Reflections on the "TJ Papers"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Then why are we having this argument about removing a test that focused on advanced math techniques and discussing the number of students who need “remedial” math? It is totally fine to let in students who demonstrate STEM ability but not acceleration in math. Even desirable. Of course students who are math geniuses should also be admitted. But I am not sure math acceleration is the way to identify that talent.

The problem now is that the math geniuses are not being identified and admitted. The current admissions process is so sparse that all above average kids look more or less the same. Removing the Quant test is just another way that the math geniuses were not identified. The number of students who need "remedial" math would be fine if those kids demonstrated high level STEM ability in other areas. They did not do so. There was nothing in the application to allow them to do so.

Again, no one has suggested looking at math acceleration as the only factor in identifying extreme math talent. Math acceleration + grades in these higher level math classes + teacher recommendations + math awards/achievements in math extracurriculars is what you'd use to identify extreme math talent. I'd be very suspicious of a kid who was highly accelerated and got As, but had no notable math achievements and a meh teacher recommendation.

Previous poster doesn’t understand the point of the Quant-Q or why the prep programs basically made it a pointless exam.

My DC is in the class of 2022. DC didn’t do one second of preparation and I certainly did not pay for a prep class. Plus sometime I feel that the prep class angle is over played. Those showing a desire to put in extra work in whatever it is (sports trainers, tutors, outside classes/camps in a particular subject, street play, etc) should count for something. When it comes to education we should be intervening in the early years not creating policy to adjust for our inability to create a more diverse student body from early on.

Additionally, the highlighted piece is a false choice. We can do both things until we reach the point where the structural challenges no longer exist.

#schoolchoice

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Then why are we having this argument about removing a test that focused on advanced math techniques and discussing the number of students who need “remedial” math? It is totally fine to let in students who demonstrate STEM ability but not acceleration in math. Even desirable. Of course students who are math geniuses should also be admitted. But I am not sure math acceleration is the way to identify that talent.

The problem now is that the math geniuses are not being identified and admitted. The current admissions process is so sparse that all above average kids look more or less the same. Removing the Quant test is just another way that the math geniuses were not identified. The number of students who need "remedial" math would be fine if those kids demonstrated high level STEM ability in other areas. They did not do so. There was nothing in the application to allow them to do so.

Again, no one has suggested looking at math acceleration as the only factor in identifying extreme math talent. Math acceleration + grades in these higher level math classes + teacher recommendations + math awards/achievements in math extracurriculars is what you'd use to identify extreme math talent. I'd be very suspicious of a kid who was highly accelerated and got As, but had no notable math achievements and a meh teacher recommendation.

Previous poster doesn’t understand the point of the Quant-Q or why the prep programs basically made it a pointless exam.

My DC is in the class of 2022. DC didn’t do one second of preparation and I certainly did not pay for a prep class. Plus sometime I feel that the prep class angle is over played. Those showing a desire to put in extra work in whatever it is (sports trainers, tutors, outside classes/camps in a particular subject, street play, etc) should count for something. When it comes to education we should be intervening in the early years not creating policy to adjust for our inability to create a more diverse student body from early on.

It's a red herring. Sure some kids "prepped". But the vast majority of students under previous admission system were simply just smart kids. TJ produces hundreds of national merit semi-finalists. They represents top students in STEM nationally. They went on to perform well in colleges and grad schools. You can't "prep" that. If the "prep" was so easy to do, the rich white parents wouldn't have paid hundreds of thousands to cheat on SATs as varsity blues showed.

The bolded is correct - but there were also hundreds of other kids who were every bit as smart - or smarter - who got leapfrogged because they were competing with kids who walked into an exam designed to test your native problem-solving ability with techniques that were handed to them at a cost of $5K or more to their family. And it was a timed exam where being able to figure out the problems quickly was of tremendous advantage.

No one actually believes this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Then why are we having this argument about removing a test that focused on advanced math techniques and discussing the number of students who need “remedial” math? It is totally fine to let in students who demonstrate STEM ability but not acceleration in math. Even desirable. Of course students who are math geniuses should also be admitted. But I am not sure math acceleration is the way to identify that talent.

The problem now is that the math geniuses are not being identified and admitted. The current admissions process is so sparse that all above average kids look more or less the same. Removing the Quant test is just another way that the math geniuses were not identified. The number of students who need "remedial" math would be fine if those kids demonstrated high level STEM ability in other areas. They did not do so. There was nothing in the application to allow them to do so.

Again, no one has suggested looking at math acceleration as the only factor in identifying extreme math talent. Math acceleration + grades in these higher level math classes + teacher recommendations + math awards/achievements in math extracurriculars is what you'd use to identify extreme math talent. I'd be very suspicious of a kid who was highly accelerated and got As, but had no notable math achievements and a meh teacher recommendation.

Previous poster doesn’t understand the point of the Quant-Q or why the prep programs basically made it a pointless exam.

My DC is in the class of 2022. DC didn’t do one second of preparation and I certainly did not pay for a prep class. Plus sometime I feel that the prep class angle is over played. Those showing a desire to put in extra work in whatever it is (sports trainers, tutors, outside classes/camps in a particular subject, street play, etc) should count for something. When it comes to education we should be intervening in the early years not creating policy to adjust for our inability to create a more diverse student body from early on.

It's a red herring. Sure some kids "prepped". But the vast majority of students under previous admission system were simply just smart kids. TJ produces hundreds of national merit semi-finalists. They represents top students in STEM nationally. They went on to perform well in colleges and grad schools. You can't "prep" that. If the "prep" was so easy to do, the rich white parents wouldn't have paid hundreds of thousands to cheat on SATs as varsity blues showed.

The bolded is correct - but there were also hundreds of other kids who were every bit as smart - or smarter - who got leapfrogged because they were competing with kids who walked into an exam designed to test your native problem-solving ability with techniques that were handed to them at a cost of $5K or more to their family. And it was a timed exam where being able to figure out the problems quickly was of tremendous advantage.

FCPS is 100% to blame for that. They knew that was exactly going to happen, but they didn't care to provide that prep to those kids who didn't have the money, awareness, or even access to information. Where were the after school prep programs to help teach them problem solving skills? Were any practice materials even handed out at school? If they wanted to actually help, they would have put $$ instead of empty words. Let's face it, FCPS doesn't give a hoot about minority students applying to TJ.

The admissions process provided links to free prep for the two ACT exams, but the makers of the Quant-Q force anyone who sees it to sign an NDA. So no, FCPS could not provide any sort of free practice materials or prep to the end of improving performance on the Quant-Q. And besides, the purpose of that exam is to test how well and quickly student can identify a complex problem that they haven't seen before and develop a solution for it. When the prep programs got hold of the questions from their previous students, they then charged huge amounts of money to parents so that they could teach students how to solve those problems - making the Quant-Q a pointless exam.

If you go into the Quant-Q already knowing how to solve the types of problems that are on the Quant-Q, it ceases to have any value. It's designed for students to have to struggle with it.

Whre is the proof?

The proof is in the form of students who posted on a forum called TJ Vents on Facebook back in August of 2020. They are members of the Class of 2023 and 2024 whose names appeared on Curie's lists of successful TJ applicants who confirmed in the comment thread of a related post that they were surprised to see questions on the Quant-Q when they took it that they had seen before in their classes at Curie.

The original post was the first public expression of Curie's impact on the TJ admissions process, which was a well-known secret among TJ's South Asian community until a student posted the original anonymous vent.

Dat ain't no proof. GTFO.

I mean, the students at TJ accept it as proof. They believe their colleagues and actually congratulated them on their bravery.

This is fake news. If there was any truth this it would have come up in the lawsuit. FCPS never raised this as a reason the admissions process was changed. Nowhere in the record, the briefs, the TJ papers, etc. does anybody every state they believe Curie had acquired the Quant-Q questions or questions that showed up on the actual TJ test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Then why are we having this argument about removing a test that focused on advanced math techniques and discussing the number of students who need “remedial” math? It is totally fine to let in students who demonstrate STEM ability but not acceleration in math. Even desirable. Of course students who are math geniuses should also be admitted. But I am not sure math acceleration is the way to identify that talent.

The problem now is that the math geniuses are not being identified and admitted. The current admissions process is so sparse that all above average kids look more or less the same. Removing the Quant test is just another way that the math geniuses were not identified. The number of students who need "remedial" math would be fine if those kids demonstrated high level STEM ability in other areas. They did not do so. There was nothing in the application to allow them to do so.

