2 Year Old Dragged into Water by Gator at Disney Resort

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The sign doesn't really matter. The child was not swimming. Had the sign said "beware of alligators," it would have changed the behavior of the family. So, it seems as though the signage was inadequate.

Well this is subjective. I would see no swimming and stay away from the water. Clearly others need more explicit reasoning. But I also guarantee there are people who would see a sign that says beware of gators and still wade in that water if they didn't see gators AT THAT MOMENT. There is no way to know in this case if different signage would have made a difference. They may have hedged their bets anyway if no gator was in sight.

I see a sign that says no swimming and I don't let my kids swim. Maybe I let them walk along the edge because that isn't swimming and the risks of swimming don't seem to apply. I see a sign that says beware of alligators and we high tail it out of there. Of course it would make people act differently.

Stop focusing on the signage! Disney offers water sports on their property!!! They are selling their waters as safe for water sports.

People do water sports on the Potomac but don't swim in it.

Inaccurate. People swim in the Potomac every day all summer. The Potomac also doesn't have predators swimming in the water. The other fact about gators is that they often lunge out of the water to strike their prey. Being in the water is irrelevant when gators are nearby.

Eww. Who swims in the Potomac? Where?

-NP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All this talk about adequate signs! As if people actually pay attention to them? Really?

Go look at a Stop sign. It means "Stop". It is unambiguous. It does not mean "Slow Down, Someone Might be Coming". It means "Stop". And people ignore it all the time.

Tylenol has a warning. Don't take with alcohol. People ignore that all the time too!

Go to the beach. Caution Strong Current signs are routinely ignored and people who haven't the slightest idea what they're doing drown because they ignore the sign.

Maybe these people would have hightailed it away from the lake if it had a gators beware sign. I tend to doubt it, though.

I would bet that each one of you who complains about the lack of a warning sign routinely ignored warning signs putting you and your children at risk.

I can't believe you are equating a rolling stop with knowingly letting a toddler wade in alligator-infested water at night.

No, PP Is equating a rolling stop with UNKNOWINGLY letting a toddler wade in alligator infested water. Disney is notorious for controlling absolutely every element of the visitor environment. It would never occur to me (as a highly educated, attentive parent that has never lived in the American South) that a man-made lake with a beach and a lifeguard, surrounded by Disney resorts, would be alligator infested.

You are agreeing with me. The PP said that signage doesn't matter because people ignore signs and warnings all the time. I think it's ridiculous of PP to suggest that parents would go ahead and ignore alligator signs because they sometimes roll through a stop sign.

I agree that it is somewhat surprising to me that Disney didn't control this better. I am familiar with Florida's gators since I have done a lot of diving in Florida springs, but I always assumed that gators in Disney waters would be routinely removed if they were large and/or aggressive. They start getting territorial once they get to be a certain size.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The sign doesn't really matter. The child was not swimming. Had the sign said "beware of alligators," it would have changed the behavior of the family. So, it seems as though the signage was inadequate.

Well this is subjective. I would see no swimming and stay away from the water. Clearly others need more explicit reasoning. But I also guarantee there are people who would see a sign that says beware of gators and still wade in that water if they didn't see gators AT THAT MOMENT. There is no way to know in this case if different signage would have made a difference. They may have hedged their bets anyway if no gator was in sight.

I see a sign that says no swimming and I don't let my kids swim. Maybe I let them walk along the edge because that isn't swimming and the risks of swimming don't seem to apply. I see a sign that says beware of alligators and we high tail it out of there. Of course it would make people act differently.

Stop focusing on the signage! Disney offers water sports on their property!!! They are selling their waters as safe for water sports.

Alligators (and most wildlife) stay away from waters where boating is happening. Too rough. Same with ocean activities.

Also inaccurate. Have you never been to the Everglades? Ever been on a Florida lake of any sort? They are everywhere. Also, you do not need to be in the water -- just near it.

