Ethnic cleansing in Eastern Europe - when will the United Nations declare this a genocide?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ukrainians and Russians are not the same ethnic group. Slav is an umbrella term that covers.multiple ethnicities.

The thing is that there are many ethnic Russians who consider themselves Ukrainian citizens and want to keep that Ukrainian nationality and do not want to become Russian citizens. Also, the Ukrainian concept of nationality is much more inclusive - Muslim Tatars in Crimea were Ukrainian citizens as well as ethnic Russians born in Crimea.

Putin has explicitly said that Ukraine does not have the right to exist as a nation. His troops assume that anyone who supports Ukrainian sovereignty, regardless of ethnicity, is a Nazi and therefore should be “cleansed”. Ethnic Russians who support the Ukrainian government have been killed. There are many ethnic Russians in Mariupol, Kharkiv, Kherson and Mykolaev. It doesn’t matter from Putin’s perspective - if they resist because they support the Ukrainian state then they are Nazis who must be cleansed from the land. He is not separating out the ethnic Russians and protecting them unless they also support Russian rule of Ukraine.

If your point is that Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians, then the same is true about Russia. I mean North Caucasus alone has like a hundred different ethnicities and they all carry Russian passports.

No, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians. My point is that Putin is carrying out a cleansing based on Ukrainian nationality, not Ukrainian ethnicity.

What is a non-ethnic Ukrainian if not a Ukrainian citizen of a different ethnicity?

Again, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians, or as you seem to insist "Ukrainian citizens of a different ethnicity". My point is that Putin and his senior management are engaged in a strategy of genocide based on nationality, not ethnicity. All ethnicities in Ukraine that support a Ukrainian sovereign state are intended targets of the Russian Forces, and are being "cleansed," i.e. killed, forced to support Russian Forces or deported away into Russia. BTW, many of them speak Russian and are ethnically Russian, and have family members in Russia, but if they have or choose to keep Ukrainian passports and citizenship, or participate in Ukrainian governance, or want to stay in Ukraine, they are at risk of being bombed, detained, tortured, deported, disappeared or killed.

I don’t think anyone questions the fact that everyone who lives in Ukraine is at risk.

My disagreement with you is your statement that Ukraine has a “more inclusive” concept of nationality. What do you mean by that? More inclusive than which country? Clearly Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians but Russia has millions of citizens who aren’t ethnic Russians either, and it has more of them just by virtue of size. So what did you mean by “much more inclusive” concept of nationality?

Maybe you don't know much about Ukraine's history and diversity. Ukraine was founded over 1000 years ago by the Kievan Rus, who were Varangian Vikings (Scandinavians) who migrated to what is now Ukraine and intermingled with the Slavs. It had a lot of different peoples and cultures, for example eastern parts of Ukraine being conquered by the Mongols in the 1200s, a big influx of Ashkenazi Jews and Germans into Western Ukraine in the 1300s, then portions Turkicized in the 1500s as the Crimean Khanate got independence from the Golden Horde and went under the influence of the Ottomans. Ukraine was far more recently forcibly cleansed of many of its more diverse populations by the Soviets, like removing asians, turkic people etc like the Crimean Tatars, along with the genocide of native Ukrainians during the Holodomor, to be displaced and ethnic Russians imported to take over their lands, homes and farms.

Literally every word of this can be applied to Russia from Vikings to Mongols.

Literally so what. One group is raping and cutting out tongues.

[Anonymous]

And in 2022. 2022. Not 1200s or 1300s or 1500s or WWII. 2022.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ukrainians and Russians are not the same ethnic group. Slav is an umbrella term that covers.multiple ethnicities.

The thing is that there are many ethnic Russians who consider themselves Ukrainian citizens and want to keep that Ukrainian nationality and do not want to become Russian citizens. Also, the Ukrainian concept of nationality is much more inclusive - Muslim Tatars in Crimea were Ukrainian citizens as well as ethnic Russians born in Crimea.

Putin has explicitly said that Ukraine does not have the right to exist as a nation. His troops assume that anyone who supports Ukrainian sovereignty, regardless of ethnicity, is a Nazi and therefore should be “cleansed”. Ethnic Russians who support the Ukrainian government have been killed. There are many ethnic Russians in Mariupol, Kharkiv, Kherson and Mykolaev. It doesn’t matter from Putin’s perspective - if they resist because they support the Ukrainian state then they are Nazis who must be cleansed from the land. He is not separating out the ethnic Russians and protecting them unless they also support Russian rule of Ukraine.

If your point is that Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians, then the same is true about Russia. I mean North Caucasus alone has like a hundred different ethnicities and they all carry Russian passports.

No, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians. My point is that Putin is carrying out a cleansing based on Ukrainian nationality, not Ukrainian ethnicity.

What is a non-ethnic Ukrainian if not a Ukrainian citizen of a different ethnicity?

Again, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians, or as you seem to insist "Ukrainian citizens of a different ethnicity". My point is that Putin and his senior management are engaged in a strategy of genocide based on nationality, not ethnicity. All ethnicities in Ukraine that support a Ukrainian sovereign state are intended targets of the Russian Forces, and are being "cleansed," i.e. killed, forced to support Russian Forces or deported away into Russia. BTW, many of them speak Russian and are ethnically Russian, and have family members in Russia, but if they have or choose to keep Ukrainian passports and citizenship, or participate in Ukrainian governance, or want to stay in Ukraine, they are at risk of being bombed, detained, tortured, deported, disappeared or killed.

I don’t think anyone questions the fact that everyone who lives in Ukraine is at risk.

My disagreement with you is your statement that Ukraine has a “more inclusive” concept of nationality. What do you mean by that? More inclusive than which country? Clearly Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians but Russia has millions of citizens who aren’t ethnic Russians either, and it has more of them just by virtue of size. So what did you mean by “much more inclusive” concept of nationality?

Maybe you don't know much about Ukraine's history and diversity. Ukraine was founded over 1000 years ago by the Kievan Rus, who were Varangian Vikings (Scandinavians) who migrated to what is now Ukraine and intermingled with the Slavs. It had a lot of different peoples and cultures, for example eastern parts of Ukraine being conquered by the Mongols in the 1200s, a big influx of Ashkenazi Jews and Germans into Western Ukraine in the 1300s, then portions Turkicized in the 1500s as the Crimean Khanate got independence from the Golden Horde and went under the influence of the Ottomans. Ukraine was far more recently forcibly cleansed of many of its more diverse populations by the Soviets, like removing asians, turkic people etc like the Crimean Tatars, along with the genocide of native Ukrainians during the Holodomor, to be displaced and ethnic Russians imported to take over their lands, homes and farms.

Literally every word of this can be applied to Russia from Vikings to Mongols.

