Should so called “thanksgiving” be a national day of mourning?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

Yes, you certainly are responsible, if you are white.

You benefit from unearned white privilege. And even if you don’t believe you are a racist, you participate and perpetuate systemic white racism by being here.

So, all white people in America are by your definition racist. Hmm. That sounds pretty…racist.

DP. No, just the people who are ok with the status quo - not addressing systemic racism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. Screw off. We don’t care about your pet political causes and the gaping hole in your personality that causes you to promote this kind of stuff. Don’t care about about the claims and fairy wishes of indigenous groups or “land-back advocates”. We tolerate some of this crap in the name of good manners and being charitable. But there’s a limit.

It is a glorious day of national Thanksgiving. I am very grateful that European religious settlers founded the greatest civilization on earth, committed by its founding documents to ideals that were never, not once, within the founding spirit of any prior society.

And not for nothing, but if the North American indigenous peoples had had the ability to cross the Atlantic and the firepower, once there, to seize land and conform the local peoples to their customs, they would have done so without question. Many were very warlike and inclined toward expansion and capture on the continent. (As were most cultures of the era.) We just happen to be much more advanced and way better at war.

To the victor belongs the spoils.

What do you mean, "we?" You weren't there. I very much doubt that you are good at war.

“We” are the Roman empire. Rome expanded into Pagan Europe and never stopped. Now the Roman imperial culture has conquered the world. All ofbus on DCUM are a part of that legacy like it or not.

We are not the Roman Empire. Good lord.

Wow what a detailed rebuttal. That settles it then… Or we could simply learn about history:

Our government is literally inspired by ancient Roman politics. Christianity, the dominant religion of modern Europe was imposed on the native tribes of the north by the Romans. Kings and popes derived their authority throughout the centuries by tying their lineage to the Roman Empire.

“The Holy Roman Emperor title provided the highest prestige among medieval Roman Catholic monarchs, because the empire was considered by the Roman Catholic Church to be the only successor of the Roman Empire during the Middle Ages and the early modern period. Thus, in theory and diplomacy, the emperors were considered primus inter pares, regarded as first among equals among other Roman Catholic monarchs across Europe.”

How can an educated DC resident not know this very basic history of our own society?

Don’t you mean the ancient Greeks?

But you are right. The Christians have been murdering and oppressing people into submission for centuries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. Screw off. We don’t care about your pet political causes and the gaping hole in your personality that causes you to promote this kind of stuff. Don’t care about about the claims and fairy wishes of indigenous groups or “land-back advocates”. We tolerate some of this crap in the name of good manners and being charitable. But there’s a limit.

It is a glorious day of national Thanksgiving. I am very grateful that European religious settlers founded the greatest civilization on earth, committed by its founding documents to ideals that were never, not once, within the founding spirit of any prior society.

And not for nothing, but if the North American indigenous peoples had had the ability to cross the Atlantic and the firepower, once there, to seize land and conform the local peoples to their customs, they would have done so without question. Many were very warlike and inclined toward expansion and capture on the continent. (As were most cultures of the era.) We just happen to be much more advanced and way better at war.

To the victor belongs the spoils.

What do you mean, "we?" You weren't there. I very much doubt that you are good at war.

“We” are the Roman empire. Rome expanded into Pagan Europe and never stopped. Now the Roman imperial culture has conquered the world. All ofbus on DCUM are a part of that legacy like it or not.

We are not the Roman Empire. Good lord.

Wow what a detailed rebuttal. That settles it then… Or we could simply learn about history:

Our government is literally inspired by ancient Roman politics. Christianity, the dominant religion of modern Europe was imposed on the native tribes of the north by the Romans. Kings and popes derived their authority throughout the centuries by tying their lineage to the Roman Empire.

“The Holy Roman Emperor title provided the highest prestige among medieval Roman Catholic monarchs, because the empire was considered by the Roman Catholic Church to be the only successor of the Roman Empire during the Middle Ages and the early modern period. Thus, in theory and diplomacy, the emperors were considered primus inter pares, regarded as first among equals among other Roman Catholic monarchs across Europe.”

How can an educated DC resident not know this very basic history of our own society?

