

The coaches and reps are in a no-win situation on this. For every parent that agrees with you, there is another paying member who feels it’s the coach’s job to seed to win and will criticize the coach for not doing so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does "pp" mean? My child is eligible but was not selected; instead, a swimmer from the 9-10 age group, who is projected to place 6th, was chosen. Isn't summer swim about getting all kids involved? The children who put in a lot of effort in the 11-12 age group also deserve a chance. Additionally, what about the 9-10 swimmer? Does their time count toward the 9-10 ladder or the 11-12 ladder? That doesn't seem fair either.

No, not for A meets. For B meets it is but the point of A meets is to win. If the 9-10 year old is faster they get the spot in this situation. Not all pools do this but sounds like yours does.

Regarding the ladder, does a child's time in the A meet, while swimming up an age group, count toward the ladder in the 9-10 group?

It’ll show up as a 9-10 time.

It's so unfair. Our pool made this decision for our "A" meet tomorrow. A kid didn't make the 9-10 cut, and it looks like an 11-12 year old, who was supposed to swim, isn't competing this week. The powers that be chose the kid who was ranked 4th or 5th on the ladder in the 9-10 category instead of going with a capable 11-12 swimmer who has a slightly slower time. Neither of these kids will score any points. This situation highlights how money can influence decisions at times. The selected child regularly receives private coaching during the offseason, and their parent is quite pushy, always questioning why their child isn’t practicing with certain groups during the club season. They also complain when their child isn’t swimming with the kids selected for the A meet during practice..

But in this case the 9-10 year old would have a better chance of scoring if his time is faster, right?

Isn’t this the same situation affecting the displaced 11- to 12-year-olds? These kids work hard but have never had the opportunity to participate in an “A” meet. Yet, a spot was given to a 10-year-old with a slightly faster time, even though neither swimmer would score any points. Why not give the 11-year-old a chance instead? Such decisions risk discouraging kids from continued participation.There are other 11-year-olds on the team who are capable of swimming that stroke and have untapped potential. The 10-year-old could qualify at the next B meet without issue. If points were at stake, this choice might be more understandable—but that’s not the case here. Many parents on the team have voiced their disappointment with this decision, and it’s easy to see why.

11 year old isn’t as fast as the 10 year old.

Swimming is a time objective sport. A meets aren’t about an 11 year old who “works hard”. A meets are about the fastest times on the team and earning points.

A team has to have a consistent policy about swimming up. In your scenario, neither the 11 or 10 year would earn any points. But what about a 12 year old boy and a 13 year old boy where 12 year old boy would earn points? Obviously you put the fastest swimmer into the meet. So a team would put in the 12 year old but not the 10 year old girl? The policy has to be consistent across the team.

The only caveat I would add is that the coach needs to make sure younger swimmer is comfortable swimming up. It can be quite intimidating for younger kids. If younger swimmer not comfortable, the older swimmer swims and younger skips the A meet event.

There are many people on this thread who disagree with you and think summer swimming should be less about winning and more about inclusivity and fun - yes even for A meets. These are member owned and run pools and what the members want should matter - the swim team can’t survive without members who pay the bills. I agree with the people saying eligible 11/12 year olds should get to swim the 11/12 races.

The coaches and reps are in a no-win situation on this. For every parent that agrees with you, there is another paying member who feels it’s the coach’s job to seed to win and will criticize the coach for not doing so.

For sure, but when that happens enough, the team culture changes.
We were a large and happy 5/6/7 team and got a few of the aforementioned parents who pushed their kids, demanded to publish times (didn’t happen) and recruited their fast swimming friends from other neighborhoods. I live around the corner so this is my pool.
For these families, please go find a swim team that suits your needs and leave the little neighborhood pools alone.

[Anonymous]

This question is a litmus test for how a team (and its parents/members) views summer swim. Our team only swims up from younger age groups when we need to fill a lane. Never based on time. We would rather give the chance to the (slower) swimmer in the age group. Allowing them to swim in an A meet is more important to us than potentially getting a few extra points (and if those few points are determinative of the meet, so be it . . . but meets are rarely decided by a handful of points).

Other teams might place a higher value on getting the most points or possibly creating a spot for another younger swimmer (by moving the other swimmer to a higher age group). However, we don't see that as consistent with the purpose of summer swim.

[Anonymous]

I view summer swim as a competitive swim team where the goal on Saturday's is to win the swim meet. In no other sport would you not put in your best, even if it means swimming up a kid, to win just so other kids can feel good or have the opportunity to swim on a Saturday. Maybe swimming up a kid means the 13-14 relay can win vs both 13-14 and 11-12 losing that week. Everyone getting the chance to swim is what B meets are for. And no, I am not from a D1 team and never aspire to be there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I view summer swim as a competitive swim team where the goal on Saturday's is to win the swim meet. In no other sport would you not put in your best, even if it means swimming up a kid, to win just so other kids can feel good or have the opportunity to swim on a Saturday. Maybe swimming up a kid means the 13-14 relay can win vs both 13-14 and 11-12 losing that week. Everyone getting the chance to swim is what B meets are for. And no, I am not from a D1 team and never aspire to be there.

+1. Agree with this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our NVSL team swims up swimmers in A meets only to fill empty lanes (when there is no one in that age group to swim the event). We would never leave off a swimmer (absent some sort of discipline issue) to swim someone up from a younger age group.

As a former team rep, I am actually surprised that some teams do that as part of strategy to win, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

I've been an NVSL team rep for a long time (and consider myself a card carrying crazy swim parent) and there would be a shit storm on our team if younger kids were allowed to bump older kids and swim up in A meets. Summer swim is supposed to be fun. The younger kids look up to the older kids. I wouldn't want older kids to stop participating because they are getting bumped out of meets.

This is where I'm at. In my 4 years as team rep, the coaches never submitted a lineup to me that had a swim-up into a lane that could have been filled by another swimmer in the designated. It just wasn't the way we operated, and I'm glad I didn't have to consider how to handle it.

Since I left the position, it looks like a new coach has done it a couple times, but both appear to be a case where the kid in the appropriate age group who was bypassed missed more practices than he attended and/or didn't have a time b/c he didn't bother to show at time trials or B meets. It still makes me a bit uncomfortable.

In the end, I don't like the practice of bypassing kids to swim up younger swimmers. I guess its just the way I see the spirit of the NVSL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does your team swim up kids in an older age group to win meets? Ours does regularly. We would win either way.

Just wondering.

Question If swimming up swimmers was the difference between winning and losing a tight meet - would it be okay then?

OP here, I dont' think it should be done. I think unless your team has holes, kids should swim their age. I understand it is my opinion.

I agree with you. Our NVSL team only does swim ups if there are holes in the older age groups.

[Anonymous]

I’m surprised NVSL doesn’t have the same rules as MCSL. Swimups aren’t allowed unless all available swimmers in that age group
have been maxed out on events, and teams with four or more eligible swimmers in a group can’t have a swim up in anything but free. (That last bit was told to me by a longtime MCSL board member.)

I guess teams could declare kids unavailable in order to bypass them, but I can’t imagine it happening in my middle-of-the-road division.