Again, no one has suggested looking at math acceleration as the only factor in identifying extreme math talent. Math acceleration + grades in these higher level math classes + teacher recommendations + math awards/achievements in math extracurriculars is what you'd use to identify extreme math talent. I'd be very suspicious of a kid who was highly accelerated and got As, but had no notable math achievements and a meh teacher recommendation.

Previous poster doesn’t understand the point of the Quant-Q or why the prep programs basically made it a pointless exam.

My DC is in the class of 2022. DC didn’t do one second of preparation and I certainly did not pay for a prep class. Plus sometime I feel that the prep class angle is over played. Those showing a desire to put in extra work in whatever it is (sports trainers, tutors, outside classes/camps in a particular subject, street play, etc) should count for something. When it comes to education we should be intervening in the early years not creating policy to adjust for our inability to create a more diverse student body from early on.

It's a red herring. Sure some kids "prepped". But the vast majority of students under previous admission system were simply just smart kids. TJ produces hundreds of national merit semi-finalists. They represents top students in STEM nationally. They went on to perform well in colleges and grad schools. You can't "prep" that. If the "prep" was so easy to do, the rich white parents wouldn't have paid hundreds of thousands to cheat on SATs as varsity blues showed.

The bolded is correct - but there were also hundreds of other kids who were every bit as smart - or smarter - who got leapfrogged because they were competing with kids who walked into an exam designed to test your native problem-solving ability with techniques that were handed to them at a cost of $5K or more to their family. And it was a timed exam where being able to figure out the problems quickly was of tremendous advantage.

FCPS is 100% to blame for that. They knew that was exactly going to happen, but they didn't care to provide that prep to those kids who didn't have the money, awareness, or even access to information. Where were the after school prep programs to help teach them problem solving skills? Were any practice materials even handed out at school? If they wanted to actually help, they would have put $$ instead of empty words. Let's face it, FCPS doesn't give a hoot about minority students applying to TJ.

The admissions process provided links to free prep for the two ACT exams, but the makers of the Quant-Q force anyone who sees it to sign an NDA. So no, FCPS could not provide any sort of free practice materials or prep to the end of improving performance on the Quant-Q. And besides, the purpose of that exam is to test how well and quickly student can identify a complex problem that they haven't seen before and develop a solution for it. When the prep programs got hold of the questions from their previous students, they then charged huge amounts of money to parents so that they could teach students how to solve those problems - making the Quant-Q a pointless exam.

If you go into the Quant-Q already knowing how to solve the types of problems that are on the Quant-Q, it ceases to have any value. It's designed for students to have to struggle with it.

Whre is the proof?

The proof is in the form of students who posted on a forum called TJ Vents on Facebook back in August of 2020. They are members of the Class of 2023 and 2024 whose names appeared on Curie's lists of successful TJ applicants who confirmed in the comment thread of a related post that they were surprised to see questions on the Quant-Q when they took it that they had seen before in their classes at Curie.

The original post was the first public expression of Curie's impact on the TJ admissions process, which was a well-known secret among TJ's South Asian community until a student posted the original anonymous vent.

Dat ain't no proof. GTFO.

I mean, the students at TJ accept it as proof. They believe their colleagues and actually congratulated them on their bravery.

This is fake news. If there was any truth this it would have come up in the lawsuit. FCPS never raised this as a reason the admissions process was changed. Nowhere in the record, the briefs, the TJ papers, etc. does anybody every state they believe Curie had acquired the Quant-Q questions or questions that showed up on the actual TJ test.

Denial. It’s not just a river in Egypt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Then why are we having this argument about removing a test that focused on advanced math techniques and discussing the number of students who need “remedial” math? It is totally fine to let in students who demonstrate STEM ability but not acceleration in math. Even desirable. Of course students who are math geniuses should also be admitted. But I am not sure math acceleration is the way to identify that talent.

The problem now is that the math geniuses are not being identified and admitted. The current admissions process is so sparse that all above average kids look more or less the same. Removing the Quant test is just another way that the math geniuses were not identified. The number of students who need "remedial" math would be fine if those kids demonstrated high level STEM ability in other areas. They did not do so. There was nothing in the application to allow them to do so.

Again, no one has suggested looking at math acceleration as the only factor in identifying extreme math talent. Math acceleration + grades in these higher level math classes + teacher recommendations + math awards/achievements in math extracurriculars is what you'd use to identify extreme math talent. I'd be very suspicious of a kid who was highly accelerated and got As, but had no notable math achievements and a meh teacher recommendation.

Previous poster doesn’t understand the point of the Quant-Q or why the prep programs basically made it a pointless exam.

My DC is in the class of 2022. DC didn’t do one second of preparation and I certainly did not pay for a prep class. Plus sometime I feel that the prep class angle is over played. Those showing a desire to put in extra work in whatever it is (sports trainers, tutors, outside classes/camps in a particular subject, street play, etc) should count for something. When it comes to education we should be intervening in the early years not creating policy to adjust for our inability to create a more diverse student body from early on.

It's a red herring. Sure some kids "prepped". But the vast majority of students under previous admission system were simply just smart kids. TJ produces hundreds of national merit semi-finalists. They represents top students in STEM nationally. They went on to perform well in colleges and grad schools. You can't "prep" that. If the "prep" was so easy to do, the rich white parents wouldn't have paid hundreds of thousands to cheat on SATs as varsity blues showed.

The bolded is correct - but there were also hundreds of other kids who were every bit as smart - or smarter - who got leapfrogged because they were competing with kids who walked into an exam designed to test your native problem-solving ability with techniques that were handed to them at a cost of $5K or more to their family. And it was a timed exam where being able to figure out the problems quickly was of tremendous advantage.

FCPS is 100% to blame for that. They knew that was exactly going to happen, but they didn't care to provide that prep to those kids who didn't have the money, awareness, or even access to information. Where were the after school prep programs to help teach them problem solving skills? Were any practice materials even handed out at school? If they wanted to actually help, they would have put $$ instead of empty words. Let's face it, FCPS doesn't give a hoot about minority students applying to TJ.

The admissions process provided links to free prep for the two ACT exams, but the makers of the Quant-Q force anyone who sees it to sign an NDA. So no, FCPS could not provide any sort of free practice materials or prep to the end of improving performance on the Quant-Q. And besides, the purpose of that exam is to test how well and quickly student can identify a complex problem that they haven't seen before and develop a solution for it. When the prep programs got hold of the questions from their previous students, they then charged huge amounts of money to parents so that they could teach students how to solve those problems - making the Quant-Q a pointless exam.

If you go into the Quant-Q already knowing how to solve the types of problems that are on the Quant-Q, it ceases to have any value. It's designed for students to have to struggle with it.

You are incorrect on many counts: First, you are contradicting yourself when you claim that the exam tested how 'well and quickly' students perform on it, then go on to say 'students have to struggle with it'. So which is it? Next, it is futile to blame prep programs who will always be in the business of selling prep until the end of time; that is what they do. But where is the accountability on FCPS's part for making a very stupid decision to award money to a shill company to create a preppable test along with NDAs that limit access to it? The fact that they have NDAs in place means the test was designed to be preppable, duh! Instead if FCPS was smart, they would have looked internally to their best teachers (i.e V.W and others), and formed a team that could build a challenging test and saved a ton of money in the process. In fact it is extremely easy to create a test that is unpreppable, without any advanced math beyond algebra and a bit of basic geometry. I can easily make a test where the average is around a 0 (out of 100), with the property that all of the questions involve problem solving and reasoning using basic ideas from algebra and geometry. The prep companies can prep all they want, but they will not be able to improve scores on students who rely on memorization and regurgitation. Finally, show me a single strand of evidence proving that FCPS cares about developing the problem solving skills of the underprivileged minority students so they can compete with the rest of the privileged kids in regards to TJ. There is nothing.

Good points. They could have and still can develop a better test. And communicate better so that more people know about it. They didn't because they fear that the results will still be the same. I actually think the board underestimate black and Hispanic kids, which is sad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Then why are we having this argument about removing a test that focused on advanced math techniques and discussing the number of students who need “remedial” math? It is totally fine to let in students who demonstrate STEM ability but not acceleration in math. Even desirable. Of course students who are math geniuses should also be admitted. But I am not sure math acceleration is the way to identify that talent.