Literally so what. One group is raping and cutting out tongues.

I’m not questioning that. Simply asking what you mean by a more inclusive concept of nationality , and I don’t think your answers make sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ukrainians and Russians are not the same ethnic group. Slav is an umbrella term that covers.multiple ethnicities.

The thing is that there are many ethnic Russians who consider themselves Ukrainian citizens and want to keep that Ukrainian nationality and do not want to become Russian citizens. Also, the Ukrainian concept of nationality is much more inclusive - Muslim Tatars in Crimea were Ukrainian citizens as well as ethnic Russians born in Crimea.

Putin has explicitly said that Ukraine does not have the right to exist as a nation. His troops assume that anyone who supports Ukrainian sovereignty, regardless of ethnicity, is a Nazi and therefore should be “cleansed”. Ethnic Russians who support the Ukrainian government have been killed. There are many ethnic Russians in Mariupol, Kharkiv, Kherson and Mykolaev. It doesn’t matter from Putin’s perspective - if they resist because they support the Ukrainian state then they are Nazis who must be cleansed from the land. He is not separating out the ethnic Russians and protecting them unless they also support Russian rule of Ukraine.

If your point is that Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians, then the same is true about Russia. I mean North Caucasus alone has like a hundred different ethnicities and they all carry Russian passports.

No, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians. My point is that Putin is carrying out a cleansing based on Ukrainian nationality, not Ukrainian ethnicity.

What is a non-ethnic Ukrainian if not a Ukrainian citizen of a different ethnicity?

Again, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians, or as you seem to insist "Ukrainian citizens of a different ethnicity". My point is that Putin and his senior management are engaged in a strategy of genocide based on nationality, not ethnicity. All ethnicities in Ukraine that support a Ukrainian sovereign state are intended targets of the Russian Forces, and are being "cleansed," i.e. killed, forced to support Russian Forces or deported away into Russia. BTW, many of them speak Russian and are ethnically Russian, and have family members in Russia, but if they have or choose to keep Ukrainian passports and citizenship, or participate in Ukrainian governance, or want to stay in Ukraine, they are at risk of being bombed, detained, tortured, deported, disappeared or killed.

I don’t think anyone questions the fact that everyone who lives in Ukraine is at risk.

My disagreement with you is your statement that Ukraine has a “more inclusive” concept of nationality. What do you mean by that? More inclusive than which country? Clearly Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians but Russia has millions of citizens who aren’t ethnic Russians either, and it has more of them just by virtue of size. So what did you mean by “much more inclusive” concept of nationality?

Maybe you don't know much about Ukraine's history and diversity. Ukraine was founded over 1000 years ago by the Kievan Rus, who were Varangian Vikings (Scandinavians) who migrated to what is now Ukraine and intermingled with the Slavs. It had a lot of different peoples and cultures, for example eastern parts of Ukraine being conquered by the Mongols in the 1200s, a big influx of Ashkenazi Jews and Germans into Western Ukraine in the 1300s, then portions Turkicized in the 1500s as the Crimean Khanate got independence from the Golden Horde and went under the influence of the Ottomans. Ukraine was far more recently forcibly cleansed of many of its more diverse populations by the Soviets, like removing asians, turkic people etc like the Crimean Tatars, along with the genocide of native Ukrainians during the Holodomor, to be displaced and ethnic Russians imported to take over their lands, homes and farms.

Literally every word of this can be applied to Russia from Vikings to Mongols.

I guess that means idiotic comments like "but Russia has diversity while Ukraine doesn't" are now negated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ukrainians and Russians are not the same ethnic group. Slav is an umbrella term that covers.multiple ethnicities.

The thing is that there are many ethnic Russians who consider themselves Ukrainian citizens and want to keep that Ukrainian nationality and do not want to become Russian citizens. Also, the Ukrainian concept of nationality is much more inclusive - Muslim Tatars in Crimea were Ukrainian citizens as well as ethnic Russians born in Crimea.

Putin has explicitly said that Ukraine does not have the right to exist as a nation. His troops assume that anyone who supports Ukrainian sovereignty, regardless of ethnicity, is a Nazi and therefore should be “cleansed”. Ethnic Russians who support the Ukrainian government have been killed. There are many ethnic Russians in Mariupol, Kharkiv, Kherson and Mykolaev. It doesn’t matter from Putin’s perspective - if they resist because they support the Ukrainian state then they are Nazis who must be cleansed from the land. He is not separating out the ethnic Russians and protecting them unless they also support Russian rule of Ukraine.

If your point is that Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians, then the same is true about Russia. I mean North Caucasus alone has like a hundred different ethnicities and they all carry Russian passports.

No, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians. My point is that Putin is carrying out a cleansing based on Ukrainian nationality, not Ukrainian ethnicity.

What is a non-ethnic Ukrainian if not a Ukrainian citizen of a different ethnicity?

Again, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians, or as you seem to insist "Ukrainian citizens of a different ethnicity". My point is that Putin and his senior management are engaged in a strategy of genocide based on nationality, not ethnicity. All ethnicities in Ukraine that support a Ukrainian sovereign state are intended targets of the Russian Forces, and are being "cleansed," i.e. killed, forced to support Russian Forces or deported away into Russia. BTW, many of them speak Russian and are ethnically Russian, and have family members in Russia, but if they have or choose to keep Ukrainian passports and citizenship, or participate in Ukrainian governance, or want to stay in Ukraine, they are at risk of being bombed, detained, tortured, deported, disappeared or killed.

I don’t think anyone questions the fact that everyone who lives in Ukraine is at risk.

My disagreement with you is your statement that Ukraine has a “more inclusive” concept of nationality. What do you mean by that? More inclusive than which country? Clearly Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians but Russia has millions of citizens who aren’t ethnic Russians either, and it has more of them just by virtue of size. So what did you mean by “much more inclusive” concept of nationality?

Maybe you don't know much about Ukraine's history and diversity. Ukraine was founded over 1000 years ago by the Kievan Rus, who were Varangian Vikings (Scandinavians) who migrated to what is now Ukraine and intermingled with the Slavs. It had a lot of different peoples and cultures, for example eastern parts of Ukraine being conquered by the Mongols in the 1200s, a big influx of Ashkenazi Jews and Germans into Western Ukraine in the 1300s, then portions Turkicized in the 1500s as the Crimean Khanate got independence from the Golden Horde and went under the influence of the Ottomans. Ukraine was far more recently forcibly cleansed of many of its more diverse populations by the Soviets, like removing asians, turkic people etc like the Crimean Tatars, along with the genocide of native Ukrainians during the Holodomor, to be displaced and ethnic Russians imported to take over their lands, homes and farms.

Literally every word of this can be applied to Russia from Vikings to Mongols.

