2 Year Old Dragged into Water by Gator at Disney Resort

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The sign doesn't really matter. The child was not swimming. Had the sign said "beware of alligators," it would have changed the behavior of the family. So, it seems as though the signage was inadequate.

Well this is subjective. I would see no swimming and stay away from the water. Clearly others need more explicit reasoning. But I also guarantee there are people who would see a sign that says beware of gators and still wade in that water if they didn't see gators AT THAT MOMENT. There is no way to know in this case if different signage would have made a difference. They may have hedged their bets anyway if no gator was in sight.

I see a sign that says no swimming and I don't let my kids swim. Maybe I let them walk along the edge because that isn't swimming and the risks of swimming don't seem to apply. I see a sign that says beware of alligators and we high tail it out of there. Of course it would make people act differently.

Stop focusing on the signage! Disney offers water sports on their property!!! They are selling their waters as safe for water sports.

Alligators (and most wildlife) stay away from waters where boating is happening. Too rough. Same with ocean activities.

Also inaccurate. Have you never been to the Everglades? Ever been on a Florida lake of any sort? They are everywhere. Also, you do not need to be in the water -- just near it.

Disney is guilty of fraud in my view. They have sold their brand as the safest, magical place on earth. Luring families with their famous proclamations of safety, when in fact they were guilty of weighing the PR costs of warning their visitors of the dangers around them with the monetary cost of actually protecting them.

You think Disney has committed fraud because its premises are actually magical???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's amazing that all these self-proclaimed smart and well-educated people are still alive since they need common sense spelled out on a placard. I guess walk - don't walk signs are made just for you.

Don't be a dumbass. Florida may be the Hellmouth, but it's not the center of the universe. There are other regions in the US besides the East and the South (I know - shocker!), and it's not a usual thing for most people to worry about danger literally at the water's edge at a premium resort if there's no warning about the nature of the actual goddamn danger.

That's what I hate about this fucking forum. I know about the dangers of alligators in Florida, despite the fact that I'm from the West Coast. I know about them because I research the hell out of everything before I travel. It's fun for me, and it's not something I expect that everyone would do. In fact, I'm sure my cautious behavior would get me a "helicopter mom alert - trying to protect her precious snowflake" on any other thread. You cannot win for being a parent around here, which sucks mightily. Isn't this a forum for parents?

Any ADULT with enough means to visit Disney who doesn't know about alligators in Florida are idiots. All bodies of water (except pools) are suspect. At night, doubly so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's amazing that all these self-proclaimed smart and well-educated people are still alive since they need common sense spelled out on a placard. I guess walk - don't walk signs are made just for you.

Don't be a dumbass. Florida may be the Hellmouth, but it's not the center of the universe. There are other regions in the US besides the East and the South (I know - shocker!), and it's not a usual thing for most people to worry about danger literally at the water's edge at a premium resort if there's no warning about the nature of the actual goddamn danger.

That's what I hate about this fucking forum. I know about the dangers of alligators in Florida, despite the fact that I'm from the West Coast. I know about them because I research the hell out of everything before I travel. It's fun for me, and it's not something I expect that everyone would do. In fact, I'm sure my cautious behavior would get me a "helicopter mom alert - trying to protect her precious snowflake" on any other thread. You cannot win for being a parent around here, which sucks mightily. Isn't this a forum for parents?

Any ADULT with enough means to visit Disney who doesn't know about alligators in Florida are idiots. All bodies of water (except pools) are suspect. At night, doubly so.

My cousin had an alligator in his pool. So I guess you don't know as much as you think you do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's amazing that all these self-proclaimed smart and well-educated people are still alive since they need common sense spelled out on a placard. I guess walk - don't walk signs are made just for you.

Don't be a dumbass. Florida may be the Hellmouth, but it's not the center of the universe. There are other regions in the US besides the East and the South (I know - shocker!), and it's not a usual thing for most people to worry about danger literally at the water's edge at a premium resort if there's no warning about the nature of the actual goddamn danger.

That's what I hate about this fucking forum. I know about the dangers of alligators in Florida, despite the fact that I'm from the West Coast. I know about them because I research the hell out of everything before I travel. It's fun for me, and it's not something I expect that everyone would do. In fact, I'm sure my cautious behavior would get me a "helicopter mom alert - trying to protect her precious snowflake" on any other thread. You cannot win for being a parent around here, which sucks mightily. Isn't this a forum for parents?

Any ADULT with enough means to visit Disney who doesn't know about alligators in Florida are idiots. All bodies of water (except pools) are suspect. At night, doubly so.

My cousin had an alligator in his pool. So I guess you don't know as much as you think you do.

Pools are excluded because the water is clear so the presence of wildlife is evident. Sorry I had to point out something so obvious. Geez.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's amazing that all these self-proclaimed smart and well-educated people are still alive since they need common sense spelled out on a placard. I guess walk - don't walk signs are made just for you.

Don't be a dumbass. Florida may be the Hellmouth, but it's not the center of the universe. There are other regions in the US besides the East and the South (I know - shocker!), and it's not a usual thing for most people to worry about danger literally at the water's edge at a premium resort if there's no warning about the nature of the actual goddamn danger.

