Growing share of childless adults in U.S. don’t expect to ever have children

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you think about, purely from a financial perspective, I am doing way, way worse than my friends who did not have kids (chosen not to or just couldn't because of biology, relationships, circumstances, etc).

It is an interesting thing to see right now since I'm in the thick of it, but US society doesn't encourage having children. If anything, there are economic disincentives built into the economy. No paid leave after having a child, an expensive childcare framework that is regulated to high hell by the government (for safety reasons, is unquestionably a good thing) with no financial support of the government (which people endless dispute as to whether it is shitty or not). Tax benefits are minimal. College savings programs aren't deductible federally and student loan interest is subject to income limits that drive people out of being able to take the deductions. Factor in the caps on SALT deductions (local property taxes pay for schools and surprise, the federal government DOESN'T want to encourage this I guess) and well...here we are.

I agree that the government doesn't give incentives to have kids. We need young workers to support social security. They are an investment in the future. The government will gladly spend money on bombers and missles but not new born taxpayers. Seems stupid.

[Anonymous]

My 4 yo talks about becoming a mommy when she grows up all the time, and it makes me sad on some level because I just don't know if she is going to feel that way as an adult. I don't think there's anything wrong with choosing not to have kids -- I have a number of friends who went this route either by choice or circumstances, and they are great people with fulfilling lives. But I do wonder if parenthood will feel feasible at all for my kid when she's grown. Especially after parenting through this pandemic and seeing how this country supports (or more specifically, does not support) families in tough times.

I think it's concerning that many of the people saying they don't expect to have kids are NOT saying they don't want them, but that they just don't think it's a smart decision. It's too expensive, it derails your career if you're a woman, and there is an increasing sense that you'd be bringing a kid into a very troubled world (my DD was born just a few months after Trump was elected, so I know acutely how conflicted it can feel to welcome a child into a world with really capital "P" problems.

I think if this bothers you, you should commit to:

1) Real progress on climate change, not just fake promises of weak targets but real action with teeth to reduce emissions rapidly, even if it means stuff like reducing air travel and meat consumption
2) Social supports for young families including strong paid family leave, universal PK, and subsidized childcare.

If you don't think those things are possible or you aren't willing to give up what it would take to accomplish them, then I don't see how you can weight in on the choices of young people not to have children. If the above is a bridge too far for you, I guess we're going to find out what it looks like if birth rates, especially of non-immigrant populations, fall off a cliff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it is because women and men are more lazy. I say that as my mother in law and father in law both with HS degrees had there kids.

My father in law after first took a part time job 20 hours a week after his full time job, they both a single failing house with two “boarders” in house in upstairs of cape. They rented rooms. They never went out to eat and mom went back to work when youngest turned 12.

Today most men would not get a second job, take in a boarder or skip luxuries a few years so wife could stay home and have three kids. They just whine and watch Netflix and play fortnight whine they hire gardeners, gutter cleaners. and handymen to do their work whine their wife struggles to work full time and raise kids. No wonder women are pushing back.

This is very true. American men are absurdly lazy. I’m an immigrant woman who married an American man and this laggard is bringing down the family. He combines very high living standards with very poor work ethic. I was working in very lucrative job when we married and so was he. Two special needs kids later, we are in a diminished financial position. I am the one who suffered complications giving birth to them and who does most of the childcare, yet I am undaunted. I stick to a budget and I have a side gig that is bringing in $2000-3000 extra per month. It never occurred to me to give up.

In contrast, my husband’s expenses have gone up as he has added a therapist to coach him through the depression that no longer having it easy has apparently caused him. He insist that he went to school for only one thing, so he can’t learn new skills or even help grow my side gig. He works only 9-5 and mismanages his time so that his ranking in his sales job has steadily fallen. Soon, he will be unemployed and he has another thing coming if he thinks he’s going to live off me.

All of the men in my family are absolutely scandalized by how useless he is. All of the Americans in our friend group, however, applaud him merely for holding down a job despite his “depression.” People here just have very low standards for themselves. The concept of rising to the occasion just doesn’t exist in this culture—at least not among middle class whites.

Depression is an illness that can be debilitating. How dare you put it in sarcastic quotes. I struggle with it daily. Your attitude doesn't help him at all-- I don't even think you want to help him. You should divorce him if you don't have any respect for him. He would be better off without a wife like you who only values money.