I guess that means idiotic comments like "but Russia has diversity while Ukraine doesn't" are now negated.

Did someone actually say that?

Russia has more ethnic diversity simply because it’s larger and spans over a myriad of small ethnic communities. Have you been to the North Caucasus? I’m guessing not. Easily a hundred ethnicities, different languages, customs, religions. It’s not a ding against Ukraine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ukrainians and Russians are not the same ethnic group. Slav is an umbrella term that covers.multiple ethnicities.

The thing is that there are many ethnic Russians who consider themselves Ukrainian citizens and want to keep that Ukrainian nationality and do not want to become Russian citizens. Also, the Ukrainian concept of nationality is much more inclusive - Muslim Tatars in Crimea were Ukrainian citizens as well as ethnic Russians born in Crimea.

Putin has explicitly said that Ukraine does not have the right to exist as a nation. His troops assume that anyone who supports Ukrainian sovereignty, regardless of ethnicity, is a Nazi and therefore should be “cleansed”. Ethnic Russians who support the Ukrainian government have been killed. There are many ethnic Russians in Mariupol, Kharkiv, Kherson and Mykolaev. It doesn’t matter from Putin’s perspective - if they resist because they support the Ukrainian state then they are Nazis who must be cleansed from the land. He is not separating out the ethnic Russians and protecting them unless they also support Russian rule of Ukraine.

If your point is that Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians, then the same is true about Russia. I mean North Caucasus alone has like a hundred different ethnicities and they all carry Russian passports.

No, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians. My point is that Putin is carrying out a cleansing based on Ukrainian nationality, not Ukrainian ethnicity.

What is a non-ethnic Ukrainian if not a Ukrainian citizen of a different ethnicity?

Again, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians, or as you seem to insist "Ukrainian citizens of a different ethnicity". My point is that Putin and his senior management are engaged in a strategy of genocide based on nationality, not ethnicity. All ethnicities in Ukraine that support a Ukrainian sovereign state are intended targets of the Russian Forces, and are being "cleansed," i.e. killed, forced to support Russian Forces or deported away into Russia. BTW, many of them speak Russian and are ethnically Russian, and have family members in Russia, but if they have or choose to keep Ukrainian passports and citizenship, or participate in Ukrainian governance, or want to stay in Ukraine, they are at risk of being bombed, detained, tortured, deported, disappeared or killed.

I don’t think anyone questions the fact that everyone who lives in Ukraine is at risk.

My disagreement with you is your statement that Ukraine has a “more inclusive” concept of nationality. What do you mean by that? More inclusive than which country? Clearly Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians but Russia has millions of citizens who aren’t ethnic Russians either, and it has more of them just by virtue of size. So what did you mean by “much more inclusive” concept of nationality?

Maybe you don't know much about Ukraine's history and diversity. Ukraine was founded over 1000 years ago by the Kievan Rus, who were Varangian Vikings (Scandinavians) who migrated to what is now Ukraine and intermingled with the Slavs. It had a lot of different peoples and cultures, for example eastern parts of Ukraine being conquered by the Mongols in the 1200s, a big influx of Ashkenazi Jews and Germans into Western Ukraine in the 1300s, then portions Turkicized in the 1500s as the Crimean Khanate got independence from the Golden Horde and went under the influence of the Ottomans. Ukraine was far more recently forcibly cleansed of many of its more diverse populations by the Soviets, like removing asians, turkic people etc like the Crimean Tatars, along with the genocide of native Ukrainians during the Holodomor, to be displaced and ethnic Russians imported to take over their lands, homes and farms.

Literally every word of this can be applied to Russia from Vikings to Mongols.

Literally so what. One group is raping and cutting out tongues.

I’m not questioning that. Simply asking what you mean by a more inclusive concept of nationality , and I don’t think your answers make sense.

DP:. Americans don't tend to understand the concept or definition of nation because we colloquially use it interchangeably with country (state). And then there's its misuse in racial terms. For instance, Kurds are a nationality despite not having a country. This colloquial American misuse of the term makes parsing something like genocide definitions difficult because the definition you are using is different.

Here's a long primer: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nationalism/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ukrainians and Russians are not the same ethnic group. Slav is an umbrella term that covers.multiple ethnicities.

The thing is that there are many ethnic Russians who consider themselves Ukrainian citizens and want to keep that Ukrainian nationality and do not want to become Russian citizens. Also, the Ukrainian concept of nationality is much more inclusive - Muslim Tatars in Crimea were Ukrainian citizens as well as ethnic Russians born in Crimea.

Putin has explicitly said that Ukraine does not have the right to exist as a nation. His troops assume that anyone who supports Ukrainian sovereignty, regardless of ethnicity, is a Nazi and therefore should be “cleansed”. Ethnic Russians who support the Ukrainian government have been killed. There are many ethnic Russians in Mariupol, Kharkiv, Kherson and Mykolaev. It doesn’t matter from Putin’s perspective - if they resist because they support the Ukrainian state then they are Nazis who must be cleansed from the land. He is not separating out the ethnic Russians and protecting them unless they also support Russian rule of Ukraine.

If your point is that Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians, then the same is true about Russia. I mean North Caucasus alone has like a hundred different ethnicities and they all carry Russian passports.

No, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians. My point is that Putin is carrying out a cleansing based on Ukrainian nationality, not Ukrainian ethnicity.

What is a non-ethnic Ukrainian if not a Ukrainian citizen of a different ethnicity?

Again, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians, or as you seem to insist "Ukrainian citizens of a different ethnicity". My point is that Putin and his senior management are engaged in a strategy of genocide based on nationality, not ethnicity. All ethnicities in Ukraine that support a Ukrainian sovereign state are intended targets of the Russian Forces, and are being "cleansed," i.e. killed, forced to support Russian Forces or deported away into Russia. BTW, many of them speak Russian and are ethnically Russian, and have family members in Russia, but if they have or choose to keep Ukrainian passports and citizenship, or participate in Ukrainian governance, or want to stay in Ukraine, they are at risk of being bombed, detained, tortured, deported, disappeared or killed.

I don’t think anyone questions the fact that everyone who lives in Ukraine is at risk.

My disagreement with you is your statement that Ukraine has a “more inclusive” concept of nationality. What do you mean by that? More inclusive than which country? Clearly Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians but Russia has millions of citizens who aren’t ethnic Russians either, and it has more of them just by virtue of size. So what did you mean by “much more inclusive” concept of nationality?