The problem now is that the math geniuses are not being identified and admitted. The current admissions process is so sparse that all above average kids look more or less the same. Removing the Quant test is just another way that the math geniuses were not identified. The number of students who need "remedial" math would be fine if those kids demonstrated high level STEM ability in other areas. They did not do so. There was nothing in the application to allow them to do so.

Again, no one has suggested looking at math acceleration as the only factor in identifying extreme math talent. Math acceleration + grades in these higher level math classes + teacher recommendations + math awards/achievements in math extracurriculars is what you'd use to identify extreme math talent. I'd be very suspicious of a kid who was highly accelerated and got As, but had no notable math achievements and a meh teacher recommendation.

Previous poster doesn’t understand the point of the Quant-Q or why the prep programs basically made it a pointless exam.

My DC is in the class of 2022. DC didn’t do one second of preparation and I certainly did not pay for a prep class. Plus sometime I feel that the prep class angle is over played. Those showing a desire to put in extra work in whatever it is (sports trainers, tutors, outside classes/camps in a particular subject, street play, etc) should count for something. When it comes to education we should be intervening in the early years not creating policy to adjust for our inability to create a more diverse student body from early on.

It's a red herring. Sure some kids "prepped". But the vast majority of students under previous admission system were simply just smart kids. TJ produces hundreds of national merit semi-finalists. They represents top students in STEM nationally. They went on to perform well in colleges and grad schools. You can't "prep" that. If the "prep" was so easy to do, the rich white parents wouldn't have paid hundreds of thousands to cheat on SATs as varsity blues showed.

The bolded is correct - but there were also hundreds of other kids who were every bit as smart - or smarter - who got leapfrogged because they were competing with kids who walked into an exam designed to test your native problem-solving ability with techniques that were handed to them at a cost of $5K or more to their family. And it was a timed exam where being able to figure out the problems quickly was of tremendous advantage.

FCPS is 100% to blame for that. They knew that was exactly going to happen, but they didn't care to provide that prep to those kids who didn't have the money, awareness, or even access to information. Where were the after school prep programs to help teach them problem solving skills? Were any practice materials even handed out at school? If they wanted to actually help, they would have put $$ instead of empty words. Let's face it, FCPS doesn't give a hoot about minority students applying to TJ.

The admissions process provided links to free prep for the two ACT exams, but the makers of the Quant-Q force anyone who sees it to sign an NDA. So no, FCPS could not provide any sort of free practice materials or prep to the end of improving performance on the Quant-Q. And besides, the purpose of that exam is to test how well and quickly student can identify a complex problem that they haven't seen before and develop a solution for it. When the prep programs got hold of the questions from their previous students, they then charged huge amounts of money to parents so that they could teach students how to solve those problems - making the Quant-Q a pointless exam.

If you go into the Quant-Q already knowing how to solve the types of problems that are on the Quant-Q, it ceases to have any value. It's designed for students to have to struggle with it.

Whre is the proof?

The proof is in the form of students who posted on a forum called TJ Vents on Facebook back in August of 2020. They are members of the Class of 2023 and 2024 whose names appeared on Curie's lists of successful TJ applicants who confirmed in the comment thread of a related post that they were surprised to see questions on the Quant-Q when they took it that they had seen before in their classes at Curie.

The original post was the first public expression of Curie's impact on the TJ admissions process, which was a well-known secret among TJ's South Asian community until a student posted the original anonymous vent.

Dat ain't no proof. GTFO.

I mean, the students at TJ accept it as proof. They believe their colleagues and actually congratulated them on their bravery.

This is fake news. If there was any truth this it would have come up in the lawsuit. FCPS never raised this as a reason the admissions process was changed. Nowhere in the record, the briefs, the TJ papers, etc. does anybody every state they believe Curie had acquired the Quant-Q questions or questions that showed up on the actual TJ test.

Denial. It’s not just a river in Egypt.

I will never understand why FCPS did not pursue the Curie cheating scandal. They had first and last names. They had kids stating that they saw the test ahead of time.

I wonder if there was some kind of pay-to-play going on internally within FCPS and they did not want to embarrass/expose their own staff? Or possibly the company that they fired threatened to sue if they embarrassed them?

Whatever the reasons, the FCPS lawyers clearly gave terrible advice during the admissions “reform” process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Then why are we having this argument about removing a test that focused on advanced math techniques and discussing the number of students who need “remedial” math? It is totally fine to let in students who demonstrate STEM ability but not acceleration in math. Even desirable. Of course students who are math geniuses should also be admitted. But I am not sure math acceleration is the way to identify that talent.

The problem now is that the math geniuses are not being identified and admitted. The current admissions process is so sparse that all above average kids look more or less the same. Removing the Quant test is just another way that the math geniuses were not identified. The number of students who need "remedial" math would be fine if those kids demonstrated high level STEM ability in other areas. They did not do so. There was nothing in the application to allow them to do so.

Again, no one has suggested looking at math acceleration as the only factor in identifying extreme math talent. Math acceleration + grades in these higher level math classes + teacher recommendations + math awards/achievements in math extracurriculars is what you'd use to identify extreme math talent. I'd be very suspicious of a kid who was highly accelerated and got As, but had no notable math achievements and a meh teacher recommendation.

Previous poster doesn’t understand the point of the Quant-Q or why the prep programs basically made it a pointless exam.

My DC is in the class of 2022. DC didn’t do one second of preparation and I certainly did not pay for a prep class. Plus sometime I feel that the prep class angle is over played. Those showing a desire to put in extra work in whatever it is (sports trainers, tutors, outside classes/camps in a particular subject, street play, etc) should count for something. When it comes to education we should be intervening in the early years not creating policy to adjust for our inability to create a more diverse student body from early on.

It's a red herring. Sure some kids "prepped". But the vast majority of students under previous admission system were simply just smart kids. TJ produces hundreds of national merit semi-finalists. They represents top students in STEM nationally. They went on to perform well in colleges and grad schools. You can't "prep" that. If the "prep" was so easy to do, the rich white parents wouldn't have paid hundreds of thousands to cheat on SATs as varsity blues showed.

The bolded is correct - but there were also hundreds of other kids who were every bit as smart - or smarter - who got leapfrogged because they were competing with kids who walked into an exam designed to test your native problem-solving ability with techniques that were handed to them at a cost of $5K or more to their family. And it was a timed exam where being able to figure out the problems quickly was of tremendous advantage.

FCPS is 100% to blame for that. They knew that was exactly going to happen, but they didn't care to provide that prep to those kids who didn't have the money, awareness, or even access to information. Where were the after school prep programs to help teach them problem solving skills? Were any practice materials even handed out at school? If they wanted to actually help, they would have put $$ instead of empty words. Let's face it, FCPS doesn't give a hoot about minority students applying to TJ.

The admissions process provided links to free prep for the two ACT exams, but the makers of the Quant-Q force anyone who sees it to sign an NDA. So no, FCPS could not provide any sort of free practice materials or prep to the end of improving performance on the Quant-Q. And besides, the purpose of that exam is to test how well and quickly student can identify a complex problem that they haven't seen before and develop a solution for it. When the prep programs got hold of the questions from their previous students, they then charged huge amounts of money to parents so that they could teach students how to solve those problems - making the Quant-Q a pointless exam.

If you go into the Quant-Q already knowing how to solve the types of problems that are on the Quant-Q, it ceases to have any value. It's designed for students to have to struggle with it.

You are incorrect on many counts: First, you are contradicting yourself when you claim that the exam tested how 'well and quickly' students perform on it, then go on to say 'students have to struggle with it'. So which is it? Next, it is futile to blame prep programs who will always be in the business of selling prep until the end of time; that is what they do. But where is the accountability on FCPS's part for making a very stupid decision to award money to a shill company to create a preppable test along with NDAs that limit access to it? The fact that they have NDAs in place means the test was designed to be preppable, duh! Instead if FCPS was smart, they would have looked internally to their best teachers (i.e V.W and others), and formed a team that could build a challenging test and saved a ton of money in the process. In fact it is extremely easy to create a test that is unpreppable, without any advanced math beyond algebra and a bit of basic geometry. I can easily make a test where the average is around a 0 (out of 100), with the property that all of the questions involve problem solving and reasoning using basic ideas from algebra and geometry. The prep companies can prep all they want, but they will not be able to improve scores on students who rely on memorization and regurgitation. Finally, show me a single strand of evidence proving that FCPS cares about developing the problem solving skills of the underprivileged minority students so they can compete with the rest of the privileged kids in regards to TJ. There is nothing.