Immigrant PP here. Don’t whine about depression to me, you lazy American. Laziness is what you’re suffering from. Do you want to know what depression is? Depression is losing two siblings to malaria and my mother to complications from childbirth because we couldn’t afford ordinary antibiotics. That’s my background. Now that I am a mother, I feel those losses even deeply. And that’s just a fraction of my story. In spite of that suffering, I get up every single day and fight to do what I have to do. Because I have responsibilities to others. I owe it to my children and my family to do my part. You Americans have no concept of owing others something. If you don’t feel like doing something for yourself, that’s the end of the story. It’s all about you. And that’s why your whole life collapses once one bad thing happens to you. You are quitters. Even your divorce answer is that of a quitter. My husband needs to get up and get to living. I will do my best to motivate him. I am not staying for the joy of him. I am staying to keep my children’s family together and because I still believe in him — concepts most Americans don’t understand. I would never ever marry an American again, but I made my bed with this one and will stay the course as long as I can.

Jesus, I'd have to throw myself off a cliff if I were ever married to a nasty shrew like you. Death would be better than 30 years of a torturous marriage to your toxic ass.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not surprising given that most people who never wanted kids use the environment and climate as their reason. I mean, it sounds better than saying they don’t want kids because they don’t like them or don’t want to take on the responsibility. It sounds altruistic when you blame global warming while patting yourself on the back for shrinking your carbon/waste footprint.

There’s nothing wrong with not wanting kids btw.

Both can be true. It’s not a false dichotomy like how you’re painting it original PP.

Disagree.

Anyone who truly wants children doesn’t opt to forego kids for their one man attempt to save the environment. It’s an excuse for people who never wanted kids to begin with.

Why does it need to be an excuse? Maybe people just don't want kids. There's nothing wrong with that.

Correct.

And FTR, that’s what I said earlier: there’s nothing wrong with not wanting kids.

But I simply do not believe anyone who desperately wants kids—or even just wants a kid to a normal degree—would ever give that up to avoid exacerbating global warming. That’s not true. Anyone who responds to a survey like that is just reaching for an excuse that makes them look good.

NP, but what you are missing here is that they aren’t thinking about the environment in that choice, they are thinking about what life will be like for their child. If the future looks like it will be a dystopian hellscape, then having children because you really, really want them feels selfish. And you can look around at other countries and easily see that anyone without a LOT of money to insulate them may be in a terrible situation in 20 years. The competition for food alone will be dramatic in many places. There will be displaced people all over the world from various natural disasters. If it is a financial stretch to pay for daycare, then my child is not going to be one of the ones who flees the fire/flood/drought and goes to our winter home. They will be one of the miserable wretches with nothing but the shirt on their back. So it’s that vision of a beloved child having to navigate an increasingly dangerous world with the pitiful resources available to what’s left of the middle class, that makes people choose not to have kids.

+1

I do know some people who limited how many kids they had for environmental reasons, but I think the bolded is why some people are choosing to have no children. The future feels really bleak, and people don't want to have kids if they feel like they can't give them a good life. Kids are an act of hope, in many ways, and a lot of people are feeling pretty hopeless about climate change and the effects it will have in terms of disasters, conflict, and quality of life.

[Anonymous]

The responses in this thread are just proving the immigrant PP right.

She’s saying stand up, work hard, and don’t be a victim. What sane person can really disagree with that?

You’re all overreacting because she didn’t say it nicely and kiss your ass. We’ve become a nation of oversensitive snowflakes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it is because women and men are more lazy. I say that as my mother in law and father in law both with HS degrees had there kids.

My father in law after first took a part time job 20 hours a week after his full time job, they both a single failing house with two “boarders” in house in upstairs of cape. They rented rooms. They never went out to eat and mom went back to work when youngest turned 12.

Today most men would not get a second job, take in a boarder or skip luxuries a few years so wife could stay home and have three kids. They just whine and watch Netflix and play fortnight whine they hire gardeners, gutter cleaners. and handymen to do their work whine their wife struggles to work full time and raise kids. No wonder women are pushing back.

This is very true. American men are absurdly lazy. I’m an immigrant woman who married an American man and this laggard is bringing down the family. He combines very high living standards with very poor work ethic. I was working in very lucrative job when we married and so was he. Two special needs kids later, we are in a diminished financial position. I am the one who suffered complications giving birth to them and who does most of the childcare, yet I am undaunted. I stick to a budget and I have a side gig that is bringing in $2000-3000 extra per month. It never occurred to me to give up.