Don’t you mean the ancient Greeks?

But you are right. The Christians have been murdering and oppressing people into submission for centuries.

Greek philosophy but Roman government. Also, Rome eventually conquered ancient Greece so the Roman culture was the ultimate imperial culture that carried through to the modern era. The plan was to erase all vestiges of Native American culture in the same way that they successfully wiped out and consumed any and all indigenous European pagan cultures. Europeans should stand in solidarity with the Native American tribes that survived since the same horrors were perpetrated against their own ancestors. It’s like Stockholm syndrome for the Brits to do that crap to the Native Americans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Discussion tangent:

Something I realized after reading "Guns, Germs and Steel" was that, even if the European explorers and setters arrive in the Americas with nothing but kind hearts and friendly intentions, they still would have pretty much wiped out the indigenous population within the same time frame; the diseases they brought with them would still have spread just as much in such a vulnerable population.

Another tangent - I'm teaching 5th grade social studies and we are just discussing European explorers and settlers of the "new world" right now. I never had such an easy time getting student (these are ESOL students) to understand the term "epidemic" before, or why so many Native Americans were susceptible to the diseases the Europeans brought. Talk about "lived experience".

Anyhow,

Thanksgiving is our only truly American holiday, that everyone can celebrate regardless of religion. It doesn't have to have anything to do with Native Americans, though. It can just be a day of thanks for food and family.

I guess our ancestors shouldn’t have pushed the fake pilgrim story then.

The 4th of July is a “truly American holiday”.

The fake pilgrim story was invented in the mid to late 1800s as way to bring the country together. Now we're taking the story apart. But we have nothing to replace it with. Similar to the wider parallel.

We could collectively look at it as a chance to bring ALL of the country together instead of just the white, male colonizers. Day of mourning *and* healing.

We have enough depressing days of mourning and reflection in this country. Can’t we have any damn fun anymore? This country has become so depressing.

+1

Though, honestly, I think most of these people are just deranged liberals so far gone that you rarely encounter them in real life (and if you did they’d bore you to tears with their sanctimony). They say stuff like this on the internet and on college campuses. Otherwise, super irrelevant.

We live a great life in a great neighborhood with people of many races and religions. Broadly liberal, sure, but people celebrate Thanksgiving, Christmas, 4th of July in big and festive ways. Lots of joy. (One exception for the weird vegan family that attends every protest under the sun and litters their yard with political signs, but they’re rarely invited anyway.) Normal people don’t traffic in grievance politics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

It’s not about personal guilt or responsibility. It’s doing what we can to acknowledge the massive wrongs committed by our government and to fix what we can. Being part of this country’s future means dealing with this country’s past.

I have no interest on dwelling on the past. Thanks.

You get the bad with the good. It’s not a la cart.

Wrong! I’m doing a great job of celebrating the good and mostly ignoring the bad. Thanks for coming, though.

[Anonymous]

Fixating on just one narrow piece of anything—including history—misses the big picture.

Yes, the Europeans who settled coastal MA and the colonizers who followed ultimately fought over land.

But our American history also includes defeating the British crown and building a new country that established a democracy and rule of law never before seen.

^^^
That never would have happened had we stayed in Europe. And it’s kind of a big deal.

It obviously wasn’t all good.

Slavery and the related human rights abuses that came with it and the inequality that wasn’t addressed until the 1960s are shameful.

But things are getting better. They usually do if you study history rather than fixate and navel gaze.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Discussion tangent:

Something I realized after reading "Guns, Germs and Steel" was that, even if the European explorers and setters arrive in the Americas with nothing but kind hearts and friendly intentions, they still would have pretty much wiped out the indigenous population within the same time frame; the diseases they brought with them would still have spread just as much in such a vulnerable population.

Another tangent - I'm teaching 5th grade social studies and we are just discussing European explorers and settlers of the "new world" right now. I never had such an easy time getting student (these are ESOL students) to understand the term "epidemic" before, or why so many Native Americans were susceptible to the diseases the Europeans brought. Talk about "lived experience".