Good points. They could have and still can develop a better test. And communicate better so that more people know about it. They didn't because they fear that the results will still be the same. I actually think the board underestimate black and Hispanic kids, which is sad.

It's disrespect. If I was an underprivileged minority, I would feel disrespected with the lack of support given to minorities because FCPS believe the money would be wasted and it wouldn't change anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Then why are we having this argument about removing a test that focused on advanced math techniques and discussing the number of students who need “remedial” math? It is totally fine to let in students who demonstrate STEM ability but not acceleration in math. Even desirable. Of course students who are math geniuses should also be admitted. But I am not sure math acceleration is the way to identify that talent.

The problem now is that the math geniuses are not being identified and admitted. The current admissions process is so sparse that all above average kids look more or less the same. Removing the Quant test is just another way that the math geniuses were not identified. The number of students who need "remedial" math would be fine if those kids demonstrated high level STEM ability in other areas. They did not do so. There was nothing in the application to allow them to do so.

Again, no one has suggested looking at math acceleration as the only factor in identifying extreme math talent. Math acceleration + grades in these higher level math classes + teacher recommendations + math awards/achievements in math extracurriculars is what you'd use to identify extreme math talent. I'd be very suspicious of a kid who was highly accelerated and got As, but had no notable math achievements and a meh teacher recommendation.

Previous poster doesn’t understand the point of the Quant-Q or why the prep programs basically made it a pointless exam.

My DC is in the class of 2022. DC didn’t do one second of preparation and I certainly did not pay for a prep class. Plus sometime I feel that the prep class angle is over played. Those showing a desire to put in extra work in whatever it is (sports trainers, tutors, outside classes/camps in a particular subject, street play, etc) should count for something. When it comes to education we should be intervening in the early years not creating policy to adjust for our inability to create a more diverse student body from early on.

It's a red herring. Sure some kids "prepped". But the vast majority of students under previous admission system were simply just smart kids. TJ produces hundreds of national merit semi-finalists. They represents top students in STEM nationally. They went on to perform well in colleges and grad schools. You can't "prep" that. If the "prep" was so easy to do, the rich white parents wouldn't have paid hundreds of thousands to cheat on SATs as varsity blues showed.

The bolded is correct - but there were also hundreds of other kids who were every bit as smart - or smarter - who got leapfrogged because they were competing with kids who walked into an exam designed to test your native problem-solving ability with techniques that were handed to them at a cost of $5K or more to their family. And it was a timed exam where being able to figure out the problems quickly was of tremendous advantage.

FCPS is 100% to blame for that. They knew that was exactly going to happen, but they didn't care to provide that prep to those kids who didn't have the money, awareness, or even access to information. Where were the after school prep programs to help teach them problem solving skills? Were any practice materials even handed out at school? If they wanted to actually help, they would have put $$ instead of empty words. Let's face it, FCPS doesn't give a hoot about minority students applying to TJ.

The admissions process provided links to free prep for the two ACT exams, but the makers of the Quant-Q force anyone who sees it to sign an NDA. So no, FCPS could not provide any sort of free practice materials or prep to the end of improving performance on the Quant-Q. And besides, the purpose of that exam is to test how well and quickly student can identify a complex problem that they haven't seen before and develop a solution for it. When the prep programs got hold of the questions from their previous students, they then charged huge amounts of money to parents so that they could teach students how to solve those problems - making the Quant-Q a pointless exam.

If you go into the Quant-Q already knowing how to solve the types of problems that are on the Quant-Q, it ceases to have any value. It's designed for students to have to struggle with it.

Whre is the proof?

The proof is in the form of students who posted on a forum called TJ Vents on Facebook back in August of 2020. They are members of the Class of 2023 and 2024 whose names appeared on Curie's lists of successful TJ applicants who confirmed in the comment thread of a related post that they were surprised to see questions on the Quant-Q when they took it that they had seen before in their classes at Curie.

The original post was the first public expression of Curie's impact on the TJ admissions process, which was a well-known secret among TJ's South Asian community until a student posted the original anonymous vent.

Dat ain't no proof. GTFO.

I mean, the students at TJ accept it as proof. They believe their colleagues and actually congratulated them on their bravery.

This is fake news. If there was any truth this it would have come up in the lawsuit. FCPS never raised this as a reason the admissions process was changed. Nowhere in the record, the briefs, the TJ papers, etc. does anybody every state they believe Curie had acquired the Quant-Q questions or questions that showed up on the actual TJ test.

Denial. It’s not just a river in Egypt.

I will never understand why FCPS did not pursue the Curie cheating scandal. They had first and last names. They had kids stating that they saw the test ahead of time.

I wonder if there was some kind of pay-to-play going on internally within FCPS and they did not want to embarrass/expose their own staff? Or possibly the company that they fired threatened to sue if they embarrassed them?

Whatever the reasons, the FCPS lawyers clearly gave terrible advice during the admissions “reform” process.

Or, and far more likely, they looked into it and there was nothing there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Then why are we having this argument about removing a test that focused on advanced math techniques and discussing the number of students who need “remedial” math? It is totally fine to let in students who demonstrate STEM ability but not acceleration in math. Even desirable. Of course students who are math geniuses should also be admitted. But I am not sure math acceleration is the way to identify that talent.

The problem now is that the math geniuses are not being identified and admitted. The current admissions process is so sparse that all above average kids look more or less the same. Removing the Quant test is just another way that the math geniuses were not identified. The number of students who need "remedial" math would be fine if those kids demonstrated high level STEM ability in other areas. They did not do so. There was nothing in the application to allow them to do so.

Again, no one has suggested looking at math acceleration as the only factor in identifying extreme math talent. Math acceleration + grades in these higher level math classes + teacher recommendations + math awards/achievements in math extracurriculars is what you'd use to identify extreme math talent. I'd be very suspicious of a kid who was highly accelerated and got As, but had no notable math achievements and a meh teacher recommendation.

Previous poster doesn’t understand the point of the Quant-Q or why the prep programs basically made it a pointless exam.

My DC is in the class of 2022. DC didn’t do one second of preparation and I certainly did not pay for a prep class. Plus sometime I feel that the prep class angle is over played. Those showing a desire to put in extra work in whatever it is (sports trainers, tutors, outside classes/camps in a particular subject, street play, etc) should count for something. When it comes to education we should be intervening in the early years not creating policy to adjust for our inability to create a more diverse student body from early on.

It's a red herring. Sure some kids "prepped". But the vast majority of students under previous admission system were simply just smart kids. TJ produces hundreds of national merit semi-finalists. They represents top students in STEM nationally. They went on to perform well in colleges and grad schools. You can't "prep" that. If the "prep" was so easy to do, the rich white parents wouldn't have paid hundreds of thousands to cheat on SATs as varsity blues showed.

The bolded is correct - but there were also hundreds of other kids who were every bit as smart - or smarter - who got leapfrogged because they were competing with kids who walked into an exam designed to test your native problem-solving ability with techniques that were handed to them at a cost of $5K or more to their family. And it was a timed exam where being able to figure out the problems quickly was of tremendous advantage.

FCPS is 100% to blame for that. They knew that was exactly going to happen, but they didn't care to provide that prep to those kids who didn't have the money, awareness, or even access to information. Where were the after school prep programs to help teach them problem solving skills? Were any practice materials even handed out at school? If they wanted to actually help, they would have put $$ instead of empty words. Let's face it, FCPS doesn't give a hoot about minority students applying to TJ.

The admissions process provided links to free prep for the two ACT exams, but the makers of the Quant-Q force anyone who sees it to sign an NDA. So no, FCPS could not provide any sort of free practice materials or prep to the end of improving performance on the Quant-Q. And besides, the purpose of that exam is to test how well and quickly student can identify a complex problem that they haven't seen before and develop a solution for it. When the prep programs got hold of the questions from their previous students, they then charged huge amounts of money to parents so that they could teach students how to solve those problems - making the Quant-Q a pointless exam.

If you go into the Quant-Q already knowing how to solve the types of problems that are on the Quant-Q, it ceases to have any value. It's designed for students to have to struggle with it.

Whre is the proof?

The proof is in the form of students who posted on a forum called TJ Vents on Facebook back in August of 2020. They are members of the Class of 2023 and 2024 whose names appeared on Curie's lists of successful TJ applicants who confirmed in the comment thread of a related post that they were surprised to see questions on the Quant-Q when they took it that they had seen before in their classes at Curie.