Maybe you don't know much about Ukraine's history and diversity. Ukraine was founded over 1000 years ago by the Kievan Rus, who were Varangian Vikings (Scandinavians) who migrated to what is now Ukraine and intermingled with the Slavs. It had a lot of different peoples and cultures, for example eastern parts of Ukraine being conquered by the Mongols in the 1200s, a big influx of Ashkenazi Jews and Germans into Western Ukraine in the 1300s, then portions Turkicized in the 1500s as the Crimean Khanate got independence from the Golden Horde and went under the influence of the Ottomans. Ukraine was far more recently forcibly cleansed of many of its more diverse populations by the Soviets, like removing asians, turkic people etc like the Crimean Tatars, along with the genocide of native Ukrainians during the Holodomor, to be displaced and ethnic Russians imported to take over their lands, homes and farms.

Holiodomor killed more ethnic Kazakhs than Ukrainians so I’m not sure why Ukraine decided that it owns this particular misfortune.

The entire Eurasian space was a site of multiple migration flows both in and out. Ukraine isn’t unique in that. I am not convinced that the Ukrainian concept of nationality is more inclusive than its neighbors. God knows his many different ethnicities carry a Russian passport.

Read some about holodomor before you spew disinformation. Ukraine is speaking about how it affected them. Nothing is stopping the Kazakhs or anyone else to declare the 1930-33 famine within their territories as genocide.

Here is an excerpt: “ The result of Stalin’s policies was the Great Famine (Holodomor) of 1932–33—a man-made demographic catastrophe unprecedented in peacetime. Of the estimated five million people who died in the Soviet Union, almost four million were Ukrainians. The famine was a direct assault on the Ukrainian peasantry, which had stubbornly continued to resist collectivization; indirectly, it was an attack on the Ukrainian village, which traditionally had been a key element of Ukrainian national culture.”
https://www.britannica.com/place/Ukraine/The-famine-of-1932-33-Holodomor

“The 1930-33 famine in Kazakhstan claimed the lives of 1.5 million people, approximately 1.3 million ethnic Kazakhs.” This is by no means tiny and Kazakhstan just as Ukraine should declare it as genocide.
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/the-kazakh-famine-1930-33-and-the-politics-history-the-post-soviet-space

and someday, they may do just that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ukrainians and Russians are not the same ethnic group. Slav is an umbrella term that covers.multiple ethnicities.

The thing is that there are many ethnic Russians who consider themselves Ukrainian citizens and want to keep that Ukrainian nationality and do not want to become Russian citizens. Also, the Ukrainian concept of nationality is much more inclusive - Muslim Tatars in Crimea were Ukrainian citizens as well as ethnic Russians born in Crimea.

Putin has explicitly said that Ukraine does not have the right to exist as a nation. His troops assume that anyone who supports Ukrainian sovereignty, regardless of ethnicity, is a Nazi and therefore should be “cleansed”. Ethnic Russians who support the Ukrainian government have been killed. There are many ethnic Russians in Mariupol, Kharkiv, Kherson and Mykolaev. It doesn’t matter from Putin’s perspective - if they resist because they support the Ukrainian state then they are Nazis who must be cleansed from the land. He is not separating out the ethnic Russians and protecting them unless they also support Russian rule of Ukraine.

If your point is that Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians, then the same is true about Russia. I mean North Caucasus alone has like a hundred different ethnicities and they all carry Russian passports.

No, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians. My point is that Putin is carrying out a cleansing based on Ukrainian nationality, not Ukrainian ethnicity.

What is a non-ethnic Ukrainian if not a Ukrainian citizen of a different ethnicity?

Again, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians, or as you seem to insist "Ukrainian citizens of a different ethnicity". My point is that Putin and his senior management are engaged in a strategy of genocide based on nationality, not ethnicity. All ethnicities in Ukraine that support a Ukrainian sovereign state are intended targets of the Russian Forces, and are being "cleansed," i.e. killed, forced to support Russian Forces or deported away into Russia. BTW, many of them speak Russian and are ethnically Russian, and have family members in Russia, but if they have or choose to keep Ukrainian passports and citizenship, or participate in Ukrainian governance, or want to stay in Ukraine, they are at risk of being bombed, detained, tortured, deported, disappeared or killed.

I don’t think anyone questions the fact that everyone who lives in Ukraine is at risk.

My disagreement with you is your statement that Ukraine has a “more inclusive” concept of nationality. What do you mean by that? More inclusive than which country? Clearly Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians but Russia has millions of citizens who aren’t ethnic Russians either, and it has more of them just by virtue of size. So what did you mean by “much more inclusive” concept of nationality?

Maybe you don't know much about Ukraine's history and diversity. Ukraine was founded over 1000 years ago by the Kievan Rus, who were Varangian Vikings (Scandinavians) who migrated to what is now Ukraine and intermingled with the Slavs. It had a lot of different peoples and cultures, for example eastern parts of Ukraine being conquered by the Mongols in the 1200s, a big influx of Ashkenazi Jews and Germans into Western Ukraine in the 1300s, then portions Turkicized in the 1500s as the Crimean Khanate got independence from the Golden Horde and went under the influence of the Ottomans. Ukraine was far more recently forcibly cleansed of many of its more diverse populations by the Soviets, like removing asians, turkic people etc like the Crimean Tatars, along with the genocide of native Ukrainians during the Holodomor, to be displaced and ethnic Russians imported to take over their lands, homes and farms.

Literally every word of this can be applied to Russia from Vikings to Mongols.

I guess that means idiotic comments like "but Russia has diversity while Ukraine doesn't" are now negated.

DP

I have not heard anyone saying or reporting that. I just had often heard that Ukraine and Russia drew from similar ethnic groups so PP’s historical details help me to understand why that is. Putin himself often mentioned in official speeches about R and U being “brothers” (With family like that, I would seek permanent emancipation).

Ukraine was incrementally heading towards Western model of democracy, and NATO membership, which highly threatened Putin. Perhaps the sense of citizen inclusivity another pp referred to is more implied through political rights and wide spread access to non state media, rather than a social reality …. On the other hand in Russia, diverse citizens are force fed the same Kremlin talking points, jailed if they dissent, and political rivals are murdered or jailed.

I think we all agree that Russia’s conduct in this illegal war is inhuman, barbaric and unjustifiable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ukrainians and Russians are not the same ethnic group. Slav is an umbrella term that covers.multiple ethnicities.

The thing is that there are many ethnic Russians who consider themselves Ukrainian citizens and want to keep that Ukrainian nationality and do not want to become Russian citizens. Also, the Ukrainian concept of nationality is much more inclusive - Muslim Tatars in Crimea were Ukrainian citizens as well as ethnic Russians born in Crimea.