Anyhow,

Thanksgiving is our only truly American holiday, that everyone can celebrate regardless of religion. It doesn't have to have anything to do with Native Americans, though. It can just be a day of thanks for food and family.

I guess our ancestors shouldn’t have pushed the fake pilgrim story then.

The 4th of July is a “truly American holiday”.

The fake pilgrim story was invented in the mid to late 1800s as way to bring the country together. Now we're taking the story apart. But we have nothing to replace it with. Similar to the wider parallel.

We could collectively look at it as a chance to bring ALL of the country together instead of just the white, male colonizers. Day of mourning *and* healing.

We have enough depressing days of mourning and reflection in this country. Can’t we have any damn fun anymore? This country has become so depressing.

+1

Though, honestly, I think most of these people are just deranged liberals so far gone that you rarely encounter them in real life (and if you did they’d bore you to tears with their sanctimony). They say stuff like this on the internet and on college campuses. Otherwise, super irrelevant.

We live a great life in a great neighborhood with people of many races and religions. Broadly liberal, sure, but people celebrate Thanksgiving, Christmas, 4th of July in big and festive ways. Lots of joy. (One exception for the weird vegan family that attends every protest under the sun and litters their yard with political signs, but they’re rarely invited anyway.) Normal people don’t traffic in grievance politics.

What does being Vegan have to do with anything? Obviously you have staked out your own culture war position but others shouldn’t think for themselves? Why would a yard sign bother you if it’s on someone else's property?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No. Screw off. We don’t care about your pet political causes and the gaping hole in your personality that causes you to promote this kind of stuff. Don’t care about about the claims and fairy wishes of indigenous groups or “land-back advocates”. We tolerate some of this crap in the name of good manners and being charitable. But there’s a limit.

It is a glorious day of national Thanksgiving. I am very grateful that European religious settlers founded the greatest civilization on earth, committed by its founding documents to ideals that were never, not once, within the founding spirit of any prior society.

And not for nothing, but if the North American indigenous peoples had had the ability to cross the Atlantic and the firepower, once there, to seize land and conform the local peoples to their customs, they would have done so without question. Many were very warlike and inclined toward expansion and capture on the continent. (As were most cultures of the era.) We just happen to be much more advanced and way better at war.

To the victor belongs the spoils.

Maybe tangential but what are these "ideals" that you say were never within the "founding spirit" of any society?

I don't think we need to ban Thanksgiving, but maybe we do need to do a WAY better job at education....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. Screw off. We don’t care about your pet political causes and the gaping hole in your personality that causes you to promote this kind of stuff. Don’t care about about the claims and fairy wishes of indigenous groups or “land-back advocates”. We tolerate some of this crap in the name of good manners and being charitable. But there’s a limit.

It is a glorious day of national Thanksgiving. I am very grateful that European religious settlers founded the greatest civilization on earth, committed by its founding documents to ideals that were never, not once, within the founding spirit of any prior society.

And not for nothing, but if the North American indigenous peoples had had the ability to cross the Atlantic and the firepower, once there, to seize land and conform the local peoples to their customs, they would have done so without question. Many were very warlike and inclined toward expansion and capture on the continent. (As were most cultures of the era.) We just happen to be much more advanced and way better at war.

To the victor belongs the spoils.

What do you mean, "we?" You weren't there. I very much doubt that you are good at war.

“We” are the Roman empire. Rome expanded into Pagan Europe and never stopped. Now the Roman imperial culture has conquered the world. All ofbus on DCUM are a part of that legacy like it or not.

We are not the Roman Empire. Good lord.

Wow what a detailed rebuttal. That settles it then… Or we could simply learn about history:

Our government is literally inspired by ancient Roman politics. Christianity, the dominant religion of modern Europe was imposed on the native tribes of the north by the Romans. Kings and popes derived their authority throughout the centuries by tying their lineage to the Roman Empire.

“The Holy Roman Emperor title provided the highest prestige among medieval Roman Catholic monarchs, because the empire was considered by the Roman Catholic Church to be the only successor of the Roman Empire during the Middle Ages and the early modern period. Thus, in theory and diplomacy, the emperors were considered primus inter pares, regarded as first among equals among other Roman Catholic monarchs across Europe.”