The original post was the first public expression of Curie's impact on the TJ admissions process, which was a well-known secret among TJ's South Asian community until a student posted the original anonymous vent.

Dat ain't no proof. GTFO.

I mean, the students at TJ accept it as proof. They believe their colleagues and actually congratulated them on their bravery.

This is fake news. If there was any truth this it would have come up in the lawsuit. FCPS never raised this as a reason the admissions process was changed. Nowhere in the record, the briefs, the TJ papers, etc. does anybody every state they believe Curie had acquired the Quant-Q questions or questions that showed up on the actual TJ test.

Denial. It’s not just a river in Egypt.

Again, if there was truth to any of this it would have been used by FCPS in defense of the admissions changes. Point to one person that publicly states that they saw the same questions at Curie and on test day. You keep pointing to some anonymous Facebook post. We all know how reliable those are. #fakenews

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Then why are we having this argument about removing a test that focused on advanced math techniques and discussing the number of students who need “remedial” math? It is totally fine to let in students who demonstrate STEM ability but not acceleration in math. Even desirable. Of course students who are math geniuses should also be admitted. But I am not sure math acceleration is the way to identify that talent.

The problem now is that the math geniuses are not being identified and admitted. The current admissions process is so sparse that all above average kids look more or less the same. Removing the Quant test is just another way that the math geniuses were not identified. The number of students who need "remedial" math would be fine if those kids demonstrated high level STEM ability in other areas. They did not do so. There was nothing in the application to allow them to do so.

Again, no one has suggested looking at math acceleration as the only factor in identifying extreme math talent. Math acceleration + grades in these higher level math classes + teacher recommendations + math awards/achievements in math extracurriculars is what you'd use to identify extreme math talent. I'd be very suspicious of a kid who was highly accelerated and got As, but had no notable math achievements and a meh teacher recommendation.

Previous poster doesn’t understand the point of the Quant-Q or why the prep programs basically made it a pointless exam.

My DC is in the class of 2022. DC didn’t do one second of preparation and I certainly did not pay for a prep class. Plus sometime I feel that the prep class angle is over played. Those showing a desire to put in extra work in whatever it is (sports trainers, tutors, outside classes/camps in a particular subject, street play, etc) should count for something. When it comes to education we should be intervening in the early years not creating policy to adjust for our inability to create a more diverse student body from early on.

It's a red herring. Sure some kids "prepped". But the vast majority of students under previous admission system were simply just smart kids. TJ produces hundreds of national merit semi-finalists. They represents top students in STEM nationally. They went on to perform well in colleges and grad schools. You can't "prep" that. If the "prep" was so easy to do, the rich white parents wouldn't have paid hundreds of thousands to cheat on SATs as varsity blues showed.

The bolded is correct - but there were also hundreds of other kids who were every bit as smart - or smarter - who got leapfrogged because they were competing with kids who walked into an exam designed to test your native problem-solving ability with techniques that were handed to them at a cost of $5K or more to their family. And it was a timed exam where being able to figure out the problems quickly was of tremendous advantage.

FCPS is 100% to blame for that. They knew that was exactly going to happen, but they didn't care to provide that prep to those kids who didn't have the money, awareness, or even access to information. Where were the after school prep programs to help teach them problem solving skills? Were any practice materials even handed out at school? If they wanted to actually help, they would have put $$ instead of empty words. Let's face it, FCPS doesn't give a hoot about minority students applying to TJ.

The admissions process provided links to free prep for the two ACT exams, but the makers of the Quant-Q force anyone who sees it to sign an NDA. So no, FCPS could not provide any sort of free practice materials or prep to the end of improving performance on the Quant-Q. And besides, the purpose of that exam is to test how well and quickly student can identify a complex problem that they haven't seen before and develop a solution for it. When the prep programs got hold of the questions from their previous students, they then charged huge amounts of money to parents so that they could teach students how to solve those problems - making the Quant-Q a pointless exam.

If you go into the Quant-Q already knowing how to solve the types of problems that are on the Quant-Q, it ceases to have any value. It's designed for students to have to struggle with it.

Whre is the proof?

The proof is in the form of students who posted on a forum called TJ Vents on Facebook back in August of 2020. They are members of the Class of 2023 and 2024 whose names appeared on Curie's lists of successful TJ applicants who confirmed in the comment thread of a related post that they were surprised to see questions on the Quant-Q when they took it that they had seen before in their classes at Curie.

The original post was the first public expression of Curie's impact on the TJ admissions process, which was a well-known secret among TJ's South Asian community until a student posted the original anonymous vent.

Dat ain't no proof. GTFO.

I mean, the students at TJ accept it as proof. They believe their colleagues and actually congratulated them on their bravery.

This is fake news. If there was any truth this it would have come up in the lawsuit. FCPS never raised this as a reason the admissions process was changed. Nowhere in the record, the briefs, the TJ papers, etc. does anybody every state they believe Curie had acquired the Quant-Q questions or questions that showed up on the actual TJ test.

Denial. It’s not just a river in Egypt.

I will never understand why FCPS did not pursue the Curie cheating scandal. They had first and last names. They had kids stating that they saw the test ahead of time.

I wonder if there was some kind of pay-to-play going on internally within FCPS and they did not want to embarrass/expose their own staff? Or possibly the company that they fired threatened to sue if they embarrassed them?

Whatever the reasons, the FCPS lawyers clearly gave terrible advice during the admissions “reform” process.

The reality is that there wasn’t anything to prosecute. Curie exploited an apparent gap in the process to tremendous profit. And it worked.

In the process, they made it obvious that change was necessary. If you think FCPS and TJ Admissions didn’t know about their 133 kids in 2024, you’re naïve.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Then why are we having this argument about removing a test that focused on advanced math techniques and discussing the number of students who need “remedial” math? It is totally fine to let in students who demonstrate STEM ability but not acceleration in math. Even desirable. Of course students who are math geniuses should also be admitted. But I am not sure math acceleration is the way to identify that talent.

The problem now is that the math geniuses are not being identified and admitted. The current admissions process is so sparse that all above average kids look more or less the same. Removing the Quant test is just another way that the math geniuses were not identified. The number of students who need "remedial" math would be fine if those kids demonstrated high level STEM ability in other areas. They did not do so. There was nothing in the application to allow them to do so.

Again, no one has suggested looking at math acceleration as the only factor in identifying extreme math talent. Math acceleration + grades in these higher level math classes + teacher recommendations + math awards/achievements in math extracurriculars is what you'd use to identify extreme math talent. I'd be very suspicious of a kid who was highly accelerated and got As, but had no notable math achievements and a meh teacher recommendation.

Previous poster doesn’t understand the point of the Quant-Q or why the prep programs basically made it a pointless exam.

My DC is in the class of 2022. DC didn’t do one second of preparation and I certainly did not pay for a prep class. Plus sometime I feel that the prep class angle is over played. Those showing a desire to put in extra work in whatever it is (sports trainers, tutors, outside classes/camps in a particular subject, street play, etc) should count for something. When it comes to education we should be intervening in the early years not creating policy to adjust for our inability to create a more diverse student body from early on.

It's a red herring. Sure some kids "prepped". But the vast majority of students under previous admission system were simply just smart kids. TJ produces hundreds of national merit semi-finalists. They represents top students in STEM nationally. They went on to perform well in colleges and grad schools. You can't "prep" that. If the "prep" was so easy to do, the rich white parents wouldn't have paid hundreds of thousands to cheat on SATs as varsity blues showed.

The bolded is correct - but there were also hundreds of other kids who were every bit as smart - or smarter - who got leapfrogged because they were competing with kids who walked into an exam designed to test your native problem-solving ability with techniques that were handed to them at a cost of $5K or more to their family. And it was a timed exam where being able to figure out the problems quickly was of tremendous advantage.

FCPS is 100% to blame for that. They knew that was exactly going to happen, but they didn't care to provide that prep to those kids who didn't have the money, awareness, or even access to information. Where were the after school prep programs to help teach them problem solving skills? Were any practice materials even handed out at school? If they wanted to actually help, they would have put $$ instead of empty words. Let's face it, FCPS doesn't give a hoot about minority students applying to TJ.