In contrast, my husband’s expenses have gone up as he has added a therapist to coach him through the depression that no longer having it easy has apparently caused him. He insist that he went to school for only one thing, so he can’t learn new skills or even help grow my side gig. He works only 9-5 and mismanages his time so that his ranking in his sales job has steadily fallen. Soon, he will be unemployed and he has another thing coming if he thinks he’s going to live off me.

All of the men in my family are absolutely scandalized by how useless he is. All of the Americans in our friend group, however, applaud him merely for holding down a job despite his “depression.” People here just have very low standards for themselves. The concept of rising to the occasion just doesn’t exist in this culture—at least not among middle class whites.

Depression is an illness that can be debilitating. How dare you put it in sarcastic quotes. I struggle with it daily. Your attitude doesn't help him at all-- I don't even think you want to help him. You should divorce him if you don't have any respect for him. He would be better off without a wife like you who only values money.

Immigrant PP here. Don’t whine about depression to me, you lazy American. Laziness is what you’re suffering from. Do you want to know what depression is? Depression is losing two siblings to malaria and my mother to complications from childbirth because we couldn’t afford ordinary antibiotics. That’s my background. Now that I am a mother, I feel those losses even deeply. And that’s just a fraction of my story. In spite of that suffering, I get up every single day and fight to do what I have to do. Because I have responsibilities to others. I owe it to my children and my family to do my part. You Americans have no concept of owing others something. If you don’t feel like doing something for yourself, that’s the end of the story. It’s all about you. And that’s why your whole life collapses once one bad thing happens to you. You are quitters. Even your divorce answer is that of a quitter. My husband needs to get up and get to living. I will do my best to motivate him. I am not staying for the joy of him. I am staying to keep my children’s family together and because I still believe in him — concepts most Americans don’t understand. I would never ever marry an American again, but I made my bed with this one and will stay the course as long as I can.

If you hate Americans so much then why are you living in the USA? Just to talk shit about us while enjoying our infrastructure, laws and taxes to benefit your own family? You are a hateful person. I would be angry too if I lived with a husband that I dislike in a country that I hate.

Stop whining. She’s right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think much of the problem for upper middle class parents is of our own making. The relentless competitiveness about parenting- everything is scheduled extra curriculars, tutoring, getting in to the best schools and colleges…when i was a kid we were expected to take a ball to the park and not come back before dark…

I don’t blame umc parents. It’s more treacherous staying in the UMC after you get there in the US.

Falling in ses has negative consequences that are more acute here than in Europe.

It’s literally a shift in health and life expectancy outcomes.

European moms are way more chill because If their kid(s) can’t afford their neighborhood and move to a neighborhood over with more poverty, it’s
Still relatively safe and food desserts aren’t really as common.

Agree. It really isn't the middle class' fault. The rich have hoarded so much over time that everyone else has to compete over access to getting into college and getting a "good" job.

Competition exists nowhere else in the world? You’re obviously not well-travelled.

Where did the PP say that? She made the point that in societies that help provide basic things like education, child care, health care, old age care, etc., the pressures on parents are different. If you know you can afford college for your kid, or you don't have to worry about the cost of health care, the consequences of making less money are less dire -- your basic needs will be covered, you won't end up homeless, your kids will still have a shot. In America, your health and life expectancy are heavily dependent on your income. Someone described it on Twitter as "your 70th birthday being behind a paywall."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who is going to buy all this real estate that is the main investment for most families? Declining population is not helpful to a healthy real estate market.

Prices will plummet due to less demand, especially the McMansion homes. Then lower SES people will be able to afford them. They have lots of kids and are multigenerational.

Childfree people also like to live in houses. They have pets and like to entertain. I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for prices to plummet.

It's not going to happen soon but look to 30 years from now. I guess we'll have the mix of fewer people to buy stuff but also fewer places that are habitable. So houses on dry land should still hold their value.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The responses in this thread are just proving the immigrant PP right.

She’s saying stand up, work hard, and don’t be a victim. What sane person can really disagree with that?

You’re all overreacting because she didn’t say it nicely and kiss your ass. We’ve become a nation of oversensitive snowflakes.

No we are annoyed because she's conflating Depression which is a chemical imbalance/illness with being lazy. Oh lemme guess you don't believe it's truly a medical problem. Well thousands of medical professionals all over the world do but thanks for contributing to the stigma that stops people getting treatment.