Disney is guilty of fraud in my view. They have sold their brand as the safest, magical place on earth. Luring families with their famous proclamations of safety, when in fact they were guilty of weighing the PR costs of warning their visitors of the dangers around them with the monetary cost of actually protecting them.

Don't worry. A new Happy Bubble has been shipped to you at Disney's expense. It'll keep all the meanies out.

[Anonymous]

one of the questions I would ask is how aware Disney was of the fact that there were alligators in that water

it's not coming to come to this because Disney is going to settle this out of court before it ever gets this far, but I'd be asking for documents and emails in discovery and it would be interesting to see to what extent Disney was well aware of the number of alligators in that water and made a deliberate decision not to upgrade signage

I think in most respects this was a fluke type event since it hadn't previously happened, but, on the hand, if there are upwards of 10 alligators in that lagoon at any one time, is it reasonably foreseeable that one might attack a child on the beach?

I certainly don't think Disney wanted this to happen because it obviously isn't going to help their image in any way (although I also can't see that anyone would cancel a trip to DW because of this either) but were they kind of crossing their fingers and hoping it wasn't ever going to happen?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The sign doesn't really matter. The child was not swimming. Had the sign said "beware of alligators," it would have changed the behavior of the family. So, it seems as though the signage was inadequate.

Well this is subjective. I would see no swimming and stay away from the water. Clearly others need more explicit reasoning. But I also guarantee there are people who would see a sign that says beware of gators and still wade in that water if they didn't see gators AT THAT MOMENT. There is no way to know in this case if different signage would have made a difference. They may have hedged their bets anyway if no gator was in sight.

I see a sign that says no swimming and I don't let my kids swim. Maybe I let them walk along the edge because that isn't swimming and the risks of swimming don't seem to apply. I see a sign that says beware of alligators and we high tail it out of there. Of course it would make people act differently.

Stop focusing on the signage! Disney offers water sports on their property!!! They are selling their waters as safe for water sports.

One person in over 40 years has died of alligator attack at Disney. Arguably the odds are quite good for water sports being safe. I also doubt water sports are offered at dusk/dark when the animals feed.

I know people are missing the fact that this is AN EXTREME ANOMALY

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's amazing that all these self-proclaimed smart and well-educated people are still alive since they need common sense spelled out on a placard. I guess walk - don't walk signs are made just for you.

You must be a real rube if you think walk/don't walk signs always correspond with the stoplights. You should come to the big city sometime.

And yes, I think a huge international resort that caters to children and families should have signage letting their guests know that predatory reptiles live in the murky waters where children might wander.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The sign doesn't really matter. The child was not swimming. Had the sign said "beware of alligators," it would have changed the behavior of the family. So, it seems as though the signage was inadequate.

Well this is subjective. I would see no swimming and stay away from the water. Clearly others need more explicit reasoning. But I also guarantee there are people who would see a sign that says beware of gators and still wade in that water if they didn't see gators AT THAT MOMENT. There is no way to know in this case if different signage would have made a difference. They may have hedged their bets anyway if no gator was in sight.

I see a sign that says no swimming and I don't let my kids swim. Maybe I let them walk along the edge because that isn't swimming and the risks of swimming don't seem to apply. I see a sign that says beware of alligators and we high tail it out of there. Of course it would make people act differently.

Stop focusing on the signage! Disney offers water sports on their property!!! They are selling their waters as safe for water sports.

People do water sports on the Potomac but don't swim in it.

Inaccurate. People swim in the Potomac every day all summer. The Potomac also doesn't have predators swimming in the water. The other fact about gators is that they often lunge out of the water to strike their prey. Being in the water is irrelevant when gators are nearby.

Eww. Who swims in the Potomac? Where?