Putin has explicitly said that Ukraine does not have the right to exist as a nation. His troops assume that anyone who supports Ukrainian sovereignty, regardless of ethnicity, is a Nazi and therefore should be “cleansed”. Ethnic Russians who support the Ukrainian government have been killed. There are many ethnic Russians in Mariupol, Kharkiv, Kherson and Mykolaev. It doesn’t matter from Putin’s perspective - if they resist because they support the Ukrainian state then they are Nazis who must be cleansed from the land. He is not separating out the ethnic Russians and protecting them unless they also support Russian rule of Ukraine.

If your point is that Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians, then the same is true about Russia. I mean North Caucasus alone has like a hundred different ethnicities and they all carry Russian passports.

No, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians. My point is that Putin is carrying out a cleansing based on Ukrainian nationality, not Ukrainian ethnicity.

What is a non-ethnic Ukrainian if not a Ukrainian citizen of a different ethnicity?

Again, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians, or as you seem to insist "Ukrainian citizens of a different ethnicity". My point is that Putin and his senior management are engaged in a strategy of genocide based on nationality, not ethnicity. All ethnicities in Ukraine that support a Ukrainian sovereign state are intended targets of the Russian Forces, and are being "cleansed," i.e. killed, forced to support Russian Forces or deported away into Russia. BTW, many of them speak Russian and are ethnically Russian, and have family members in Russia, but if they have or choose to keep Ukrainian passports and citizenship, or participate in Ukrainian governance, or want to stay in Ukraine, they are at risk of being bombed, detained, tortured, deported, disappeared or killed.

I don’t think anyone questions the fact that everyone who lives in Ukraine is at risk.

My disagreement with you is your statement that Ukraine has a “more inclusive” concept of nationality. What do you mean by that? More inclusive than which country? Clearly Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians but Russia has millions of citizens who aren’t ethnic Russians either, and it has more of them just by virtue of size. So what did you mean by “much more inclusive” concept of nationality?

Maybe you don't know much about Ukraine's history and diversity. Ukraine was founded over 1000 years ago by the Kievan Rus, who were Varangian Vikings (Scandinavians) who migrated to what is now Ukraine and intermingled with the Slavs. It had a lot of different peoples and cultures, for example eastern parts of Ukraine being conquered by the Mongols in the 1200s, a big influx of Ashkenazi Jews and Germans into Western Ukraine in the 1300s, then portions Turkicized in the 1500s as the Crimean Khanate got independence from the Golden Horde and went under the influence of the Ottomans. Ukraine was far more recently forcibly cleansed of many of its more diverse populations by the Soviets, like removing asians, turkic people etc like the Crimean Tatars, along with the genocide of native Ukrainians during the Holodomor, to be displaced and ethnic Russians imported to take over their lands, homes and farms.

Literally every word of this can be applied to Russia from Vikings to Mongols.

I guess that means idiotic comments like "but Russia has diversity while Ukraine doesn't" are now negated.

DP

I have not heard anyone saying or reporting that. I just had often heard that Ukraine and Russia drew from similar ethnic groups so PP’s historical details help me to understand why that is. Putin himself often mentioned in official speeches about R and U being “brothers” (With family like that, I would seek permanent emancipation).

Ukraine was incrementally heading towards Western model of democracy, and NATO membership, which highly threatened Putin. Perhaps the sense of citizen inclusivity another pp referred to is more implied through political rights and wide spread access to non state media, rather than a social reality …. On the other hand in Russia, diverse citizens are force fed the same Kremlin talking points, jailed if they dissent, and political rivals are murdered or jailed.

I think we all agree that Russia’s conduct in this illegal war is inhuman, barbaric and unjustifiable.

Ukraine:


Russia:

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ukrainians and Russians are not the same ethnic group. Slav is an umbrella term that covers.multiple ethnicities.

The thing is that there are many ethnic Russians who consider themselves Ukrainian citizens and want to keep that Ukrainian nationality and do not want to become Russian citizens. Also, the Ukrainian concept of nationality is much more inclusive - Muslim Tatars in Crimea were Ukrainian citizens as well as ethnic Russians born in Crimea.

Putin has explicitly said that Ukraine does not have the right to exist as a nation. His troops assume that anyone who supports Ukrainian sovereignty, regardless of ethnicity, is a Nazi and therefore should be “cleansed”. Ethnic Russians who support the Ukrainian government have been killed. There are many ethnic Russians in Mariupol, Kharkiv, Kherson and Mykolaev. It doesn’t matter from Putin’s perspective - if they resist because they support the Ukrainian state then they are Nazis who must be cleansed from the land. He is not separating out the ethnic Russians and protecting them unless they also support Russian rule of Ukraine.

If your point is that Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians, then the same is true about Russia. I mean North Caucasus alone has like a hundred different ethnicities and they all carry Russian passports.

No, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians. My point is that Putin is carrying out a cleansing based on Ukrainian nationality, not Ukrainian ethnicity.

What is a non-ethnic Ukrainian if not a Ukrainian citizen of a different ethnicity?

Again, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians, or as you seem to insist "Ukrainian citizens of a different ethnicity". My point is that Putin and his senior management are engaged in a strategy of genocide based on nationality, not ethnicity. All ethnicities in Ukraine that support a Ukrainian sovereign state are intended targets of the Russian Forces, and are being "cleansed," i.e. killed, forced to support Russian Forces or deported away into Russia. BTW, many of them speak Russian and are ethnically Russian, and have family members in Russia, but if they have or choose to keep Ukrainian passports and citizenship, or participate in Ukrainian governance, or want to stay in Ukraine, they are at risk of being bombed, detained, tortured, deported, disappeared or killed.

I don’t think anyone questions the fact that everyone who lives in Ukraine is at risk.

My disagreement with you is your statement that Ukraine has a “more inclusive” concept of nationality. What do you mean by that? More inclusive than which country? Clearly Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians but Russia has millions of citizens who aren’t ethnic Russians either, and it has more of them just by virtue of size. So what did you mean by “much more inclusive” concept of nationality?

Maybe you don't know much about Ukraine's history and diversity. Ukraine was founded over 1000 years ago by the Kievan Rus, who were Varangian Vikings (Scandinavians) who migrated to what is now Ukraine and intermingled with the Slavs. It had a lot of different peoples and cultures, for example eastern parts of Ukraine being conquered by the Mongols in the 1200s, a big influx of Ashkenazi Jews and Germans into Western Ukraine in the 1300s, then portions Turkicized in the 1500s as the Crimean Khanate got independence from the Golden Horde and went under the influence of the Ottomans. Ukraine was far more recently forcibly cleansed of many of its more diverse populations by the Soviets, like removing asians, turkic people etc like the Crimean Tatars, along with the genocide of native Ukrainians during the Holodomor, to be displaced and ethnic Russians imported to take over their lands, homes and farms.

Literally every word of this can be applied to Russia from Vikings to Mongols.

I guess that means idiotic comments like "but Russia has diversity while Ukraine doesn't" are now negated.

