South Asian male applicants

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok. Here is some advice you can actually use. Forget HYPSM and most of the ivies, except maybe Cornell maybe. Don't count on these schools or waste your ED/SCEA card on them. You will most probably come up empty and frustrated

If you are able to
1) flag that you don't need aid. It makes a difference even if everybody tells you it doesn't. Once you get in, you can apply for aid for years 2-4. and reveal your real need. You are going to have to eat the first year cost to boost your chances. Don't submit any aid forms or Fafsa or anything else.
2) Target one of the following schools during the ED round: WashU, Emory, Vanderbilt, Uchicago, Duke, CMU, NYU but don't count on it
3) Avoid showing that your child wants to do CS, Econ, Engineering, business, pre-med. If possible tailor your app to highlight another major with his EC's
4) Have a backup plan for the state flagship. That's probably where he will most probably land.

Sorry. But that's the reality for the South Asian male today. It sucks, but it's what it is

#1 - What?!? If you don’t apply for financial aid at time of admission, particularly a need-aware college may choose not to consider any future aid requests for institutional grants, barring a significant change in circumstances. That’s a risky move that the colleges have already thought through. You still might get federal aid. But then what’s the point of this?

Aid decisions are made fresh every year based on Fafsa and college specific application. If you don't submit any docs first year, they willl make a fresh decision based on what you submit during Spring/Summer of freshman year for next year. That's how it's done in need blind colleges. They don't deny you aid one year because you didn't ask for aid the previous year. The key is not to submit any financial docs first year, if you are willing to eat the cost for a year to boost admission chances

But it does kick you out of any merit award considerations that often require you to have submitted a FAFSA. Those are usually awarded in the first year and carry through all 4.

Depends on the school. My DC got merit offers with no FAFSA about I know some schools require it. Also, FWIW, DC’s school said if they did not apply for FA first year, they would not get it the following 3 unless there was a major change.

If the DC doesn't submit a FAFSA, how do they know there was a major change from one year to the next?

You have to submit your employment and asset information from the prior year and the change and attest that they are accurate. It's not easy to fake. FAFSA is not the primary issue as they only offer grants to very, very low income and loans to others. The institutional profile (CSS) is where they make decisions about institution-based aid usually--and it's way more detailed. Sometimes results in a better financial aid agreement sometimes not. Much harder to hide assets on it.

Thanks - very helpful response. When I was in college, we only submitted FAFSA and the college used it to determine federal, state, and institutional aid. Vaguely remember gathering info from prior year. One year I had to submit a change request midyear due to a recession where my dad's hours were cut by 25%.

While I didn't work in the financial aid office, I did work in the business office, so I saw everyone's financial aid package on their statement (we kept paper files) and had a pretty good sense on how the sausage was made.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ok. Here is some advice you can actually use. Forget HYPSM and most of the ivies, except maybe Cornell maybe. Don't count on these schools or waste your ED/SCEA card on them. You will most probably come up empty and frustrated

If you are able to
1) flag that you don't need aid. It makes a difference even if everybody tells you it doesn't. Once you get in, you can apply for aid for years 2-4. and reveal your real need. You are going to have to eat the first year cost to boost your chances. Don't submit any aid forms or Fafsa or anything else.
2) Target one of the following schools during the ED round: WashU, Emory, Vanderbilt, Uchicago, Duke, CMU, NYU but don't count on it
3) Avoid showing that your child wants to do CS, Econ, Engineering, business, pre-med. If possible tailor your app to highlight another major with his EC's
4) Have a backup plan for the state flagship. That's probably where he will most probably land.

Sorry. But that's the reality for the South Asian male today. It sucks, but it's what it is

#1 seems pretty risky. B/SIL did it and worked out, but seems both risky and deceptive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any south Asian male student parents on? Or do any of you have any ideas of how the admission season is panning out for them? It is very tough in our school---south Asian boys even with very high stats and scores and good ECs did not get into ED. Worried parent of a South Asian male junior. Please no politics.