The admissions process provided links to free prep for the two ACT exams, but the makers of the Quant-Q force anyone who sees it to sign an NDA. So no, FCPS could not provide any sort of free practice materials or prep to the end of improving performance on the Quant-Q. And besides, the purpose of that exam is to test how well and quickly student can identify a complex problem that they haven't seen before and develop a solution for it. When the prep programs got hold of the questions from their previous students, they then charged huge amounts of money to parents so that they could teach students how to solve those problems - making the Quant-Q a pointless exam.

If you go into the Quant-Q already knowing how to solve the types of problems that are on the Quant-Q, it ceases to have any value. It's designed for students to have to struggle with it.

Whre is the proof?

The proof is in the form of students who posted on a forum called TJ Vents on Facebook back in August of 2020. They are members of the Class of 2023 and 2024 whose names appeared on Curie's lists of successful TJ applicants who confirmed in the comment thread of a related post that they were surprised to see questions on the Quant-Q when they took it that they had seen before in their classes at Curie.

The original post was the first public expression of Curie's impact on the TJ admissions process, which was a well-known secret among TJ's South Asian community until a student posted the original anonymous vent.

Dat ain't no proof. GTFO.

I mean, the students at TJ accept it as proof. They believe their colleagues and actually congratulated them on their bravery.

This is fake news. If there was any truth this it would have come up in the lawsuit. FCPS never raised this as a reason the admissions process was changed. Nowhere in the record, the briefs, the TJ papers, etc. does anybody every state they believe Curie had acquired the Quant-Q questions or questions that showed up on the actual TJ test.

Denial. It’s not just a river in Egypt.

I will never understand why FCPS did not pursue the Curie cheating scandal. They had first and last names. They had kids stating that they saw the test ahead of time.

I wonder if there was some kind of pay-to-play going on internally within FCPS and they did not want to embarrass/expose their own staff? Or possibly the company that they fired threatened to sue if they embarrassed them?

Whatever the reasons, the FCPS lawyers clearly gave terrible advice during the admissions “reform” process.

The reality is that there wasn’t anything to prosecute. Curie exploited an apparent gap in the process to tremendous profit. And it worked.

In the process, they made it obvious that change was necessary. If you think FCPS and TJ Admissions didn’t know about their 133 kids in 2024, you’re naïve.

Many prep companies pay some admittees to top universities as well as TJ in this case to say they got in because of ABC prep Co. This is a well know fact. Almost always inflated, exaggerated and not very reliable since we will never know. It is called marketing folks. Nothing burger and happens all the time.

Probably, Curie paid some if not most of the TJ students listed on FB to say they got in because of Curie. Move on and stop wasting time on this issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Then why are we having this argument about removing a test that focused on advanced math techniques and discussing the number of students who need “remedial” math? It is totally fine to let in students who demonstrate STEM ability but not acceleration in math. Even desirable. Of course students who are math geniuses should also be admitted. But I am not sure math acceleration is the way to identify that talent.

The problem now is that the math geniuses are not being identified and admitted. The current admissions process is so sparse that all above average kids look more or less the same. Removing the Quant test is just another way that the math geniuses were not identified. The number of students who need "remedial" math would be fine if those kids demonstrated high level STEM ability in other areas. They did not do so. There was nothing in the application to allow them to do so.

Again, no one has suggested looking at math acceleration as the only factor in identifying extreme math talent. Math acceleration + grades in these higher level math classes + teacher recommendations + math awards/achievements in math extracurriculars is what you'd use to identify extreme math talent. I'd be very suspicious of a kid who was highly accelerated and got As, but had no notable math achievements and a meh teacher recommendation.

Previous poster doesn’t understand the point of the Quant-Q or why the prep programs basically made it a pointless exam.

My DC is in the class of 2022. DC didn’t do one second of preparation and I certainly did not pay for a prep class. Plus sometime I feel that the prep class angle is over played. Those showing a desire to put in extra work in whatever it is (sports trainers, tutors, outside classes/camps in a particular subject, street play, etc) should count for something. When it comes to education we should be intervening in the early years not creating policy to adjust for our inability to create a more diverse student body from early on.

It's a red herring. Sure some kids "prepped". But the vast majority of students under previous admission system were simply just smart kids. TJ produces hundreds of national merit semi-finalists. They represents top students in STEM nationally. They went on to perform well in colleges and grad schools. You can't "prep" that. If the "prep" was so easy to do, the rich white parents wouldn't have paid hundreds of thousands to cheat on SATs as varsity blues showed.

The bolded is correct - but there were also hundreds of other kids who were every bit as smart - or smarter - who got leapfrogged because they were competing with kids who walked into an exam designed to test your native problem-solving ability with techniques that were handed to them at a cost of $5K or more to their family. And it was a timed exam where being able to figure out the problems quickly was of tremendous advantage.

FCPS is 100% to blame for that. They knew that was exactly going to happen, but they didn't care to provide that prep to those kids who didn't have the money, awareness, or even access to information. Where were the after school prep programs to help teach them problem solving skills? Were any practice materials even handed out at school? If they wanted to actually help, they would have put $$ instead of empty words. Let's face it, FCPS doesn't give a hoot about minority students applying to TJ.

The admissions process provided links to free prep for the two ACT exams, but the makers of the Quant-Q force anyone who sees it to sign an NDA. So no, FCPS could not provide any sort of free practice materials or prep to the end of improving performance on the Quant-Q. And besides, the purpose of that exam is to test how well and quickly student can identify a complex problem that they haven't seen before and develop a solution for it. When the prep programs got hold of the questions from their previous students, they then charged huge amounts of money to parents so that they could teach students how to solve those problems - making the Quant-Q a pointless exam.

If you go into the Quant-Q already knowing how to solve the types of problems that are on the Quant-Q, it ceases to have any value. It's designed for students to have to struggle with it.

Whre is the proof?

The proof is in the form of students who posted on a forum called TJ Vents on Facebook back in August of 2020. They are members of the Class of 2023 and 2024 whose names appeared on Curie's lists of successful TJ applicants who confirmed in the comment thread of a related post that they were surprised to see questions on the Quant-Q when they took it that they had seen before in their classes at Curie.

The original post was the first public expression of Curie's impact on the TJ admissions process, which was a well-known secret among TJ's South Asian community until a student posted the original anonymous vent.

Dat ain't no proof. GTFO.

I mean, the students at TJ accept it as proof. They believe their colleagues and actually congratulated them on their bravery.

This is fake news. If there was any truth this it would have come up in the lawsuit. FCPS never raised this as a reason the admissions process was changed. Nowhere in the record, the briefs, the TJ papers, etc. does anybody every state they believe Curie had acquired the Quant-Q questions or questions that showed up on the actual TJ test.

Denial. It’s not just a river in Egypt.

I will never understand why FCPS did not pursue the Curie cheating scandal. They had first and last names. They had kids stating that they saw the test ahead of time.

I wonder if there was some kind of pay-to-play going on internally within FCPS and they did not want to embarrass/expose their own staff? Or possibly the company that they fired threatened to sue if they embarrassed them?

Whatever the reasons, the FCPS lawyers clearly gave terrible advice during the admissions “reform” process.

The reality is that there wasn’t anything to prosecute. Curie exploited an apparent gap in the process to tremendous profit. And it worked.

In the process, they made it obvious that change was necessary. If you think FCPS and TJ Admissions didn’t know about their 133 kids in 2024, you’re naïve.

Many prep companies pay some admittees to top universities as well as TJ in this case to say they got in because of ABC prep Co. This is a well know fact. Almost always inflated, exaggerated and not very reliable since we will never know. It is called marketing folks. Nothing burger and happens all the time.

Probably, Curie paid some if not most of the TJ students listed on FB to say they got in because of Curie. Move on and stop wasting time on this issue.

It's more likely that Curie included any child who has taken any single class or attended any summer camp with them over the previous 2 or 3 years in their list of Curie kids who were admitted to TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Then why are we having this argument about removing a test that focused on advanced math techniques and discussing the number of students who need “remedial” math? It is totally fine to let in students who demonstrate STEM ability but not acceleration in math. Even desirable. Of course students who are math geniuses should also be admitted. But I am not sure math acceleration is the way to identify that talent.

The problem now is that the math geniuses are not being identified and admitted. The current admissions process is so sparse that all above average kids look more or less the same. Removing the Quant test is just another way that the math geniuses were not identified. The number of students who need "remedial" math would be fine if those kids demonstrated high level STEM ability in other areas. They did not do so. There was nothing in the application to allow them to do so.