DP

I have not heard anyone saying or reporting that. I just had often heard that Ukraine and Russia drew from similar ethnic groups so PP’s historical details help me to understand why that is. Putin himself often mentioned in official speeches about R and U being “brothers” (With family like that, I would seek permanent emancipation).

Ukraine was incrementally heading towards Western model of democracy, and NATO membership, which highly threatened Putin. Perhaps the sense of citizen inclusivity another pp referred to is more implied through political rights and wide spread access to non state media, rather than a social reality …. On the other hand in Russia, diverse citizens are force fed the same Kremlin talking points, jailed if they dissent, and political rivals are murdered or jailed.

I think we all agree that Russia’s conduct in this illegal war is inhuman, barbaric and unjustifiable.

Ukraine:


Russia:

Isn’t this nation of origin rather than ethnicity? PP was getting at rich cultural diversity common to both …

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ukrainians and Russians are not the same ethnic group. Slav is an umbrella term that covers.multiple ethnicities.

The thing is that there are many ethnic Russians who consider themselves Ukrainian citizens and want to keep that Ukrainian nationality and do not want to become Russian citizens. Also, the Ukrainian concept of nationality is much more inclusive - Muslim Tatars in Crimea were Ukrainian citizens as well as ethnic Russians born in Crimea.

Putin has explicitly said that Ukraine does not have the right to exist as a nation. His troops assume that anyone who supports Ukrainian sovereignty, regardless of ethnicity, is a Nazi and therefore should be “cleansed”. Ethnic Russians who support the Ukrainian government have been killed. There are many ethnic Russians in Mariupol, Kharkiv, Kherson and Mykolaev. It doesn’t matter from Putin’s perspective - if they resist because they support the Ukrainian state then they are Nazis who must be cleansed from the land. He is not separating out the ethnic Russians and protecting them unless they also support Russian rule of Ukraine.

If your point is that Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians, then the same is true about Russia. I mean North Caucasus alone has like a hundred different ethnicities and they all carry Russian passports.

No, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians. My point is that Putin is carrying out a cleansing based on Ukrainian nationality, not Ukrainian ethnicity.

What is a non-ethnic Ukrainian if not a Ukrainian citizen of a different ethnicity?

Again, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians, or as you seem to insist "Ukrainian citizens of a different ethnicity". My point is that Putin and his senior management are engaged in a strategy of genocide based on nationality, not ethnicity. All ethnicities in Ukraine that support a Ukrainian sovereign state are intended targets of the Russian Forces, and are being "cleansed," i.e. killed, forced to support Russian Forces or deported away into Russia. BTW, many of them speak Russian and are ethnically Russian, and have family members in Russia, but if they have or choose to keep Ukrainian passports and citizenship, or participate in Ukrainian governance, or want to stay in Ukraine, they are at risk of being bombed, detained, tortured, deported, disappeared or killed.

I don’t think anyone questions the fact that everyone who lives in Ukraine is at risk.

My disagreement with you is your statement that Ukraine has a “more inclusive” concept of nationality. What do you mean by that? More inclusive than which country? Clearly Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians but Russia has millions of citizens who aren’t ethnic Russians either, and it has more of them just by virtue of size. So what did you mean by “much more inclusive” concept of nationality?

Maybe you don't know much about Ukraine's history and diversity. Ukraine was founded over 1000 years ago by the Kievan Rus, who were Varangian Vikings (Scandinavians) who migrated to what is now Ukraine and intermingled with the Slavs. It had a lot of different peoples and cultures, for example eastern parts of Ukraine being conquered by the Mongols in the 1200s, a big influx of Ashkenazi Jews and Germans into Western Ukraine in the 1300s, then portions Turkicized in the 1500s as the Crimean Khanate got independence from the Golden Horde and went under the influence of the Ottomans. Ukraine was far more recently forcibly cleansed of many of its more diverse populations by the Soviets, like removing asians, turkic people etc like the Crimean Tatars, along with the genocide of native Ukrainians during the Holodomor, to be displaced and ethnic Russians imported to take over their lands, homes and farms.

Literally every word of this can be applied to Russia from Vikings to Mongols.

I guess that means idiotic comments like "but Russia has diversity while Ukraine doesn't" are now negated.

DP

I have not heard anyone saying or reporting that. I just had often heard that Ukraine and Russia drew from similar ethnic groups so PP’s historical details help me to understand why that is. Putin himself often mentioned in official speeches about R and U being “brothers” (With family like that, I would seek permanent emancipation).

Ukraine was incrementally heading towards Western model of democracy, and NATO membership, which highly threatened Putin. Perhaps the sense of citizen inclusivity another pp referred to is more implied through political rights and wide spread access to non state media, rather than a social reality …. On the other hand in Russia, diverse citizens are force fed the same Kremlin talking points, jailed if they dissent, and political rivals are murdered or jailed.

I think we all agree that Russia’s conduct in this illegal war is inhuman, barbaric and unjustifiable.

Ukraine:


Russia:

Isn’t this nation of origin rather than ethnicity? PP was getting at rich cultural diversity common to both …

What does that even mean? Is pp comparing the 80% who consider themselves russian in russia, vs the 77% who consider themselves Ukrainian in Ukraine? This assumes a certain monolithic view of both. For example, russians in Krasnodar region are different from russians in Karelia region, different from those in Moscow while they all fall under “russian”. The Karelians genetically may be closer to Finland than they are to Ukraine.

[Anonymous]

Is this what the pp is alluding to?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Russians#:~:text=The%20top%20four%20Y%2DDNA,%25%20(Central%20and%20South%20Russia)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ukrainians and Russians are not the same ethnic group. Slav is an umbrella term that covers.multiple ethnicities.

The thing is that there are many ethnic Russians who consider themselves Ukrainian citizens and want to keep that Ukrainian nationality and do not want to become Russian citizens. Also, the Ukrainian concept of nationality is much more inclusive - Muslim Tatars in Crimea were Ukrainian citizens as well as ethnic Russians born in Crimea.

Putin has explicitly said that Ukraine does not have the right to exist as a nation. His troops assume that anyone who supports Ukrainian sovereignty, regardless of ethnicity, is a Nazi and therefore should be “cleansed”. Ethnic Russians who support the Ukrainian government have been killed. There are many ethnic Russians in Mariupol, Kharkiv, Kherson and Mykolaev. It doesn’t matter from Putin’s perspective - if they resist because they support the Ukrainian state then they are Nazis who must be cleansed from the land. He is not separating out the ethnic Russians and protecting them unless they also support Russian rule of Ukraine.

If your point is that Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians, then the same is true about Russia. I mean North Caucasus alone has like a hundred different ethnicities and they all carry Russian passports.

No, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians. My point is that Putin is carrying out a cleansing based on Ukrainian nationality, not Ukrainian ethnicity.

What is a non-ethnic Ukrainian if not a Ukrainian citizen of a different ethnicity?

Again, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians, or as you seem to insist "Ukrainian citizens of a different ethnicity". My point is that Putin and his senior management are engaged in a strategy of genocide based on nationality, not ethnicity. All ethnicities in Ukraine that support a Ukrainian sovereign state are intended targets of the Russian Forces, and are being "cleansed," i.e. killed, forced to support Russian Forces or deported away into Russia. BTW, many of them speak Russian and are ethnically Russian, and have family members in Russia, but if they have or choose to keep Ukrainian passports and citizenship, or participate in Ukrainian governance, or want to stay in Ukraine, they are at risk of being bombed, detained, tortured, deported, disappeared or killed.

I don’t think anyone questions the fact that everyone who lives in Ukraine is at risk.

My disagreement with you is your statement that Ukraine has a “more inclusive” concept of nationality. What do you mean by that? More inclusive than which country? Clearly Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians but Russia has millions of citizens who aren’t ethnic Russians either, and it has more of them just by virtue of size. So what did you mean by “much more inclusive” concept of nationality?

Maybe you don't know much about Ukraine's history and diversity. Ukraine was founded over 1000 years ago by the Kievan Rus, who were Varangian Vikings (Scandinavians) who migrated to what is now Ukraine and intermingled with the Slavs. It had a lot of different peoples and cultures, for example eastern parts of Ukraine being conquered by the Mongols in the 1200s, a big influx of Ashkenazi Jews and Germans into Western Ukraine in the 1300s, then portions Turkicized in the 1500s as the Crimean Khanate got independence from the Golden Horde and went under the influence of the Ottomans. Ukraine was far more recently forcibly cleansed of many of its more diverse populations by the Soviets, like removing asians, turkic people etc like the Crimean Tatars, along with the genocide of native Ukrainians during the Holodomor, to be displaced and ethnic Russians imported to take over their lands, homes and farms.

Literally every word of this can be applied to Russia from Vikings to Mongols.

I guess that means idiotic comments like "but Russia has diversity while Ukraine doesn't" are now negated.

DP

I have not heard anyone saying or reporting that. I just had often heard that Ukraine and Russia drew from similar ethnic groups so PP’s historical details help me to understand why that is. Putin himself often mentioned in official speeches about R and U being “brothers” (With family like that, I would seek permanent emancipation).

Ukraine was incrementally heading towards Western model of democracy, and NATO membership, which highly threatened Putin. Perhaps the sense of citizen inclusivity another pp referred to is more implied through political rights and wide spread access to non state media, rather than a social reality …. On the other hand in Russia, diverse citizens are force fed the same Kremlin talking points, jailed if they dissent, and political rivals are murdered or jailed.

I think we all agree that Russia’s conduct in this illegal war is inhuman, barbaric and unjustifiable.

Ukraine:


Russia:

Isn’t this nation of origin rather than ethnicity? PP was getting at rich cultural diversity common to both …

What does that even mean? Is pp comparing the 80% who consider themselves russian in russia, vs the 77% who consider themselves Ukrainian in Ukraine? This assumes a certain monolithic view of both. For example, russians in Krasnodar region are different from russians in Karelia region, different from those in Moscow while they all fall under “russian”. The Karelians genetically may be closer to Finland than they are to Ukraine.

And common sense that a majority of Russians were born in Russia and a majority of Ukrainians were born in Ukraine - but does not help us to understand ethnic, cultural and language affiliations.

the earlier PPs gave good info on cultural diversity going back hundreds of years …

It is heart breaking that Russia would do these horrific war crimes anywhere let alone against a country it often referred to as its brother.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ukrainians and Russians are not the same ethnic group. Slav is an umbrella term that covers.multiple ethnicities.

The thing is that there are many ethnic Russians who consider themselves Ukrainian citizens and want to keep that Ukrainian nationality and do not want to become Russian citizens. Also, the Ukrainian concept of nationality is much more inclusive - Muslim Tatars in Crimea were Ukrainian citizens as well as ethnic Russians born in Crimea.

Putin has explicitly said that Ukraine does not have the right to exist as a nation. His troops assume that anyone who supports Ukrainian sovereignty, regardless of ethnicity, is a Nazi and therefore should be “cleansed”. Ethnic Russians who support the Ukrainian government have been killed. There are many ethnic Russians in Mariupol, Kharkiv, Kherson and Mykolaev. It doesn’t matter from Putin’s perspective - if they resist because they support the Ukrainian state then they are Nazis who must be cleansed from the land. He is not separating out the ethnic Russians and protecting them unless they also support Russian rule of Ukraine.

If your point is that Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians, then the same is true about Russia. I mean North Caucasus alone has like a hundred different ethnicities and they all carry Russian passports.

No, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians. My point is that Putin is carrying out a cleansing based on Ukrainian nationality, not Ukrainian ethnicity.

What is a non-ethnic Ukrainian if not a Ukrainian citizen of a different ethnicity?

Again, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians, or as you seem to insist "Ukrainian citizens of a different ethnicity". My point is that Putin and his senior management are engaged in a strategy of genocide based on nationality, not ethnicity. All ethnicities in Ukraine that support a Ukrainian sovereign state are intended targets of the Russian Forces, and are being "cleansed," i.e. killed, forced to support Russian Forces or deported away into Russia. BTW, many of them speak Russian and are ethnically Russian, and have family members in Russia, but if they have or choose to keep Ukrainian passports and citizenship, or participate in Ukrainian governance, or want to stay in Ukraine, they are at risk of being bombed, detained, tortured, deported, disappeared or killed.

I don’t think anyone questions the fact that everyone who lives in Ukraine is at risk.

My disagreement with you is your statement that Ukraine has a “more inclusive” concept of nationality. What do you mean by that? More inclusive than which country? Clearly Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians but Russia has millions of citizens who aren’t ethnic Russians either, and it has more of them just by virtue of size. So what did you mean by “much more inclusive” concept of nationality?

Maybe you don't know much about Ukraine's history and diversity. Ukraine was founded over 1000 years ago by the Kievan Rus, who were Varangian Vikings (Scandinavians) who migrated to what is now Ukraine and intermingled with the Slavs. It had a lot of different peoples and cultures, for example eastern parts of Ukraine being conquered by the Mongols in the 1200s, a big influx of Ashkenazi Jews and Germans into Western Ukraine in the 1300s, then portions Turkicized in the 1500s as the Crimean Khanate got independence from the Golden Horde and went under the influence of the Ottomans. Ukraine was far more recently forcibly cleansed of many of its more diverse populations by the Soviets, like removing asians, turkic people etc like the Crimean Tatars, along with the genocide of native Ukrainians during the Holodomor, to be displaced and ethnic Russians imported to take over their lands, homes and farms.