How can an educated DC resident not know this very basic history of our own society?

Don’t you mean the ancient Greeks?

But you are right. The Christians have been murdering and oppressing people into submission for centuries.

Greek philosophy but Roman government. Also, Rome eventually conquered ancient Greece so the Roman culture was the ultimate imperial culture that carried through to the modern era. The plan was to erase all vestiges of Native American culture in the same way that they successfully wiped out and consumed any and all indigenous European pagan cultures. Europeans should stand in solidarity with the Native American tribes that survived since the same horrors were perpetrated against their own ancestors. It’s like Stockholm syndrome for the Brits to do that crap to the Native Americans.

Instead of football, every family should play a traditional game of pitz to honor native cultures eradicated by colonizers. Just don't be on the losing team

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. Screw off. We don’t care about your pet political causes and the gaping hole in your personality that causes you to promote this kind of stuff. Don’t care about about the claims and fairy wishes of indigenous groups or “land-back advocates”. We tolerate some of this crap in the name of good manners and being charitable. But there’s a limit.

It is a glorious day of national Thanksgiving. I am very grateful that European religious settlers founded the greatest civilization on earth, committed by its founding documents to ideals that were never, not once, within the founding spirit of any prior society.

And not for nothing, but if the North American indigenous peoples had had the ability to cross the Atlantic and the firepower, once there, to seize land and conform the local peoples to their customs, they would have done so without question. Many were very warlike and inclined toward expansion and capture on the continent. (As were most cultures of the era.) We just happen to be much more advanced and way better at war.

To the victor belongs the spoils.

Maybe tangential but what are these "ideals" that you say were never within the "founding spirit" of any society?

I don't think we need to ban Thanksgiving, but maybe we do need to do a WAY better job at education....

Can you name a single society with those ideals at it's core?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. Screw off. We don’t care about your pet political causes and the gaping hole in your personality that causes you to promote this kind of stuff. Don’t care about about the claims and fairy wishes of indigenous groups or “land-back advocates”. We tolerate some of this crap in the name of good manners and being charitable. But there’s a limit.

It is a glorious day of national Thanksgiving. I am very grateful that European religious settlers founded the greatest civilization on earth, committed by its founding documents to ideals that were never, not once, within the founding spirit of any prior society.

And not for nothing, but if the North American indigenous peoples had had the ability to cross the Atlantic and the firepower, once there, to seize land and conform the local peoples to their customs, they would have done so without question. Many were very warlike and inclined toward expansion and capture on the continent. (As were most cultures of the era.) We just happen to be much more advanced and way better at war.

To the victor belongs the spoils.

Maybe tangential but what are these "ideals" that you say were never within the "founding spirit" of any society?

I don't think we need to ban Thanksgiving, but maybe we do need to do a WAY better job at education....

Can you name a single society with those ideals at it's core?

I asked you to name the ideals you are talking about. You didn't.

[Anonymous]

Shouldn’t we really be blaming the guy who invented gunpowder? He’s Chinese I believe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

Are you a citizen? Then you are a member of the government that has inherited the treaties with the tribes that are being violated today. Sorry!

I'm not a member of any government, and I don't have any responsibility, or sense of guilt, for what some people did decades or centuries ago.

You can keep saying I should care about this, and I'll keep telling you I won't.

And there's nothing you can do about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

Are you a citizen? Then you are a member of the government that has inherited the treaties with the tribes that are being violated today. Sorry!

I'm not a member of any government, and I don't have any responsibility, or sense of guilt, for what some people did decades or centuries ago.

You can keep saying I should care about this, and I'll keep telling you I won't.

And there's nothing you can do about it.

If you are white, you are responsible. Period!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

Are you a citizen? Then you are a member of the government that has inherited the treaties with the tribes that are being violated today. Sorry!

I'm not a member of any government, and I don't have any responsibility, or sense of guilt, for what some people did decades or centuries ago.

You can keep saying I should care about this, and I'll keep telling you I won't.

And there's nothing you can do about it.

If you are white, you are responsible. Period!

How about, no?

Wait hold on, let me check. Still no.

And no.

I can do this all day.