Again, no one has suggested looking at math acceleration as the only factor in identifying extreme math talent. Math acceleration + grades in these higher level math classes + teacher recommendations + math awards/achievements in math extracurriculars is what you'd use to identify extreme math talent. I'd be very suspicious of a kid who was highly accelerated and got As, but had no notable math achievements and a meh teacher recommendation.

Previous poster doesn’t understand the point of the Quant-Q or why the prep programs basically made it a pointless exam.

My DC is in the class of 2022. DC didn’t do one second of preparation and I certainly did not pay for a prep class. Plus sometime I feel that the prep class angle is over played. Those showing a desire to put in extra work in whatever it is (sports trainers, tutors, outside classes/camps in a particular subject, street play, etc) should count for something. When it comes to education we should be intervening in the early years not creating policy to adjust for our inability to create a more diverse student body from early on.

It's a red herring. Sure some kids "prepped". But the vast majority of students under previous admission system were simply just smart kids. TJ produces hundreds of national merit semi-finalists. They represents top students in STEM nationally. They went on to perform well in colleges and grad schools. You can't "prep" that. If the "prep" was so easy to do, the rich white parents wouldn't have paid hundreds of thousands to cheat on SATs as varsity blues showed.

The bolded is correct - but there were also hundreds of other kids who were every bit as smart - or smarter - who got leapfrogged because they were competing with kids who walked into an exam designed to test your native problem-solving ability with techniques that were handed to them at a cost of $5K or more to their family. And it was a timed exam where being able to figure out the problems quickly was of tremendous advantage.

FCPS is 100% to blame for that. They knew that was exactly going to happen, but they didn't care to provide that prep to those kids who didn't have the money, awareness, or even access to information. Where were the after school prep programs to help teach them problem solving skills? Were any practice materials even handed out at school? If they wanted to actually help, they would have put $$ instead of empty words. Let's face it, FCPS doesn't give a hoot about minority students applying to TJ.

The admissions process provided links to free prep for the two ACT exams, but the makers of the Quant-Q force anyone who sees it to sign an NDA. So no, FCPS could not provide any sort of free practice materials or prep to the end of improving performance on the Quant-Q. And besides, the purpose of that exam is to test how well and quickly student can identify a complex problem that they haven't seen before and develop a solution for it. When the prep programs got hold of the questions from their previous students, they then charged huge amounts of money to parents so that they could teach students how to solve those problems - making the Quant-Q a pointless exam.

If you go into the Quant-Q already knowing how to solve the types of problems that are on the Quant-Q, it ceases to have any value. It's designed for students to have to struggle with it.

Whre is the proof?

The proof is in the form of students who posted on a forum called TJ Vents on Facebook back in August of 2020. They are members of the Class of 2023 and 2024 whose names appeared on Curie's lists of successful TJ applicants who confirmed in the comment thread of a related post that they were surprised to see questions on the Quant-Q when they took it that they had seen before in their classes at Curie.

The original post was the first public expression of Curie's impact on the TJ admissions process, which was a well-known secret among TJ's South Asian community until a student posted the original anonymous vent.

Dat ain't no proof. GTFO.

I mean, the students at TJ accept it as proof. They believe their colleagues and actually congratulated them on their bravery.

This is fake news. If there was any truth this it would have come up in the lawsuit. FCPS never raised this as a reason the admissions process was changed. Nowhere in the record, the briefs, the TJ papers, etc. does anybody every state they believe Curie had acquired the Quant-Q questions or questions that showed up on the actual TJ test.

Denial. It’s not just a river in Egypt.

I will never understand why FCPS did not pursue the Curie cheating scandal. They had first and last names. They had kids stating that they saw the test ahead of time.

I wonder if there was some kind of pay-to-play going on internally within FCPS and they did not want to embarrass/expose their own staff? Or possibly the company that they fired threatened to sue if they embarrassed them?

Whatever the reasons, the FCPS lawyers clearly gave terrible advice during the admissions “reform” process.

The reality is that there wasn’t anything to prosecute. Curie exploited an apparent gap in the process to tremendous profit. And it worked.

In the process, they made it obvious that change was necessary. If you think FCPS and TJ Admissions didn’t know about their 133 kids in 2024, you’re naïve.

Many prep companies pay some admittees to top universities as well as TJ in this case to say they got in because of ABC prep Co. This is a well know fact. Almost always inflated, exaggerated and not very reliable since we will never know. It is called marketing folks. Nothing burger and happens all the time.

Probably, Curie paid some if not most of the TJ students listed on FB to say they got in because of Curie. Move on and stop wasting time on this issue.

More non-falsifiable speculation that conveniently serves a helpful narrative.

Even if true, the fact that they used the names of TJ students to try to create a market that suggests that your best chance of getting into TJ is to spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours on this private company is incredibly problematic.

And there is absolutely zero evidence to support that claim anyway.

Curie’s existence and apparent success suggests a pay-to-play dynamic in the admissions process of a public school. That’s REALLY bad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Then why are we having this argument about removing a test that focused on advanced math techniques and discussing the number of students who need “remedial” math? It is totally fine to let in students who demonstrate STEM ability but not acceleration in math. Even desirable. Of course students who are math geniuses should also be admitted. But I am not sure math acceleration is the way to identify that talent.

The problem now is that the math geniuses are not being identified and admitted. The current admissions process is so sparse that all above average kids look more or less the same. Removing the Quant test is just another way that the math geniuses were not identified. The number of students who need "remedial" math would be fine if those kids demonstrated high level STEM ability in other areas. They did not do so. There was nothing in the application to allow them to do so.

Again, no one has suggested looking at math acceleration as the only factor in identifying extreme math talent. Math acceleration + grades in these higher level math classes + teacher recommendations + math awards/achievements in math extracurriculars is what you'd use to identify extreme math talent. I'd be very suspicious of a kid who was highly accelerated and got As, but had no notable math achievements and a meh teacher recommendation.

Previous poster doesn’t understand the point of the Quant-Q or why the prep programs basically made it a pointless exam.

My DC is in the class of 2022. DC didn’t do one second of preparation and I certainly did not pay for a prep class. Plus sometime I feel that the prep class angle is over played. Those showing a desire to put in extra work in whatever it is (sports trainers, tutors, outside classes/camps in a particular subject, street play, etc) should count for something. When it comes to education we should be intervening in the early years not creating policy to adjust for our inability to create a more diverse student body from early on.

It's a red herring. Sure some kids "prepped". But the vast majority of students under previous admission system were simply just smart kids. TJ produces hundreds of national merit semi-finalists. They represents top students in STEM nationally. They went on to perform well in colleges and grad schools. You can't "prep" that. If the "prep" was so easy to do, the rich white parents wouldn't have paid hundreds of thousands to cheat on SATs as varsity blues showed.

The bolded is correct - but there were also hundreds of other kids who were every bit as smart - or smarter - who got leapfrogged because they were competing with kids who walked into an exam designed to test your native problem-solving ability with techniques that were handed to them at a cost of $5K or more to their family. And it was a timed exam where being able to figure out the problems quickly was of tremendous advantage.

FCPS is 100% to blame for that. They knew that was exactly going to happen, but they didn't care to provide that prep to those kids who didn't have the money, awareness, or even access to information. Where were the after school prep programs to help teach them problem solving skills? Were any practice materials even handed out at school? If they wanted to actually help, they would have put $$ instead of empty words. Let's face it, FCPS doesn't give a hoot about minority students applying to TJ.

The admissions process provided links to free prep for the two ACT exams, but the makers of the Quant-Q force anyone who sees it to sign an NDA. So no, FCPS could not provide any sort of free practice materials or prep to the end of improving performance on the Quant-Q. And besides, the purpose of that exam is to test how well and quickly student can identify a complex problem that they haven't seen before and develop a solution for it. When the prep programs got hold of the questions from their previous students, they then charged huge amounts of money to parents so that they could teach students how to solve those problems - making the Quant-Q a pointless exam.

If you go into the Quant-Q already knowing how to solve the types of problems that are on the Quant-Q, it ceases to have any value. It's designed for students to have to struggle with it.

Whre is the proof?

The proof is in the form of students who posted on a forum called TJ Vents on Facebook back in August of 2020. They are members of the Class of 2023 and 2024 whose names appeared on Curie's lists of successful TJ applicants who confirmed in the comment thread of a related post that they were surprised to see questions on the Quant-Q when they took it that they had seen before in their classes at Curie.