Depression is biological. Facts. Deal with it, Boomer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it is because women and men are more lazy. I say that as my mother in law and father in law both with HS degrees had there kids.

My father in law after first took a part time job 20 hours a week after his full time job, they both a single failing house with two “boarders” in house in upstairs of cape. They rented rooms. They never went out to eat and mom went back to work when youngest turned 12.

Today most men would not get a second job, take in a boarder or skip luxuries a few years so wife could stay home and have three kids. They just whine and watch Netflix and play fortnight whine they hire gardeners, gutter cleaners. and handymen to do their work whine their wife struggles to work full time and raise kids. No wonder women are pushing back.

This is very true. American men are absurdly lazy. I’m an immigrant woman who married an American man and this laggard is bringing down the family. He combines very high living standards with very poor work ethic. I was working in very lucrative job when we married and so was he. Two special needs kids later, we are in a diminished financial position. I am the one who suffered complications giving birth to them and who does most of the childcare, yet I am undaunted. I stick to a budget and I have a side gig that is bringing in $2000-3000 extra per month. It never occurred to me to give up.

In contrast, my husband’s expenses have gone up as he has added a therapist to coach him through the depression that no longer having it easy has apparently caused him. He insist that he went to school for only one thing, so he can’t learn new skills or even help grow my side gig. He works only 9-5 and mismanages his time so that his ranking in his sales job has steadily fallen. Soon, he will be unemployed and he has another thing coming if he thinks he’s going to live off me.

All of the men in my family are absolutely scandalized by how useless he is. All of the Americans in our friend group, however, applaud him merely for holding down a job despite his “depression.” People here just have very low standards for themselves. The concept of rising to the occasion just doesn’t exist in this culture—at least not among middle class whites.

Depression is an illness that can be debilitating. How dare you put it in sarcastic quotes. I struggle with it daily. Your attitude doesn't help him at all-- I don't even think you want to help him. You should divorce him if you don't have any respect for him. He would be better off without a wife like you who only values money.

Immigrant PP here. Don’t whine about depression to me, you lazy American. Laziness is what you’re suffering from. Do you want to know what depression is? Depression is losing two siblings to malaria and my mother to complications from childbirth because we couldn’t afford ordinary antibiotics. That’s my background. Now that I am a mother, I feel those losses even deeply. And that’s just a fraction of my story. In spite of that suffering, I get up every single day and fight to do what I have to do. Because I have responsibilities to others. I owe it to my children and my family to do my part. You Americans have no concept of owing others something. If you don’t feel like doing something for yourself, that’s the end of the story. It’s all about you. And that’s why your whole life collapses once one bad thing happens to you. You are quitters. Even your divorce answer is that of a quitter. My husband needs to get up and get to living. I will do my best to motivate him. I am not staying for the joy of him. I am staying to keep my children’s family together and because I still believe in him — concepts most Americans don’t understand. I would never ever marry an American again, but I made my bed with this one and will stay the course as long as I can.

Jesus, I'd have to throw myself off a cliff if I were ever married to a nasty shrew like you. Death would be better than 30 years of a torturous marriage to your toxic ass.

Well, there are lots of American women for you then.

My Trinidadian wife is a drill sergeant. Demanding as hell because she loves me. When I had prostate cancer, she damn near became an expert. Rode me and my doctors til I was cancer free. Never shamed me about ED. Didn’t try to leave. But let me sit on the couch and complain? Hell no. She had me jogging three weeks out of surgery.

These foreign gals aren’t in it to spend your money and run. They commit and put in 150%. You’d better do the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The responses in this thread are just proving the immigrant PP right.

She’s saying stand up, work hard, and don’t be a victim. What sane person can really disagree with that?

You’re all overreacting because she didn’t say it nicely and kiss your ass. We’ve become a nation of oversensitive snowflakes.

No we are annoyed because she's conflating Depression which is a chemical imbalance/illness with being lazy. Oh lemme guess you don't believe it's truly a medical problem. Well thousands of medical professionals all over the world do but thanks for contributing to the stigma that stops people getting treatment.

Depression is biological. Facts. Deal with it, Boomer.

A lot of lazy people claim depression. Facts. You can sit around crying and mad at a stranger on the internet though. Not my problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly I can see how this “not having kids” phenomenon is popular. The younger people in my office (late 20-30s) are way too pessimistic, self-absorbed, and unusually emotionally immature. I honestly doubt many could handle the challenges of parenting.