Do you understand that nearly all admissions decisions tend to be a lot more nuanced than just stats and test scores?

Do you also understand that a LOT of kids with very high stats and scores of all races and genders are having trouble gaining admission to their top choices?

OP here: Yes, I do. It is just hard(er) when a URM student whose parents are very well to do and who has lower stats and non spectacular ECs gets into a selective college and the South Asian student does not. We would have to be ostriches to deny this is happening. And I am talking about a South Asian applicant who has won hackathons and national competitions versus a candidate who has just participated in a school varsity sports teams and school clubs.
My child is still a junior so I am not talking about my student.

When the differences are obvious nuances kind of become irrelevant.

PP -- this Hackathon, national competion-winning applicant (and his parents) likely needed to broaden his view of "excellent" colleges -- go beyond the Top 20 US News National Universities. Post-pandemic admissions means that everyone needs to shift what could be the appropriate fit. Expect the worst in this process but be happy when it pleasantly surprises you.

Best advice in this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok. Here is some advice you can actually use. Forget HYPSM and most of the ivies, except maybe Cornell maybe. Don't count on these schools or waste your ED/SCEA card on them. You will most probably come up empty and frustrated

If you are able to
1) flag that you don't need aid. It makes a difference even if everybody tells you it doesn't. Once you get in, you can apply for aid for years 2-4. and reveal your real need. You are going to have to eat the first year cost to boost your chances. Don't submit any aid forms or Fafsa or anything else.
2) Target one of the following schools during the ED round: WashU, Emory, Vanderbilt, Uchicago, Duke, CMU, NYU but don't count on it
3) Avoid showing that your child wants to do CS, Econ, Engineering, business, pre-med. If possible tailor your app to highlight another major with his EC's
4) Have a backup plan for the state flagship. That's probably where he will most probably land.

Sorry. But that's the reality for the South Asian male today. It sucks, but it's what it is

#1 - What?!? If you don’t apply for financial aid at time of admission, particularly a need-aware college may choose not to consider any future aid requests for institutional grants, barring a significant change in circumstances. That’s a risky move that the colleges have already thought through. You still might get federal aid. But then what’s the point of this?

Aid decisions are made fresh every year based on Fafsa and college specific application. If you don't submit any docs first year, they willl make a fresh decision based on what you submit during Spring/Summer of freshman year for next year. That's how it's done in need blind colleges. They don't deny you aid one year because you didn't ask for aid the previous year. The key is not to submit any financial docs first year, if you are willing to eat the cost for a year to boost admission chances

But it does kick you out of any merit award considerations that often require you to have submitted a FAFSA. Those are usually awarded in the first year and carry through all 4.

Depends on the school. My DC got merit offers with no FAFSA about I know some schools require it. Also, FWIW, DC’s school said if they did not apply for FA first year, they would not get it the following 3 unless there was a major change.

If the DC doesn't submit a FAFSA, how do they know there was a major change from one year to the next?

You have to submit your employment and asset information from the prior year and the change and attest that they are accurate. It's not easy to fake. FAFSA is not the primary issue as they only offer grants to very, very low income and loans to others. The institutional profile (CSS) is where they make decisions about institution-based aid usually--and it's way more detailed. Sometimes results in a better financial aid agreement sometimes not. Much harder to hide assets on it.

Thanks - very helpful response. When I was in college, we only submitted FAFSA and the college used it to determine federal, state, and institutional aid. Vaguely remember gathering info from prior year. One year I had to submit a change request midyear due to a recession where my dad's hours were cut by 25%.

While I didn't work in the financial aid office, I did work in the business office, so I saw everyone's financial aid package on their statement (we kept paper files) and had a pretty good sense on how the sausage was made.