That's what I hate about this fucking forum. I know about the dangers of alligators in Florida, despite the fact that I'm from the West Coast. I know about them because I research the hell out of everything before I travel. It's fun for me, and it's not something I expect that everyone would do. In fact, I'm sure my cautious behavior would get me a "helicopter mom alert - trying to protect her precious snowflake" on any other thread. You cannot win for being a parent around here, which sucks mightily. Isn't this a forum for parents?

Any ADULT with enough means to visit Disney who doesn't know about alligators in Florida are idiots. All bodies of water (except pools) are suspect. At night, doubly so.

My cousin had an alligator in his pool. So I guess you don't know as much as you think you do.

Pools are excluded because the water is clear so the presence of wildlife is evident. Sorry I had to point out something so obvious. Geez.

Ha! Sure! You are ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's amazing that all these self-proclaimed smart and well-educated people are still alive since they need common sense spelled out on a placard. I guess walk - don't walk signs are made just for you.

Don't be a dumbass. Florida may be the Hellmouth, but it's not the center of the universe. There are other regions in the US besides the East and the South (I know - shocker!), and it's not a usual thing for most people to worry about danger literally at the water's edge at a premium resort if there's no warning about the nature of the actual goddamn danger.

That's what I hate about this fucking forum. I know about the dangers of alligators in Florida, despite the fact that I'm from the West Coast. I know about them because I research the hell out of everything before I travel. It's fun for me, and it's not something I expect that everyone would do. In fact, I'm sure my cautious behavior would get me a "helicopter mom alert - trying to protect her precious snowflake" on any other thread. You cannot win for being a parent around here, which sucks mightily. Isn't this a forum for parents?

Any ADULT with enough means to visit Disney who doesn't know about alligators in Florida are idiots. All bodies of water (except pools) are suspect. At night, doubly so.

My cousin had an alligator in his pool. So I guess you don't know as much as you think you do.

Pools are excluded because the water is clear so the presence of wildlife is evident. Sorry I had to point out something so obvious. Geez.

Ha! Sure! You are ridiculous.

No, you are simple-minded. Why can't you think in complex terms?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I couldn't believe it when I read in an earlier post that Disney World now offers water sports, but holy cow they do!

I think that they are using the same lake to water ski, tube, etc. as this child was killed.

https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/recreation/contemporary-resort/sammy-duvall-watersports-centre/

See the photo in th bottom middle of the jet ski passing the Grand Floridian http://sammyduvall.com/

Then go to http://sammyduvall.com/personal-watercraft/ via links and note the PERSONAL LIABILITY release form. http://www.disboards.com/threads/swimming-in-seven-seas-lagoon.782688/

Kayakers in central florida have been attacked and lost arms.

Thanks for the above links. Here is a quote dated April 4, 2005 from the above disboard link:

"We have water skiied many times. Alligators lurk near the shore and not in the deep water or near motor boats. I remember coming in from the ski boat and heading off to Narcooses for lunch. When we came out, the ski boat was still docked, which was odd for April spring vacation. When I inquired as to why the boat was still there, I was told that they had to cancel the ski reservations for the afternoon because a large gator had been spotted in the ski area. It happens but in all of these years I haven't heard any guests be eaten."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All this talk about adequate signs! As if people actually pay attention to them? Really?

Go look at a Stop sign. It means "Stop". It is unambiguous. It does not mean "Slow Down, Someone Might be Coming". It means "Stop". And people ignore it all the time.

Tylenol has a warning. Don't take with alcohol. People ignore that all the time too!

Go to the beach. Caution Strong Current signs are routinely ignored and people who haven't the slightest idea what they're doing drown because they ignore the sign.

Maybe these people would have hightailed it away from the lake if it had a gators beware sign. I tend to doubt it, though.

I would bet that each one of you who complains about the lack of a warning sign routinely ignored warning signs putting you and your children at risk.

That's fine. If people don't pay attention to them, then that is their problem. Disney is covered.

If Disney does not put them up, then it *is* Disney's problem. And that is what we are saying.

Disney had inadequate signage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All this talk about adequate signs! As if people actually pay attention to them? Really?

Go look at a Stop sign. It means "Stop". It is unambiguous. It does not mean "Slow Down, Someone Might be Coming". It means "Stop". And people ignore it all the time.

Tylenol has a warning. Don't take with alcohol. People ignore that all the time too!

Go to the beach. Caution Strong Current signs are routinely ignored and people who haven't the slightest idea what they're doing drown because they ignore the sign.

Maybe these people would have hightailed it away from the lake if it had a gators beware sign. I tend to doubt it, though.

I would bet that each one of you who complains about the lack of a warning sign routinely ignored warning signs putting you and your children at risk.

That's fine. If people don't pay attention to them, then that is their problem. Disney is covered.

If Disney does not put them up, then it *is* Disney's problem. And that is what we are saying.

Disney had inadequate signage.

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The sign doesn't really matter. The child was not swimming. Had the sign said "beware of alligators," it would have changed the behavior of the family. So, it seems as though the signage was inadequate.