They are also typically in therapy. I wonder if their therapist plants the seed steering them away from parenthood?

Actually, I find that that are in therapy to be very emotionally mature. Everyone should be mature enough to go through therapy and it would be more of a red flag to marry someone who hasn’t been through therapy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it is because women and men are more lazy. I say that as my mother in law and father in law both with HS degrees had there kids.

My father in law after first took a part time job 20 hours a week after his full time job, they both a single failing house with two “boarders” in house in upstairs of cape. They rented rooms. They never went out to eat and mom went back to work when youngest turned 12.

Today most men would not get a second job, take in a boarder or skip luxuries a few years so wife could stay home and have three kids. They just whine and watch Netflix and play fortnight whine they hire gardeners, gutter cleaners. and handymen to do their work whine their wife struggles to work full time and raise kids. No wonder women are pushing back.

This is very true. American men are absurdly lazy. I’m an immigrant woman who married an American man and this laggard is bringing down the family. He combines very high living standards with very poor work ethic. I was working in very lucrative job when we married and so was he. Two special needs kids later, we are in a diminished financial position. I am the one who suffered complications giving birth to them and who does most of the childcare, yet I am undaunted. I stick to a budget and I have a side gig that is bringing in $2000-3000 extra per month. It never occurred to me to give up.

In contrast, my husband’s expenses have gone up as he has added a therapist to coach him through the depression that no longer having it easy has apparently caused him. He insist that he went to school for only one thing, so he can’t learn new skills or even help grow my side gig. He works only 9-5 and mismanages his time so that his ranking in his sales job has steadily fallen. Soon, he will be unemployed and he has another thing coming if he thinks he’s going to live off me.

All of the men in my family are absolutely scandalized by how useless he is. All of the Americans in our friend group, however, applaud him merely for holding down a job despite his “depression.” People here just have very low standards for themselves. The concept of rising to the occasion just doesn’t exist in this culture—at least not among middle class whites.

Depression is an illness that can be debilitating. How dare you put it in sarcastic quotes. I struggle with it daily. Your attitude doesn't help him at all-- I don't even think you want to help him. You should divorce him if you don't have any respect for him. He would be better off without a wife like you who only values money.

Immigrant PP here. Don’t whine about depression to me, you lazy American. Laziness is what you’re suffering from. Do you want to know what depression is? Depression is losing two siblings to malaria and my mother to complications from childbirth because we couldn’t afford ordinary antibiotics. That’s my background. Now that I am a mother, I feel those losses even deeply. And that’s just a fraction of my story. In spite of that suffering, I get up every single day and fight to do what I have to do. Because I have responsibilities to others. I owe it to my children and my family to do my part. You Americans have no concept of owing others something. If you don’t feel like doing something for yourself, that’s the end of the story. It’s all about you. And that’s why your whole life collapses once one bad thing happens to you. You are quitters. Even your divorce answer is that of a quitter. My husband needs to get up and get to living. I will do my best to motivate him. I am not staying for the joy of him. I am staying to keep my children’s family together and because I still believe in him — concepts most Americans don’t understand. I would never ever marry an American again, but I made my bed with this one and will stay the course as long as I can.

Jesus, I'd have to throw myself off a cliff if I were ever married to a nasty shrew like you. Death would be better than 30 years of a torturous marriage to your toxic ass.

I guess you are illustrating PP points. You would throw your life away if you had a tough marriage. You couldn't handle it, too hard.

I will say that PP's children are likely to grow up 'Americanized' in that they will probably want to live like citizens of a first world country. PP's mind can't ever get out of the third world she grew up in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The responses in this thread are just proving the immigrant PP right.

She’s saying stand up, work hard, and don’t be a victim. What sane person can really disagree with that?

You’re all overreacting because she didn’t say it nicely and kiss your ass. We’ve become a nation of oversensitive snowflakes.

No we are annoyed because she's conflating Depression which is a chemical imbalance/illness with being lazy. Oh lemme guess you don't believe it's truly a medical problem. Well thousands of medical professionals all over the world do but thanks for contributing to the stigma that stops people getting treatment.

Depression is biological. Facts. Deal with it, Boomer.

A lot of lazy people claim depression. Facts. You can sit around crying and mad at a stranger on the internet though. Not my problem.

You sound depressed and angry. Get help.

[Anonymous]

My 2 older siblings are childless. 38 and 44. The holidays they spend watching Netflix and surfing Reddit. I am sad for them.