The other thing to know is that FAFSA uses Prior, Prior Year income now (so if your kid is starting Fall 2022, it will be based on your 2020 tax return) but present (at the moment filed) assets. But CSS profile also often asks for Prior Year (so 2021 return). So some people used to try to shift income down (e.g., credit a bonus later ) for the FAFSA, but now it's harder to do--and you'd have to do the income/asset 'gaming' strategies for longer to cover the years of college. CSS profile also asks for retirement account balances while FAFSA doesn't--and details on sibling's accounts etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok. Here is some advice you can actually use. Forget HYPSM and most of the ivies, except maybe Cornell maybe. Don't count on these schools or waste your ED/SCEA card on them. You will most probably come up empty and frustrated

If you are able to
1) flag that you don't need aid. It makes a difference even if everybody tells you it doesn't. Once you get in, you can apply for aid for years 2-4. and reveal your real need. You are going to have to eat the first year cost to boost your chances. Don't submit any aid forms or Fafsa or anything else.
2) Target one of the following schools during the ED round: WashU, Emory, Vanderbilt, Uchicago, Duke, CMU, NYU but don't count on it
3) Avoid showing that your child wants to do CS, Econ, Engineering, business, pre-med. If possible tailor your app to highlight another major with his EC's
4) Have a backup plan for the state flagship. That's probably where he will most probably land.

Sorry. But that's the reality for the South Asian male today. It sucks, but it's what it is

#1 - What?!? If you don’t apply for financial aid at time of admission, particularly a need-aware college may choose not to consider any future aid requests for institutional grants, barring a significant change in circumstances. That’s a risky move that the colleges have already thought through. You still might get federal aid. But then what’s the point of this?

Aid decisions are made fresh every year based on Fafsa and college specific application. If you don't submit any docs first year, they willl make a fresh decision based on what you submit during Spring/Summer of freshman year for next year. That's how it's done in need blind colleges. They don't deny you aid one year because you didn't ask for aid the previous year. The key is not to submit any financial docs first year, if you are willing to eat the cost for a year to boost admission chances

But it does kick you out of any merit award considerations that often require you to have submitted a FAFSA. Those are usually awarded in the first year and carry through all 4.

Depends on the school. My DC got merit offers with no FAFSA about I know some schools require it. Also, FWIW, DC’s school said if they did not apply for FA first year, they would not get it the following 3 unless there was a major change.

If the DC doesn't submit a FAFSA, how do they know there was a major change from one year to the next?

You have to submit your employment and asset information from the prior year and the change and attest that they are accurate. It's not easy to fake. FAFSA is not the primary issue as they only offer grants to very, very low income and loans to others. The institutional profile (CSS) is where they make decisions about institution-based aid usually--and it's way more detailed. Sometimes results in a better financial aid agreement sometimes not. Much harder to hide assets on it.

Thanks - very helpful response. When I was in college, we only submitted FAFSA and the college used it to determine federal, state, and institutional aid. Vaguely remember gathering info from prior year. One year I had to submit a change request midyear due to a recession where my dad's hours were cut by 25%.

While I didn't work in the financial aid office, I did work in the business office, so I saw everyone's financial aid package on their statement (we kept paper files) and had a pretty good sense on how the sausage was made.

The other thing to know is that FAFSA uses Prior, Prior Year income now (so if your kid is starting Fall 2022, it will be based on your 2020 tax return) but present (at the moment filed) assets. But CSS profile also often asks for Prior Year (so 2021 return). So some people used to try to shift income down (e.g., credit a bonus later ) for the FAFSA, but now it's harder to do--and you'd have to do the income/asset 'gaming' strategies for longer to cover the years of college. CSS profile also asks for retirement account balances while FAFSA doesn't--and details on sibling's accounts etc.

So many more requests. Well, my family didn't have any of that so it would not have been as time consuming.

FWIW, I appreciate the efforts to quell gaming strategies. The number of times folks would brag to me of how they got financial aid - you know the house they live in, the car they drive, etc and you're just trying to earn enough to cover your rent, pay down your bill, and pray your parents don't get laid off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians make up 5.9% of the US population. So they should make up 5.9% of the admissions at every university in order to be representative. Anything over that is overrepresentation.

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045221

Western countries represent 15% of global population. They control or own 60% of global assets. Anything over 15% is robbery and should be returned to other countries based on population. How 'bout you implement this first and come back for the 5.9% discussion?