The original post was the first public expression of Curie's impact on the TJ admissions process, which was a well-known secret among TJ's South Asian community until a student posted the original anonymous vent.

Dat ain't no proof. GTFO.

I mean, the students at TJ accept it as proof. They believe their colleagues and actually congratulated them on their bravery.

This is fake news. If there was any truth this it would have come up in the lawsuit. FCPS never raised this as a reason the admissions process was changed. Nowhere in the record, the briefs, the TJ papers, etc. does anybody every state they believe Curie had acquired the Quant-Q questions or questions that showed up on the actual TJ test.

Denial. It’s not just a river in Egypt.

I will never understand why FCPS did not pursue the Curie cheating scandal. They had first and last names. They had kids stating that they saw the test ahead of time.

I wonder if there was some kind of pay-to-play going on internally within FCPS and they did not want to embarrass/expose their own staff? Or possibly the company that they fired threatened to sue if they embarrassed them?

Whatever the reasons, the FCPS lawyers clearly gave terrible advice during the admissions “reform” process.

The reality is that there wasn’t anything to prosecute. Curie exploited an apparent gap in the process to tremendous profit. And it worked.

In the process, they made it obvious that change was necessary. If you think FCPS and TJ Admissions didn’t know about their 133 kids in 2024, you’re naïve.

Many prep companies pay some admittees to top universities as well as TJ in this case to say they got in because of ABC prep Co. This is a well know fact. Almost always inflated, exaggerated and not very reliable since we will never know. It is called marketing folks. Nothing burger and happens all the time.

Probably, Curie paid some if not most of the TJ students listed on FB to say they got in because of Curie. Move on and stop wasting time on this issue.

More non-falsifiable speculation that conveniently serves a helpful narrative.

Even if true, the fact that they used the names of TJ students to try to create a market that suggests that your best chance of getting into TJ is to spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours on this private company is incredibly problematic.

And there is absolutely zero evidence to support that claim anyway.

Curie’s existence and apparent success suggests a pay-to-play dynamic in the admissions process of a public school. That’s REALLY bad.

Unfortunately for you, almost all prep companies engage in this type of marketing behavior not just TJ related prep companies. Time to stop wasting people's time on these threads and go investigate your self if you are so obsessed. Hire a private investigator or go talk to other prep companies and find out but stop wasting other people's time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Then why are we having this argument about removing a test that focused on advanced math techniques and discussing the number of students who need “remedial” math? It is totally fine to let in students who demonstrate STEM ability but not acceleration in math. Even desirable. Of course students who are math geniuses should also be admitted. But I am not sure math acceleration is the way to identify that talent.

The problem now is that the math geniuses are not being identified and admitted. The current admissions process is so sparse that all above average kids look more or less the same. Removing the Quant test is just another way that the math geniuses were not identified. The number of students who need "remedial" math would be fine if those kids demonstrated high level STEM ability in other areas. They did not do so. There was nothing in the application to allow them to do so.

Again, no one has suggested looking at math acceleration as the only factor in identifying extreme math talent. Math acceleration + grades in these higher level math classes + teacher recommendations + math awards/achievements in math extracurriculars is what you'd use to identify extreme math talent. I'd be very suspicious of a kid who was highly accelerated and got As, but had no notable math achievements and a meh teacher recommendation.

Previous poster doesn’t understand the point of the Quant-Q or why the prep programs basically made it a pointless exam.

My DC is in the class of 2022. DC didn’t do one second of preparation and I certainly did not pay for a prep class. Plus sometime I feel that the prep class angle is over played. Those showing a desire to put in extra work in whatever it is (sports trainers, tutors, outside classes/camps in a particular subject, street play, etc) should count for something. When it comes to education we should be intervening in the early years not creating policy to adjust for our inability to create a more diverse student body from early on.

It's a red herring. Sure some kids "prepped". But the vast majority of students under previous admission system were simply just smart kids. TJ produces hundreds of national merit semi-finalists. They represents top students in STEM nationally. They went on to perform well in colleges and grad schools. You can't "prep" that. If the "prep" was so easy to do, the rich white parents wouldn't have paid hundreds of thousands to cheat on SATs as varsity blues showed.

The bolded is correct - but there were also hundreds of other kids who were every bit as smart - or smarter - who got leapfrogged because they were competing with kids who walked into an exam designed to test your native problem-solving ability with techniques that were handed to them at a cost of $5K or more to their family. And it was a timed exam where being able to figure out the problems quickly was of tremendous advantage.

FCPS is 100% to blame for that. They knew that was exactly going to happen, but they didn't care to provide that prep to those kids who didn't have the money, awareness, or even access to information. Where were the after school prep programs to help teach them problem solving skills? Were any practice materials even handed out at school? If they wanted to actually help, they would have put $$ instead of empty words. Let's face it, FCPS doesn't give a hoot about minority students applying to TJ.

The admissions process provided links to free prep for the two ACT exams, but the makers of the Quant-Q force anyone who sees it to sign an NDA. So no, FCPS could not provide any sort of free practice materials or prep to the end of improving performance on the Quant-Q. And besides, the purpose of that exam is to test how well and quickly student can identify a complex problem that they haven't seen before and develop a solution for it. When the prep programs got hold of the questions from their previous students, they then charged huge amounts of money to parents so that they could teach students how to solve those problems - making the Quant-Q a pointless exam.

If you go into the Quant-Q already knowing how to solve the types of problems that are on the Quant-Q, it ceases to have any value. It's designed for students to have to struggle with it.

Whre is the proof?

The proof is in the form of students who posted on a forum called TJ Vents on Facebook back in August of 2020. They are members of the Class of 2023 and 2024 whose names appeared on Curie's lists of successful TJ applicants who confirmed in the comment thread of a related post that they were surprised to see questions on the Quant-Q when they took it that they had seen before in their classes at Curie.

The original post was the first public expression of Curie's impact on the TJ admissions process, which was a well-known secret among TJ's South Asian community until a student posted the original anonymous vent.

Dat ain't no proof. GTFO.

I mean, the students at TJ accept it as proof. They believe their colleagues and actually congratulated them on their bravery.

This is fake news. If there was any truth this it would have come up in the lawsuit. FCPS never raised this as a reason the admissions process was changed. Nowhere in the record, the briefs, the TJ papers, etc. does anybody every state they believe Curie had acquired the Quant-Q questions or questions that showed up on the actual TJ test.

Denial. It’s not just a river in Egypt.

I will never understand why FCPS did not pursue the Curie cheating scandal. They had first and last names. They had kids stating that they saw the test ahead of time.

I wonder if there was some kind of pay-to-play going on internally within FCPS and they did not want to embarrass/expose their own staff? Or possibly the company that they fired threatened to sue if they embarrassed them?

Whatever the reasons, the FCPS lawyers clearly gave terrible advice during the admissions “reform” process.

The reality is that there wasn’t anything to prosecute. Curie exploited an apparent gap in the process to tremendous profit. And it worked.

In the process, they made it obvious that change was necessary. If you think FCPS and TJ Admissions didn’t know about their 133 kids in 2024, you’re naïve.

Many prep companies pay some admittees to top universities as well as TJ in this case to say they got in because of ABC prep Co. This is a well know fact. Almost always inflated, exaggerated and not very reliable since we will never know. It is called marketing folks. Nothing burger and happens all the time.

Probably, Curie paid some if not most of the TJ students listed on FB to say they got in because of Curie. Move on and stop wasting time on this issue.

More non-falsifiable speculation that conveniently serves a helpful narrative.

Even if true, the fact that they used the names of TJ students to try to create a market that suggests that your best chance of getting into TJ is to spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours on this private company is incredibly problematic.

And there is absolutely zero evidence to support that claim anyway.

Curie’s existence and apparent success suggests a pay-to-play dynamic in the admissions process of a public school. That’s REALLY bad.

Unfortunately for you, almost all prep companies engage in this type of marketing behavior not just TJ related prep companies. Time to stop wasting people's time on these threads and go investigate your self if you are so obsessed. Hire a private investigator or go talk to other prep companies and find out but stop wasting other people's time.

Nah. I’ll just amplify the publicly available information - which speaks for itself and doesn’t really require further investigation - until there’s no further conversation about using testing metrics that are so easily manipulated by wealthy and motivated applicants.