-NP

Well, in front of the Georgetown University area for one where all the boats raft up together. People jump in and swim and sit in their tubes all day long.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:one of the questions I would ask is how aware Disney was of the fact that there were alligators in that water

it's not coming to come to this because Disney is going to settle this out of court before it ever gets this far, but I'd be asking for documents and emails in discovery and it would be interesting to see to what extent Disney was well aware of the number of alligators in that water and made a deliberate decision not to upgrade signage

I think in most respects this was a fluke type event since it hadn't previously happened, but, on the hand, if there are upwards of 10 alligators in that lagoon at any one time, is it reasonably foreseeable that one might attack a child on the beach?

I certainly don't think Disney wanted this to happen because it obviously isn't going to help their image in any way (although I also can't see that anyone would cancel a trip to DW because of this either) but were they kind of crossing their fingers and hoping it wasn't ever going to happen?

I am sure they were aware. And I bet you'd find that Florida Wildlife was aware too. And Florida Wildlife told Disney not to fuck with the gators. That the gators are not a danger and not presenting an issue. And Disney then said . . . OK Florida. Should we put up a sign? And Florida said, nope. Not necessary. Gators don't present a significant risk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The sign doesn't really matter. The child was not swimming. Had the sign said "beware of alligators," it would have changed the behavior of the family. So, it seems as though the signage was inadequate.

Well this is subjective. I would see no swimming and stay away from the water. Clearly others need more explicit reasoning. But I also guarantee there are people who would see a sign that says beware of gators and still wade in that water if they didn't see gators AT THAT MOMENT. There is no way to know in this case if different signage would have made a difference. They may have hedged their bets anyway if no gator was in sight.

I see a sign that says no swimming and I don't let my kids swim. Maybe I let them walk along the edge because that isn't swimming and the risks of swimming don't seem to apply. I see a sign that says beware of alligators and we high tail it out of there. Of course it would make people act differently.

Stop focusing on the signage! Disney offers water sports on their property!!! They are selling their waters as safe for water sports.

Alligators (and most wildlife) stay away from waters where boating is happening. Too rough. Same with ocean activities.

Also inaccurate. Have you never been to the Everglades? Ever been on a Florida lake of any sort? They are everywhere. Also, you do not need to be in the water -- just near it.

Disney is guilty of fraud in my view. They have sold their brand as the safest, magical place on earth. Luring families with their famous proclamations of safety, when in fact they were guilty of weighing the PR costs of warning their visitors of the dangers around them with the monetary cost of actually protecting them.

A placid lake vs a lake with lots of water sport activities are two different beasts.

People who check their common sense at the door are dangerous people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's amazing that all these self-proclaimed smart and well-educated people are still alive since they need common sense spelled out on a placard. I guess walk - don't walk signs are made just for you.

Exactly. I guess if they see a "No Crossing" sign, they will stand off the curb and then sue when they are hit. Since, being off the curb isn't "crossing."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The sign doesn't really matter. The child was not swimming. Had the sign said "beware of alligators," it would have changed the behavior of the family. So, it seems as though the signage was inadequate.

Well this is subjective. I would see no swimming and stay away from the water. Clearly others need more explicit reasoning. But I also guarantee there are people who would see a sign that says beware of gators and still wade in that water if they didn't see gators AT THAT MOMENT. There is no way to know in this case if different signage would have made a difference. They may have hedged their bets anyway if no gator was in sight.

I see a sign that says no swimming and I don't let my kids swim. Maybe I let them walk along the edge because that isn't swimming and the risks of swimming don't seem to apply. I see a sign that says beware of alligators and we high tail it out of there. Of course it would make people act differently.

Stop focusing on the signage! Disney offers water sports on their property!!! They are selling their waters as safe for water sports.

Alligators (and most wildlife) stay away from waters where boating is happening. Too rough. Same with ocean activities.

Also inaccurate. Have you never been to the Everglades? Ever been on a Florida lake of any sort? They are everywhere. Also, you do not need to be in the water -- just near it.