Well this is subjective. I would see no swimming and stay away from the water. Clearly others need more explicit reasoning. But I also guarantee there are people who would see a sign that says beware of gators and still wade in that water if they didn't see gators AT THAT MOMENT. There is no way to know in this case if different signage would have made a difference. They may have hedged their bets anyway if no gator was in sight.

I see a sign that says no swimming and I don't let my kids swim. Maybe I let them walk along the edge because that isn't swimming and the risks of swimming don't seem to apply. I see a sign that says beware of alligators and we high tail it out of there. Of course it would make people act differently.

Stop focusing on the signage! Disney offers water sports on their property!!! They are selling their waters as safe for water sports.

People do water sports on the Potomac but don't swim in it.

Inaccurate. People swim in the Potomac every day all summer. The Potomac also doesn't have predators swimming in the water. The other fact about gators is that they often lunge out of the water to strike their prey. Being in the water is irrelevant when gators are nearby.

Eww. Who swims in the Potomac? Where?

-NP

NP, but I have seen people swimming in it out by Leesburg, by the ferry that crosses over into MD ("White's Ferry"). Lots of families picnic on the MD side and then let their kids wade and swim around in the shallow water. There is even a little store on the MD side ("White's Ferry Store" where you can buy picnic food, rent boats, eat at the picnic tables, etc.) It seems to be a thing. I was shocked when I saw it too. We were taking the ferry from VA to MD.

[Anonymous]

Pretty sure I went wind surfing at the Grand Floridian back in the 80s. Never, ever worried or even thought about alligators.

Not sure if they still do that there...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Thank you, to my other lawyer friends who are helping to explain how the law, which has evolved over centuries, based on notions of fairness and common sense (yes! For real!), works here. Hotels, especially a hotel with a reputation like Disney's, cannot invite guests to movie-set looking beaches at night where the hotel knows there are alligators, throw up a "no swimming" sign, look the other way when children are near/in the water every night, and then claim people should know there are probably alligators (flesh eating bacteria, snakes, and other deadly hazards people have mentioned) when someone dies. If this family were at a campground, the Darwinian crazies on here would win, but they weren't. These are not new concepts or just differences of opinion. This is how developed society has decided, through the law, to treat these situations.

1+, Thank you. Can people who are not lawyers stop penning would-be treatises of the law? Offer opinions, yes, but legal opinions? This is 82 pages of ridiculousness.

+1000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reasons why don't really matter. Let's say a kid contracted flesh eating bacteria from this pond or toxic waste poisoning. Would Disney be liable for that because he went in the water against warnings not to?

The sign did not say stay awatly from the water. The sign said no swimming. The child was not swimming in the water. He was wading at the edge of the shore. Not swimming.

Here's a link to a parent who's child was wading in the same spot a half hour before Lane Graves was attacked. Looks like an inviting sandy beach that I bet most people walk right at the water's edge or wade in a foot.

http://www.scarymommy.com/boy-attacked-by-alligator-disney-resort/?utm_source=FB

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's amazing that all these self-proclaimed smart and well-educated people are still alive since they need common sense spelled out on a placard. I guess walk - don't walk signs are made just for you.

Don't be a dumbass. Florida may be the Hellmouth, but it's not the center of the universe. There are other regions in the US besides the East and the South (I know - shocker!), and it's not a usual thing for most people to worry about danger literally at the water's edge at a premium resort if there's no warning about the nature of the actual goddamn danger.

That's what I hate about this fucking forum. I know about the dangers of alligators in Florida, despite the fact that I'm from the West Coast. I know about them because I research the hell out of everything before I travel. It's fun for me, and it's not something I expect that everyone would do. In fact, I'm sure my cautious behavior would get me a "helicopter mom alert - trying to protect her precious snowflake" on any other thread. You cannot win for being a parent around here, which sucks mightily. Isn't this a forum for parents?

Any ADULT with enough means to visit Disney who doesn't know about alligators in Florida are idiots. All bodies of water (except pools) are suspect. At night, doubly so.

My cousin had an alligator in his pool. So I guess you don't know as much as you think you do.

Pools are excluded because the water is clear so the presence of wildlife is evident. Sorry I had to point out something so obvious. Geez.

not at night!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition to signs, there should be a fence around the lake.

Oh like we fence off oceans and forests?

Right? People are such idiots. Who needs common sense when someone can build a fence and think for you.

This is private property! Big difference. If you step in quicksand in a forest and die, too bad. If your neighbor has you over for a party and doesn't tell you there is quicksand in the backyard in a place that it looks pretty reasonable to walk near, then your neighbor will be liable if you get sucked in and die. You don't assume the risk in the same way. This concept has developed over centuries and makes a lot of sense.

Private property but the water feeds into other bodies of water in Florida which are NOT private. Why don't you get that?

And, using your analogy, if your neighbor doesn't tell you about quicksand but says not to walk in a certain area and you do, it's your fault. Your list of dangers don't have to be itemized.

How the hell would a random tourist from hundreds of thousands of miles away know whether the lagoon feeds into non-private bodies of water?