Bravo!

Hmm. Why? Wealth creation isn't based on a fixed amount of wealth distributed across the globe so that you only get richer by effectively stealing from another country. It's about the production of goods and services. Western countries for a long time had the most liberal and advanced economies and that is why they are the wealthiest. Most wealth generated in western countries are produced in the West.

And, of course, people of non-western heritages are playing increasingly prominent roles in the Western industries (just look at big tech). Meanwhile, Western countries are increasingly offshoring industries to non-western countries (and stimulating the growth of their rich and middle classes).

Interestingly enough, if you genuinely want to get into a debate over mercantilist trading practices, the scourge is not the West but a certain massive East Asian nation and their brutal attitudes to trade treaties with developing countries......

Fair points. But if you look at the wealth controlled by England, France and Italy for example, it cannot be just explained by what they produce and export. It's what they "own". Most of that came from loot and plunder.

Yup. French vineyards. Looted and plundered and brought to France.

Do you seriously believe France's wealth is derived from just their wine exports?! It's less than $10 billion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NWIH

I want the doctor with the highest GPA, highest MCAT, and most prestigious residency to treat me or mine when there's a serious, life-threatening medical issue.

You're going to spend your life MAYBE getting the most talented doctor (or attorney or CPA or whatever) if you insist on criteria like that. Give me the 10th highest who has 2 decades of experience, is honest about her limitations, doesn't overindulge in alcohol, is willing to take the time to explain things thoroughly, has the utmost respect of the equally phenomenal team she works with, takes the time to stay informed of new advances, is a creative thinker, genuinely cares about my well-being, etc.

+1 highest MCAT, GPA is not the best doctor. Best information is their track record on your specific issue not prestige.

+2. Some of the best doctors I’ve worked with did not graduate at the top of their class.

+3 Some of those top academic docs end up in the research world where I encounter them regularly. Good heavens, they would be a nightmare doing actual patient care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NWIH

I want the doctor with the highest GPA, highest MCAT, and most prestigious residency to treat me or mine when there's a serious, life-threatening medical issue.

You're going to spend your life MAYBE getting the most talented doctor (or attorney or CPA or whatever) if you insist on criteria like that. Give me the 10th highest who has 2 decades of experience, is honest about her limitations, doesn't overindulge in alcohol, is willing to take the time to explain things thoroughly, has the utmost respect of the equally phenomenal team she works with, takes the time to stay informed of new advances, is a creative thinker, genuinely cares about my well-being, etc.

+1 highest MCAT, GPA is not the best doctor. Best information is their track record on your specific issue not prestige.

+2. Some of the best doctors I’ve worked with did not graduate at the top of their class.

+3 Some of those top academic docs end up in the research world where I encounter them regularly. Good heavens, they would be a nightmare doing actual patient care.

It's not an either or thing. Schools can demand excellent stats and make sure you have the personality traits to be a doctor, but to assume that people with great scores will be worse doctors than someone with mediocre scores( but under represented) is just silly.

Instead the woke brigade now gives a special pass to "some demographics" because without it, these kids don't stand a chance of getting in. When will it end? These same groups got a leg up in undergraduate admissions. Why do they need additional leg up in graduate admissions? If they can't cut it after four years of undergraduate boosting and preferences, I don't want them as my surgeon, just because medical schools want to be seen as diverse and inclusive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NWIH

I want the doctor with the highest GPA, highest MCAT, and most prestigious residency to treat me or mine when there's a serious, life-threatening medical issue.

You're going to spend your life MAYBE getting the most talented doctor (or attorney or CPA or whatever) if you insist on criteria like that. Give me the 10th highest who has 2 decades of experience, is honest about her limitations, doesn't overindulge in alcohol, is willing to take the time to explain things thoroughly, has the utmost respect of the equally phenomenal team she works with, takes the time to stay informed of new advances, is a creative thinker, genuinely cares about my well-being, etc.