Disney is guilty of fraud in my view. They have sold their brand as the safest, magical place on earth. Luring families with their famous proclamations of safety, when in fact they were guilty of weighing the PR costs of warning their visitors of the dangers around them with the monetary cost of actually protecting them.

Don't worry. A new Happy Bubble has been shipped to you at Disney's expense. It'll keep all the meanies out.

Meanie? I'm hardly a meanie! I am outraged that Disney weighed the PR costs against the safety of their visitors. I have a great deal of experience with corporate liability and the cost of risk management to protect people. I am absolutely disgusted at Disney's gross negligence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's amazing that all these self-proclaimed smart and well-educated people are still alive since they need common sense spelled out on a placard. I guess walk - don't walk signs are made just for you.

Don't be a dumbass. Florida may be the Hellmouth, but it's not the center of the universe. There are other regions in the US besides the East and the South (I know - shocker!), and it's not a usual thing for most people to worry about danger literally at the water's edge at a premium resort if there's no warning about the nature of the actual goddamn danger.

That's what I hate about this fucking forum. I know about the dangers of alligators in Florida, despite the fact that I'm from the West Coast. I know about them because I research the hell out of everything before I travel. It's fun for me, and it's not something I expect that everyone would do. In fact, I'm sure my cautious behavior would get me a "helicopter mom alert - trying to protect her precious snowflake" on any other thread. You cannot win for being a parent around here, which sucks mightily. Isn't this a forum for parents?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The sign doesn't really matter. The child was not swimming. Had the sign said "beware of alligators," it would have changed the behavior of the family. So, it seems as though the signage was inadequate.

Well this is subjective. I would see no swimming and stay away from the water. Clearly others need more explicit reasoning. But I also guarantee there are people who would see a sign that says beware of gators and still wade in that water if they didn't see gators AT THAT MOMENT. There is no way to know in this case if different signage would have made a difference. They may have hedged their bets anyway if no gator was in sight.

I see a sign that says no swimming and I don't let my kids swim. Maybe I let them walk along the edge because that isn't swimming and the risks of swimming don't seem to apply. I see a sign that says beware of alligators and we high tail it out of there. Of course it would make people act differently.

Stop focusing on the signage! Disney offers water sports on their property!!! They are selling their waters as safe for water sports.

Alligators (and most wildlife) stay away from waters where boating is happening. Too rough. Same with ocean activities.

Also inaccurate. Have you never been to the Everglades? Ever been on a Florida lake of any sort? They are everywhere. Also, you do not need to be in the water -- just near it.

Disney is guilty of fraud in my view. They have sold their brand as the safest, magical place on earth. Luring families with their famous proclamations of safety, when in fact they were guilty of weighing the PR costs of warning their visitors of the dangers around them with the monetary cost of actually protecting them.

Don't worry. A new Happy Bubble has been shipped to you at Disney's expense. It'll keep all the meanies out.

Meanie? I'm hardly a meanie! I am outraged that Disney weighed the PR costs against the safety of their visitors. I have a great deal of experience with corporate liability and the cost of risk management to protect people. I am absolutely disgusted at Disney's gross negligence.

If alligators were attacking people all willy-nilly, you'd have a point. But since that's not the case...

[Anonymous]

I think Carl Hiassen once opined about tourists in Florida is you could put a sign out on U.S. 1 "come swim with the crocs" and people would pay to do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I couldn't believe it when I read in an earlier post that Disney World now offers water sports, but holy cow they do!

I think that they are using the same lake to water ski, tube, etc. as this child was killed.

https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/recreation/contemporary-resort/sammy-duvall-watersports-centre/

See the photo in th bottom middle of the jet ski passing the Grand Floridian http://sammyduvall.com/

Then go to http://sammyduvall.com/personal-watercraft/ via links and note the PERSONAL LIABILITY release form. http://www.disboards.com/threads/swimming-in-seven-seas-lagoon.782688/

Kayakers in central florida have been attacked and lost arms.