Literally every word of this can be applied to Russia from Vikings to Mongols.

I guess that means idiotic comments like "but Russia has diversity while Ukraine doesn't" are now negated.

DP

I have not heard anyone saying or reporting that. I just had often heard that Ukraine and Russia drew from similar ethnic groups so PP’s historical details help me to understand why that is. Putin himself often mentioned in official speeches about R and U being “brothers” (With family like that, I would seek permanent emancipation).

Ukraine was incrementally heading towards Western model of democracy, and NATO membership, which highly threatened Putin. Perhaps the sense of citizen inclusivity another pp referred to is more implied through political rights and wide spread access to non state media, rather than a social reality …. On the other hand in Russia, diverse citizens are force fed the same Kremlin talking points, jailed if they dissent, and political rivals are murdered or jailed.

I think we all agree that Russia’s conduct in this illegal war is inhuman, barbaric and unjustifiable.

Ukraine:


Russia:

Isn’t this nation of origin rather than ethnicity? PP was getting at rich cultural diversity common to both …

What does that even mean? Is pp comparing the 80% who consider themselves russian in russia, vs the 77% who consider themselves Ukrainian in Ukraine? This assumes a certain monolithic view of both. For example, russians in Krasnodar region are different from russians in Karelia region, different from those in Moscow while they all fall under “russian”. The Karelians genetically may be closer to Finland than they are to Ukraine.

PP is arguing that Russia isn't committing genocide against Ukrainians. They do acknowledge that Russia is comitting crimes against humanity but think genocide isn't one of them on technical grounds because some of the victims are ethnic Russians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ukrainians and Russians are not the same ethnic group. Slav is an umbrella term that covers.multiple ethnicities.

The thing is that there are many ethnic Russians who consider themselves Ukrainian citizens and want to keep that Ukrainian nationality and do not want to become Russian citizens. Also, the Ukrainian concept of nationality is much more inclusive - Muslim Tatars in Crimea were Ukrainian citizens as well as ethnic Russians born in Crimea.

Putin has explicitly said that Ukraine does not have the right to exist as a nation. His troops assume that anyone who supports Ukrainian sovereignty, regardless of ethnicity, is a Nazi and therefore should be “cleansed”. Ethnic Russians who support the Ukrainian government have been killed. There are many ethnic Russians in Mariupol, Kharkiv, Kherson and Mykolaev. It doesn’t matter from Putin’s perspective - if they resist because they support the Ukrainian state then they are Nazis who must be cleansed from the land. He is not separating out the ethnic Russians and protecting them unless they also support Russian rule of Ukraine.

If your point is that Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians, then the same is true about Russia. I mean North Caucasus alone has like a hundred different ethnicities and they all carry Russian passports.

No, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians. My point is that Putin is carrying out a cleansing based on Ukrainian nationality, not Ukrainian ethnicity.

What is a non-ethnic Ukrainian if not a Ukrainian citizen of a different ethnicity?

Again, my point isn't that Ukraine has non-ethnic Ukrainians, or as you seem to insist "Ukrainian citizens of a different ethnicity". My point is that Putin and his senior management are engaged in a strategy of genocide based on nationality, not ethnicity. All ethnicities in Ukraine that support a Ukrainian sovereign state are intended targets of the Russian Forces, and are being "cleansed," i.e. killed, forced to support Russian Forces or deported away into Russia. BTW, many of them speak Russian and are ethnically Russian, and have family members in Russia, but if they have or choose to keep Ukrainian passports and citizenship, or participate in Ukrainian governance, or want to stay in Ukraine, they are at risk of being bombed, detained, tortured, deported, disappeared or killed.

I don’t think anyone questions the fact that everyone who lives in Ukraine is at risk.

My disagreement with you is your statement that Ukraine has a “more inclusive” concept of nationality. What do you mean by that? More inclusive than which country? Clearly Ukraine has citizens that aren’t ethnic Ukrainians but Russia has millions of citizens who aren’t ethnic Russians either, and it has more of them just by virtue of size. So what did you mean by “much more inclusive” concept of nationality?

Maybe you don't know much about Ukraine's history and diversity. Ukraine was founded over 1000 years ago by the Kievan Rus, who were Varangian Vikings (Scandinavians) who migrated to what is now Ukraine and intermingled with the Slavs. It had a lot of different peoples and cultures, for example eastern parts of Ukraine being conquered by the Mongols in the 1200s, a big influx of Ashkenazi Jews and Germans into Western Ukraine in the 1300s, then portions Turkicized in the 1500s as the Crimean Khanate got independence from the Golden Horde and went under the influence of the Ottomans. Ukraine was far more recently forcibly cleansed of many of its more diverse populations by the Soviets, like removing asians, turkic people etc like the Crimean Tatars, along with the genocide of native Ukrainians during the Holodomor, to be displaced and ethnic Russians imported to take over their lands, homes and farms.

Literally every word of this can be applied to Russia from Vikings to Mongols.

I guess that means idiotic comments like "but Russia has diversity while Ukraine doesn't" are now negated.

DP

I have not heard anyone saying or reporting that. I just had often heard that Ukraine and Russia drew from similar ethnic groups so PP’s historical details help me to understand why that is. Putin himself often mentioned in official speeches about R and U being “brothers” (With family like that, I would seek permanent emancipation).

Ukraine was incrementally heading towards Western model of democracy, and NATO membership, which highly threatened Putin. Perhaps the sense of citizen inclusivity another pp referred to is more implied through political rights and wide spread access to non state media, rather than a social reality …. On the other hand in Russia, diverse citizens are force fed the same Kremlin talking points, jailed if they dissent, and political rivals are murdered or jailed.

I think we all agree that Russia’s conduct in this illegal war is inhuman, barbaric and unjustifiable.

Ukraine:


Russia:

Isn’t this nation of origin rather than ethnicity? PP was getting at rich cultural diversity common to both …

What does that even mean? Is pp comparing the 80% who consider themselves russian in russia, vs the 77% who consider themselves Ukrainian in Ukraine? This assumes a certain monolithic view of both. For example, russians in Krasnodar region are different from russians in Karelia region, different from those in Moscow while they all fall under “russian”. The Karelians genetically may be closer to Finland than they are to Ukraine.

PP is arguing that Russia isn't committing genocide against Ukrainians. They do acknowledge that Russia is comitting crimes against humanity but think genocide isn't one of them on technical grounds because some of the victims are ethnic Russians.

We covered this already. Definitions of genocide include nationality in addition to religion, ethnicity, etc.