+1 highest MCAT, GPA is not the best doctor. Best information is their track record on your specific issue not prestige.

+2. Some of the best doctors I’ve worked with did not graduate at the top of their class.

+3 Some of those top academic docs end up in the research world where I encounter them regularly. Good heavens, they would be a nightmare doing actual patient care.

It's not an either or thing. Schools can demand excellent stats and make sure you have the personality traits to be a doctor, but to assume that people with great scores will be worse doctors than someone with mediocre scores( but under represented) is just silly.

Instead the woke brigade now gives a special pass to "some demographics" because without it, these kids don't stand a chance of getting in. When will it end? These same groups got a leg up in undergraduate admissions. Why do they need additional leg up in graduate admissions? If they can't cut it after four years of undergraduate boosting and preferences, I don't want them as my surgeon, just because medical schools want to be seen as diverse and inclusive.

You have an extremely distorted view of how things work. Everyone has to meet the merit threshhold, it's after that point that diversity is sometimes considered.

[Anonymous]

Riiiggghhht

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Riiiggghhht

Take a look at the data--look at all the documentation from the Harvard lawsuits etc. (and Harvard is considered to be the least interested in 'stats'), look at the minimums for med school admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:South Asian parent here. South Asian boys certainly have to put in much effort than even a South Asian girl.

Oh, boo hoo hoo,. The real issue might be all these south Asian males are essentially robotic clones of each other and discerning individuality that might bring something of actual value to the cohort is hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NWIH

I want the doctor with the highest GPA, highest MCAT, and most prestigious residency to treat me or mine when there's a serious, life-threatening medical issue.

You're going to spend your life MAYBE getting the most talented doctor (or attorney or CPA or whatever) if you insist on criteria like that. Give me the 10th highest who has 2 decades of experience, is honest about her limitations, doesn't overindulge in alcohol, is willing to take the time to explain things thoroughly, has the utmost respect of the equally phenomenal team she works with, takes the time to stay informed of new advances, is a creative thinker, genuinely cares about my well-being, etc.

+1 highest MCAT, GPA is not the best doctor. Best information is their track record on your specific issue not prestige.

+2. Some of the best doctors I’ve worked with did not graduate at the top of their class.

+3 Some of those top academic docs end up in the research world where I encounter them regularly. Good heavens, they would be a nightmare doing actual patient care.

It's not an either or thing. Schools can demand excellent stats and make sure you have the personality traits to be a doctor, but to assume that people with great scores will be worse doctors than someone with mediocre scores( but under represented) is just silly.

Instead the woke brigade now gives a special pass to "some demographics" because without it, these kids don't stand a chance of getting in. When will it end? These same groups got a leg up in undergraduate admissions. Why do they need additional leg up in graduate admissions? If they can't cut it after four years of undergraduate boosting and preferences, I don't want them as my surgeon, just because medical schools want to be seen as diverse and inclusive.

You have an extremely distorted view of how things work. Everyone has to meet the merit threshhold, it's after that point that diversity is sometimes considered.

+1. The arrogance of these statements that these boys are inherently superior because of some metrics and therefore wronged is simultaneously racist (really? you don't think black and Hispanic students are as smart?) and misplaced (metrics are not the best indicator of ability).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:South Asian parent here. South Asian boys certainly have to put in much effort than even a South Asian girl.

Oh, boo hoo hoo,. The real issue might be all these south Asian males are essentially robotic clones of each other and discerning individuality that might bring something of actual value to the cohort is hard.

Imagine saying this about any other race.

This is horribly racist, pp.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:South Asian parent here. South Asian boys certainly have to put in much effort than even a South Asian girl.

Oh, boo hoo hoo,. The real issue might be all these south Asian males are essentially robotic clones of each other and discerning individuality that might bring something of actual value to the cohort is hard.

This is so true. The main competition for South Asian boys is other South Asian boys. Many of them tend to take the same classes and extracurriculars. Those who get in are happy and those that don't complain. I doubt it makes any difference to the admission councils since they all seem the same.